livy111us

Before I get started, it should be realized that not every reference to Jehovah in the OT is a reference to Christ. There are several instances where it is a reference to the Father. Read here for more info: http://en.fairmormon.org/Elohim_and_Jehovah To muddy the water even more, here is how Jehovah the son can be the Father: Topical Guide: God the Father - Jehovah Here is some stuff that I've collected which give MANY instances of Jehovah being the Son: Isaiah 12:2--This is one of the few places in the Bible where Jehovah is actually spelled out. It is usually replaced with the words God, or Lord in all capital letters. Isaiah says that Jehovah is salvation. Acts 4:12 says Christ is salvation. God is just and Christ is paying the price of sin to fulfill the law of justice. Only through Him can we be saved. Isaiah 44:6-- It says that the LORD, (all capital letters meaning Jehovah) is the first and the last. Rev. 22:13-- Says that Christ is the first and the last. Zechariah 13:6--This is a prophecy of the last days when the Jews see Christ and the wounds in His hands and realize that He is the Son of God. But in this verse, it says that it is Jehovah who was pierced in the house of His friends. (D/C 45:51-52) 1 Cor. 10:9-- Paul says not to tempt Christ as others have in the past because they were destroyed by serpents. It is speaking about the children of Israel and the brazen serpent (Num. 21:6-9) remember, Lord in all capital letters is Jehovah. How could the children of Israel tempt Christ if He was not Jehovah? Isaiah 33:22, Psalms 96:13-- This is Jehovah speaking and He says that He is our judge, lawgiver, and our King, and will save us. John 5:22 says that God the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to Christ. 　 John 1:23--This is John the Baptist testifying of himself that he is the one prophesied about in the book of Isaiah (Isa. 40:3) but the prophecy in Isaiah says that he will prepare the way for Jehovah, and John 1:23 says he’ll prepare the way for Christ. There is only one explanation, that is that they are the same person. John 8:56-58--This is a great scripture, Christ himself tells the Jews that He is Jehovah. He says "before Abraham was, I Am." Now, in Ex. 3:14, Jehovah gives Himself this name when speaking to Moses. And the term I Am used in John 8:56-58 is identical with the Septuagint usage in Ex. 3:14 which identifies Jehovah. (for more insight, see Zech. 12:10,13:6, Ex. 17:16 + 1 Cor. 10:4) Gen. 17:1--Jehovah told Abraham, I am the Almighty (Gen. 35:11) Rev. 1:8-- Christ told John: I am...the Almighty Isa. 41:4--Jehovah is the first and the last Rev. 1:11--Christ says He is the first and the last Hosea 13:4--There is no Savior besides Jehovah Acts 4:12--There is no Savior beside Christ Deut. 1:32-33--Jehovah accompanied Israel in there exodus from Egypt 1 Cor. 10:1-4--Christ accompanied Israel in there exodus from Egypt Deut. 10:17--Jehovah is Lord of lords Rev. 17:14--Christ is Lord of lords Is. 43:3--Jehovah is the Holy one Mark 1:24--Christ is the Holy one Psalms 36:9--Jehovah is light and life John 1:4,9--Christ is light and life Is. 48:17--Jehovah is the Redeemer Rom. 3:24--redemption is in Christ Jesus Psalms 80:1--Jehovah is a Shepard John 10:14--Christ is a Shepard Jer. 2:13--Jehovah is living water John 4:13-14--Christ is living water Is. 48:12--Jehovah is the first and the last Rev. 22:13--Christ is the first and the last Is. 45:11-12--Jehovah made the earth and created man (Isa.37:16) John 1:3--All things were created by Christ (Col. 1:16) Isa. 45:23-- Every knee shall bow and tongue swear to Jehovah Rom. 14:10-11--Every knee shall bow and tongue confess to Christ Zech. 14:5--Jehovah shall come with all the saints 1 Thess. 3:13--Christ shall come with all the saints Zech. 14:9--Jehovah shall be king over all the earth Rev. 11:15--The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord; Christ shall reign for ever and ever Is. 63:3--Jehovah tread the winepress Rev. 19:15--Christ tread the winepress. 1 Kings 11:29-39--This is the story of the Prophet Ahijah. The irony behind this is his name. In Hebrew it means ‘brother of Jehovah’. We might be able to brush it off if he were an apostate, but being a Prophet of God who wrote a scriptural book (2 Chron. 9:29), your own name couldn’t contradict what you taught. So according to Jehovahs Witnesses, this man was a brother of God, and not a son. Either God has a brother here on earth, or Jehovah does. According to our beliefs, it makes perfect sense. He, along with all of us, are brothers with Jehovah, or Christ. In Psalms 29:1 it reads "Give unto the LORD (Jehovah), O ye mighty, give unto the LORD (Jehovah) glory and strength". The Hebrew word for "mighty" in this verse is "Elim", Which according to Wilsons Old Testament Word Study, means "God, God of Gods, superior to and stronger than all other beings". So, the most superior God will give Jehovah strength and glory. which would be impossible according to the Jehovahs Witnesses. There are two possible answers to this, there is a God above the Jehovah God, or Father as they believe, or Jehovah is second in command to the one true God. Even the earliest Christian writers affirmed that Jesus was Jehovah. Justin martyr, Theophisus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, and Origin all insisted "that it was the Word (Jesus) who was revealed to man in the divine appearances of the Old Testament"(Apostasy from the Divine Church, pg. 48, 83) "All the texts in the Hebrew Bible distinguish clearly between the divine sons of Elohim/Elyon and those human beings who are called the sons of Yahweh (Jehovah). This must be significant. It must mean that the terms originated at a time when Yahweh was distinguished from whatever was meant by El/Elohim/Elyon. A large number of texts continued to distinguish between El Elyon and Yahweh, Father and Son, and to express this distinction in similar ways with the symbolism of the temple and the royal cult. By tracing these patterns through a great variety of material and over several centuries, Israel’s second God can be recovered." (Margaret Barker, The Great Angel, pg. 10) "What has become clear to me time and time again is that even over so wide an area, the evidence points consistently in one direction and indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense of the word. The roots of Christian Trinitarian theology lie in pre-Christian Palestinian beliefs about the angels. There were many in first-century Palestine who still retained a world-view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel [that of the first temple] in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh (Jehovah), the Holy One of Israel. Yahweh, the Lord, could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel or in the Davidic king. It was a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord." (Margaret Barker, The Great Angel, pg. 3) In a recent talk given by Margaret Barker, who didn’t really know anything about the Church until recently, said that in 1 Enoch, the writer mentions "lying words had been written, perverting the eternal covenant; sinners had altered the truth as they made copies, they had made fabrications and written books in their own name." (1 En.98.14-99.2; 104.10- 11). One example of a change, she says is that the "original temple tradition was that Yahweh, the Lord, was the Son of God Most High, and present on earth in the Messiah." She suggested this was one example of how "plain and precious things" have been removed from the scriptures, as mentioned in 1 Nephi 13:40. Justin Martyr wrote at the end of the first century: "But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 63, How God Appeared To Moses, this whole chapter is very good). He also said: "For at that juncture, when Moses was ordered to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites who were there, and while he was tending the flocks of his maternal uncle in the land of Arabia, our Christ conversed with him under the appearance of fire from a bush, and said, "Put off thy shoes, and draw near and hear." And he, when he had put off his shoes and drawn near, heard that he was to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites there; and he received mighty power from Christ, who spoke to him in the appearance of fire, and went down and led out the people, having done great and marvelous things; which, if you desire to know, you will learn them accurately from his writings." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:62, chap. 62 First Apology of Justin) 　 And also:"The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign...And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers,""(Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:184, chap. 63, First Apology of Justin) And again: "This same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man, and who appeared in human form to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses... Have you perceived, sirs, that this very God whom Moses speaks of as an Angel that talked to him in the flame of fire, declares to Moses that He is the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob? (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:226, chap. 59, Dialogue with Trypho) Irenaeus (115-202 A.D.) The Bishop of Lyons said that "all who known God from the beginning, and have foretold the advent of Christ, have received the revelation from the Son Himself...the Son...is that God who spake in human shape to Abraham, and again to Moses." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:470) He also said "And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people."[Exodus 3:8]" (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:419, chap. 6, Irenaeus Against Heresies) This scripture says that Jehovah said this, yet, it was taught by early Christians that it was Christ. He continued " But one and the same householder produced both covenants, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who spake with both Abraham and Moses, and who has restored us anew to liberty, and has multiplied that grace which is from Himself." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 4, chap. 9 Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:472) He also taught that Isaacs wife, Rebecca "received answer from the Word" (Against Heresies, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:493) And in speaking of the wisdom that God gave to Solomon, he said "these men despised that wisdom which proceeded directly from the Son of God. For Solomon was a servant, but Christ is indeed the Son of God, and the Lord of Solomon." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 4.27.1, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:499) Irenaeus said "no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush. And it would be endless to recount [the occasions] upon which the Son of God is shown forth by Moses. Of the day of His passion, too, he was not ignorant; but foretold Him, after a figurative manner, by the name given to the passover;" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies book 4, chap. 10, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:473) He continues "And the Word spake to Moses, appearing before him, "just as any one might speak to his friend." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:490) Lactantius wrote "When the Lord created the angels from the fire he decided to make one of them his son, he whom Isaiah called the Lord [Yahweh] of Hosts." (Found in Margaret Barkers The Great Angel, pg. 203) Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea said around 339 A.D. that "it is obvious that the patriarchs knew Gods Christ Himself, since He appeared to Abraham, instructed Isaac, spoke to Jacob, and conversed freely with Moses and the Prophets who came later." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:255) You may also find this link helpful: at http://ldsinfobase.net/rh/missn/mep_letter.html

Joseph Smiths statements placed the BOM from New York, Kentucky, Mesoamerica, to South America. Unless you espouse a Hemispheric geography theory, you cannot accept all of his statements as fact. Book of Mormon geography/Statements/Joseph Smith - FAIRMormon

I'd recommend watching these videos on revelation. They are not all that exciting, but have some excellent information: pt 1-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEt2ilVqFjE pt 2-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htyeoHdoZnw

I am also curious where the scriptural references are for God progressing in knowledge are.

Dang it, I keep making it worse

While we don't know exactly how they will progress (it does not mean that they will move from the permanent resurrected telestial body given them, and somehow change it to a terrestial body), I do believe that they can grow in certain ways, but that does not mean they can progress in glory. Since they will be serving others, they will increase in love, righteous desires, service, etc... I strongly disagree with your statement that God is still learning. If God is perfect and Omniscient, how could He learn more? Just to fit into what some consider to be eternal progression? To progress is a broad term and does not necessarily mean in knowledge. I've got an excellent quote that I can't find right now, but have several others from modern Prophets and Apostles explaining how God progresses: Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.14 Unfortunately, the omniscience of God in the minds of some well-meaning Latter-day Saints has been qualified by the concept of "eternal progression." Some have wrongly assumed God's progress is related to His acquisition of additional knowledge. In fact, God's "eternal progression" (if one is nevertheless determined to apply these two words to God) is related to the successful execution, again and again, of His plan of salvation to redeem billions of His children throughout His many creations. Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.14 President Joseph Fielding Smith observed that God's progression "is in building worlds and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, . . . not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom, or love, for these things are, as the scriptures teach, in a state of perfection." (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1947, 1:169.) (Elder Joseph Fielding Smith observed that God’s progression “is....not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom,…” Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.12 - p.13 It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment—and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out "how" God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it. In any event, this great reality of omniscience will happily operate even if it is for us an unexplained reality! Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.18 One might multiply examples of this foreknowledge which grows out of God's omniscience, end upon end. Suffice it to say; we are safe in knowing that one of the perfected attributes of our Father in heaven is knowledge. No wonder the Prophet Joseph taught that if men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves. Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.20 Some find the doctrines of the omniscience and foreknowledge of God troubling because these seem, in some way, to constrict their individual agency. This concern springs out of a failure to distinguish between how it is that God knows with perfection what is to come but that we do not know, thus letting a very clear and simple doctrine get obscured by our own finite view of things. Personality patterns, habits, strengths, and weaknesses observed by God over a long period in the premortal world would give God a perfect understanding of what we would do under a given set of circumstances—especially when He knows the circumstances to come. Just because we cannot compute all the variables, just because we cannot extrapolate does not mean that He cannot do so. Omniscience is, of course, one of the essences of Godhood; it sets Him apart in such an awesome way from all of us even though, on a smaller scale, we manage to do a little foreseeing ourselves at times with our own children even with our rather finite and imperfect minds. Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, Vol 1, p.156 The Lord has stated that his progression is in building worlds and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and this goes on for ever thus increasing his power, dominion and glory, but not his intelligence or knowledge, or virtue, or wisdom, or love, for these things are, as the scriptures teach, in a state of perfection. {Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “that the Lords progression is not in his intelligence or knowledge”, in the Church History and Modern Revelation Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Eternal Progression. “It should be realized that God is not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness. He has already gained these things in their fullness. But he is progressing in the sense that his creations increase, his dominions expand, his spirit offspring multiply, and more kingdoms are added to his domains.”

Not sure what I did, see the next post

While there are some previous leaders of the Church who believed this, there are MANY more who taught against it. But the scriptures are the only canonized information we have on the subject and should be taken as the authority on the issue. The scriptures leave NO room for progression between kingdoms. Here are some quotes from past leaders and scriptures to show just that: There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. -George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, p. 172, October, 1945 "Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory," he maintained, "can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another" ("Three Degrees of Glory," discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, 22 September 1922). Elder Ballard's feelings were later shared and echoed by Elders Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?" Elder Smith posited. "The answer to this question," he continued, "is, No!" (Doctrines of Salvation II:31, emphasis in original). Elder McConkie forcefully remarked, "There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal world. Or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine" ("Seven Deadly Heresies", 1 June 1980, unedited). (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg.243-244) "Exaltation in the celestial kingdom will be granted to those only who enter and faithfully observe the covenant of celestial marriage. Christ says in unmistakable terms: In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase (D&C 131:1-4. Italics added.) He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! That means worlds without end. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." "They shall go away into everlasting punishment which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment." They are "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power" after the resurrection; they are the only ones who shall not be "redeemed" from spiritual death "in the due time of the Lord, [and] after the sufferings of his wrath." (D&C 76:37-44.) As Alma expressed it: "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) There are three kingdoms of glory in which resurrected men will be saved: the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees." The highest of these is reserved for those who gain eternal life. All others are damned in the sense that their progress is limited. There are restrictions placed upon them; they have reached the "end of [their] kingdom"; they "cannot have an increase." (D&C 131:1, 4.) Alma 34:33 I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. D&C 76: 12 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. D&C 131: 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. 2 Ne. 9:27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! ...remember [they're] awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.... (2 Nephi 9:46). 3 Ne. 28:34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receivith not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day; Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;...And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D/C 76:109-112) Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D/C 132:16-17) But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Hel. 13: 38) William Clayton Report WOJS pg. 359-361 The contention in heaven was Jesus said there were certain man would not be saved the devil said he could save them. he rebelled against God and was thrust down. Spencer W. Kimball taught "[There is no] progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50) In the final judgment, all the earth children of the Lord will be assigned places in one or the other of the three grand divisions or degrees of salvation, known to us from modern revelation as the three glories. Each assignment will depend upon the use the candidate has made of the opportunities placed before him on earth and elsewhere. "For they shall be judged according to their works" (D. & C. 76: 111). By his own acts each person has shown his fitness to participate in the activities of this or that glory. It would be useless to place him higher than his capabilities would permit, and unfair to place him lower. If placed too high, he would not be competent or happy there, nor could he be content if placed too low. The degree of salvation of necessity corresponds, under the merciful justice of the Lord, with the demonstrated worthiness, capacity, and capability of each individual. The final judgment is individual. Within each glory, however, there may be advancement. The law of progress may be utilized by every intelligence in the universe. Those who inherit the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial glories may progress, and progress eternally. But, let it ever be remembered that the power to progress is greatest in the celestial glory, and is decreasingly smaller in the lower glories. There can be no talk, therefore, of those in the lower places overtaking those in the higher, any more than an automobile traveling at the rate of twenty-five miles an hour can overtake one moving at the rate of fifty miles an hour. They who inherit the celestial glory will dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. They are kings and priests. From that glory issues the power of God, known to us as the Priesthood of the Lord. In that glory certain conditions of joy belong which are absent in the other glories. They who have inherited the lesser glories will receive a salvation so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man -- that has been revealed to us -- but, "where God and Christ dwell they can not come worlds without end" (D. & C. 76: 112). (John A. Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, p. 204.) We do not believe in deathbed repentance, or the second chance theory, why would we believe this? Does that also mean that the 1/3 of the spirits who were cast out will also receive the chance to get bodies and make it to the Celestial kingdom? Deliverance from hell is not admittance to heaven” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, 255–56).

I tried the fiber thing for a while and loved it. But it gives you A LOT of horrible gas. If you were away from civilization, I would recommend it. If not, you may be sleeping on the couch.

Here is a newer study I found: Female obese volunteers participating in a double blind study, and submitted to the administration of an oral presentation of hCG plus a VLCD, decreased specific body circumferences and skinfold thickness from conspicuous body areas more efficiently than Placebo+VLCD -treated subjects. Since a significant fat proportion from total body fat is subcutaneously located (50 to 65 percent, depending on sex and fat distribution), this hCG metabolic activity would result in a reduction of the total body fat mass, the main cause for obesity. We suggested that the combination of a VLCD and oral hCG could not only trigger clinically significant changes in subcutaneous fat stores but simultaneously decrease body weight and modelate body contour. 2. hCG oral administration proved to be a safe and effective procedure on obese treated volunteers. No side effects were observed in the course of the study. There are no reports in the literature regarding this administration route to compare our findings. 3. Compared to placebo treated subjects, volunteers managed with an oral administration of hCG coped more efficiently with daily irritating situations, were in a better mood, and handled home conflicts without stepping up family discussions. This study appears to contradict former conclusions on the issue of hCG and obesity. We attribute those differences to a different approach, including variables not assessed in former publications. UTILITY OF AN ORAL PRESENTATION OF hCG (human Choriogonadotropin ...- As always, there is contradicting studies in scientific papers. I'll let you know how I fare.

OK, now you are speaking my language. I'll look into it. I do, however, am weary to accept studies that are 30-40 years old. I'll see if I can find anything a little more recent. Also, I would like to see something on what weight is lost between placebo and HCG injections. HCG claims to keep you from going into starvation mode and eating away muscle. If true, then the placebo weight loss would include fat and muscle, while the HCG would be just fat. I forgot to add, one reference is wrong on HCG being banned in the US. It is not banned, but can be purchased, or prescribed by any Doctor, and is offered is many health clinics, supplement stores, etc...

I feel a little bad that this thread is becoming about me, and not the original poster. I obvious hold different views than several of you here. I believe that science has made it possible for us to be healthier. It does not replace diet and excercise as noted before. I do not eat fast food, drink pop, eat beef, desserts, etc....and generally eat healthy. I run about 20 miles a week, do P90X several times a week, as well as lift weights on top of other active recreational sports. I am not using anything in place of the basics. I haven't read the Journals wingnut provided, but am curious as to the context. HCG would be ineffective on it's own because it is only a couple of weeks. If you do not implement a healthy lifestyle, you'll gain all your weight back. That is something I don't plan to do. Wingnut, I'd love to see the references to the articles and see what they have to say. I also do not see ANY behavior that I've discussed as habit forming. Alli, the pills, are supposed to be taken with meals to bind to the fat. If you eat badly one day, you will need more Alli to stay on top of your fat content. I did not say that it is a free ticket to eat what you want because Alli will save you. That *may* be considered habit forming by some, but I don't see it that way. Do you think it would be healthier to take an FDA approved drug, or let your body absorb fat? To me, it seems obvious. Perhaps I'm a bit more liberal than others, but I think several people are making a big stink about nothing.

The product has been around for around 40 years I believe, but am not sure on how long it's been used as a diet product. So far, there have been no side effects, but who knows, Ephedra was "safe" for a while as well.

Thank you for your concern MOE. The HCG diet was created by a physician and is prescribed by physicians (I went the cheap route though). The 500 calorie a day IS starving yourself and will be the hardest part of the diet, but you do not go into "starvation mode". That is where the HCG comes in. It doesn't let you go into starvation mode, so your body is forced to get it's energy from stored fats. That is why you have such a significant weight loss. As for the extra pills, they are FDA approved and only bind to the fat in your food. They are not energy pills, or contain any dangerous drug. They to can be prescribed by your Doctor.

I think that is great advice from LDS.org. If most people would follow those principles, the world would be a much healthier place. I try to follow that as best as possible, but still do not see anything wrong with additional diets. Thanks for the clarification Beefche. I should have read your post a bit more carefully.

I agree, but it would be quite a stretch to say that HCG is against the WoW.

That probably would be best, but I'm not to worried about it. I'm still pretty young and don't feel it is necessary. Not that I wouldn't recommend it, but for me, I don't think I need it. As for the WoW, I would disagree it is against it. It definatly is not habit forming in any way. I am a lover of food (which can be against the word of wisdom) and it is a great sacrifice to go on so little of it. Thank you for your concern though.

I also excercise every day but hit a wall at about 210 lbs (I'm 6"3), so I've tried several diets. I like Fit for life and Body for life, but have found a few other diets that I love. Alli is the only FDA approved diet pill that I LOVE! You take one pill (I take up to 3) with every meal, and what it does is bind to the fat in your food. Every pill takes about 25% of the fat out. So when you make mistakes like candy bars and such, just pop a few extra. It will prevent your body from taking in a lot of the fat, and it will also give you motivation not to eat bad any more (I won't go into details, but the fat has got to get out somehow). Tomorrow I'm starting an extreme diet that would also be beneficial to you as well. It's called HCG. It's a hormone found in women during pregnancy that you inject IM daily for 23 days. It boasts of 1 lb a day weight loss (not muscle or water weight, but pure fat), something I would be VERY skeptical about, but have over a half a dozen friends who have done it and lost between 1-2 lbs daily. You get on a 500 calorie a day diet, and the HCG keeps your body from going into starvation mode. It's a VERY STRICT diet, so much so that if you even touch certain oils, use certain shampoos or toothpastes, you will not lose any weight and possibly gain weight. It sounds crazy and I didn't believe it, but since I've seen it with my own eyes in my friends who were on it, I have no choice but to believe it. HCG was created by a Doctor in Italy and is prescribed by Doctors for a chunk of change, around 300 dollars. I got 2 23 day doses for 80 here:Buy Hcg Pregnyl Online Now Again, I would never even think about ordering drugs online, but all my friends got there HCG from this site as well with no problem. Anyway, because you can only eat certain foods that equal to 500 calories, and not even touch others, you would have no choice but to stay away from the bad foods. Otherwise, there would be major weight gain. Oh, and the first two days of the diet, you are supposed to eat as much and as bad as you can before the 500 calorie diet starts. I can't weight for that part! Cheesecake here I come!

Here is an article that will answer you question: Corporeality of God - FAIRMormon

Hello Bluejay, I'm not sure how to do the individual quotes, so I hope you don't mind the format I use. You-What I have presented is physical evidence from genetics, as well as apologetics from cultural and geographical cues. What has been presented against me so far is third-hand hearsay. Me- I brought that up because it is a common argument for a North American setting. You are actually the first who doesn't take the Zelph incident as 100% reliable. I have no problem with it's authenticity, or i'ts unreliabilty. I actually believe that there were Nephites in the Great Lakes area, but the main text of the BOM happened in Central America. It will be nice not to do the quote war. You know, "Joseph Smith said....so I'm right!" deal. (BTW, Levi Hancock is a reliable source. His journal coincides with the accounts of 6 others who recorded the incident). I also don't care much about what others believe about BOM geography, but do have a problem with Meldrums methods and "science". You-Haplotypes are groups of genomes that contain a common collection of mutations in them. Haplotypes are highly correlated with ethnic groups, and can be clustered into haplogroups based on similarity between haplotypes. Haplogroups are highly correlated with broader patterns of ethnicity. X is a haplogroup, not a haplotype: the specific haplotype that Brother Meldrum is always on about is the mtDNA haplotype X2, which is present in the Great Lakes region of North America, as well as western Asia and eastern Europe. It's also present in a Middle Eastern community called the Druze, and this is the connection that Bro. Meldrum likes. Me- I am familiar with genetics and spent a year speaking with, and interviewing geneticists regarding DNA and The Book of Mormon. One common theme among them, the X has nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. But, population genetics is still a new science with new information being found every day. Because of this, we cannot rely on old research. The X is generally accepted to have come from the Middle East, but the timing is a little off by about 25,000 years. As you know, the X2a is ONLY found in the Great Lakes region, no where else in the world, it is exclusive to that area (even though previous studies have found it in Mexico). New research has found the X among the Altai people in Asia, it also shows that the X in America, actually came through Asia, across the land bridge, as a founding marker in the Americas. One recent study states: “Native American populations exhibit almost exclusively five mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups (A-D and X). Haplogroups A-D are also frequent in Asia, suggesting a northeastern Asian origin of these lineages. However, the differential pattern of distribution and frequency of haplogroup X led some to suggest that it may represent an independent migration to the Americas. Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models. Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis.” [[[Nelson J.R. Fagundes, Ricardo Kanitz, et al., "Mitochondrial Population Genomics Supports a Single Pre-Clovis Origin with a Coastal Route for the Peopling of the Americas," The American Journal of Human Genetics 82/3 (28 February 2008): 583-592]]] Ugo Perego, who probably has done more research on the X than anyone else (and LDS) writes in a study that came out only months ago: haplogroup X2a might have arrived from Beringia through a path that was different from that followed by the pan-American haplogroups. According to environmental and paleoecological data, such a path existed and was represented by the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets, which opened approximately 15 kya [5] or possibly was never completely closed [38]. Through such a corridor, where some glacial-refuge areas have been recently identified [39], X2a could have moved from Beringia directly into the North American regions located east of the Rocky Mountains. This latter scenario would imply that the X2a expansion in America occurred in the Great Plains region, where the terminal part of the glacial corridor ended, and is in complete agreement with both the extent of diversity and distribution of X2a observed in modern Native American populations.” [Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups, pg 4-5] Ugo Perego continues Since X2a is not found anywhere else in the world, it makes it difficult to trace. However, it is supported by a close Asian counterpart to the X2a called the X2e and is found among the Altai people. This mutation is actually younger "cousin” with a smaller genetic variation than the lineages found in North America. In other words, the Asian X2e is not ancestral to X2a being much younger in age and the result of a more recent migration event. This could be possible, as geneticist Ugo Perego points out, “the Asian ancestor of X2a could have disappeared due to genetic drift (it basically disappeared for not given cause simply because all the female lineages died out - a phenomenon to keep into consideration when studying ancient populations using DNA samples from individuals living today). Genetic drift (a naturally occurring event) and bottleneck (caused by the non-random extermination of millions of Native Americans) took place in the American continent after the first Paleo-Indians settled, began to multiply, and then encountered the Europeans.” (Personal correspondence with Ugo Perego 3-30-09) You-Suffice to say, if the Great Lakes model is misusing haplogroups, then all other models are torturing and adulterating them beyond belief. So, if you wish to argue against the Great Lakes model using genetics, academic integrity requires you to reject all the alternatives on the same grounds. Me- As I said, that is the exciting thing about population genetics, it is ever changing. I do not doubt the X2a was found in the Americas, only doubt that it can be used as evidence for The Book of Mormon. You-Second, in regards to Bro. Meldrum’s comments about weather, I can’t really remember what his argument was. Was it the one about the Nephites using snow in their metaphors? That actually seems quite legitimate to me: certainly a civilization in Central America (such as the Mayas) would not know what snow was, let alone be able to use it for comparative purposes. Certainly, it doesn’t refute the non-limited geography model, but you can’t really call this misusing evidence: Bro. Meldrum’s arguments have been mainly against other limited geography models, as far as I remember, anyway. Me- Actually, the only time the word snow is used is by Nephi when the Lehites were still in the Old World, where snow was not uncommon in the winter time (http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms/Snow) So it does not matter if the Maya knew what it was or not (even though they did). On the contrary, if the Book of Mormon happened in the Great Lakes area, we would hear more about snow. However, that is not what we hear about. Instead, we hear phrases like “heat of the day”, without any indication of a cold climate we would expect to see in North Eastern United States. The Lehites came from the Middle East, travelled years through the Saudi Arabian desert which has some of the hottest lands on earth, and then we only hear about the heat of the new land. If it were a new, colder climate, it would most certainly be mentioned. There are several stories in The Book of Mormon which Lund states, that just could not have happened in the North East. In Alma 14, Alma and Amulek were stripped naked and suffered “many days” (Alma 14:21,23). John Lund says “Amulek set the date as the ‘fourth day of the seventh month’ (Alma 10:6). The 7th month and the 4th day on a lunar calendar of twenty-nine or thirty days per month would be around September 27th. The day they were delivered from prison was ‘on the twelfth day of the tenth month’ (Alma 14:23). This would have been approximately ninety-six days later. This date corresponds to around the first week of January. The minimum amount of time they would have spent in that condition would have been five days (Alma 14:18, 20, 23-28).” Pg 207. The average temperature in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, the area where some place Zarahemla which is by the Genesee and Niagra rivers, two rivers some interpret to be the river Sidon, has an average temperature of 31 degrees F during the day, with a nighttime average of 19 degrees F. This is hardly an area that would sustain life for someone cast into a cold prison without any clothing or blankets for “many days”. However, the average temperature in the Mesoamerican lowlands is in the mid-sixties. This temperature would make it much more plausible for someone to survive in extreme conditions. We don’t see the clothing one would wear, that is consistent with the climate of North America. To the contrary, we see them wearing “loincloths”, “leathern girdles”, etc… Dr. Lund also makes the observation that the clothing worn in the Great Lakes region would not be conducive to the weather. The Lamanites would not have survived, or even thought about wearing a loincloth in battle, in an area that is known for it’s freezing winters, and copious amounts of snow. Enos describes the Lamanites as “wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins” (Enos 1:25). Zeniff portrayed the Lamanites as having “their heads shaved and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins.” (Mosiah 10:8). Alma said the Amlicites “had not shorn their heads like unto the Lamanites. Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins.” (Alma 3:4-5). Zarahemnahs army is described as being “naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites.” (Alma 43:20). Because of this “nakedness”, the Lamanites were exposed and had a higher death rate than the Nephites (Alma 43:37). Moroni said this of speaking about the Nephites: “Behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites.” (Alma 44:18). Giddianhi, the leader of the Gadianton robbers, and his army wore “…lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn…” (3 Nephi 4:7) These wars were not seasonal, but sometimes lasted for years and were one continuous war (Alma 51-62). The Lamanites came to war in the sixth month (April according to the Hebrew calendar, 3 Nephi 4:7), and in the commencement of the year (April according to the Hebrew calendar) and at the end of the year (March, according to the Hebrew calendar) (3 Nephi 4:1; 3 Nephi 2:17; Alma 56:20). In the “second month”, the fathers of the stripling warriors brought them provisions (Alma 56:27) before a commencement of a battle in the “seventh month” (Alma 56:42). (Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon: Is This the Place?) Again, I don't care what others believe about BOM geography, but only have problems with Meldrums methodology.

A definite possibility. It could have been revealed just before his death, and modern GA's could know as well. The thing I have a problem with is people (like Meldrum mentioned before) who use JS statements as the ultimate guide to BOM geography. He has not studied early statements enough, or closes his eyes when it comes a statement that disagrees with him. I like these quotes on not knowing the geography: “If [the Lord] wants the geography of the Book of Mormon revealed, He will do so through His prophet, and not through some writer who wishes to enlighten the world despite his utter lack of inspiration on the point. Some authors have felt ‘called upon’ to inform the world about Book of Mormon geography and have published writings giving their views. These books, however, are strictly private works and represent only their personal speculations.” (Deseret News, July 29, 1978, Church News Section, p.16.) In an article written by Elder George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency in 1890 he noted that there was wide disagreement at the time among students of the Book of Mormon as to the locations of Book of Mormon events. “The First Presidency have often been asked to prepare some suggestive map illustrative of Nephite geography, but have never consented to do so. Nor are we acquainted with any of the Twelve Apostles who would undertake such a task. The reason is, that without further information they are not prepared to even to suggest. The word of the Lord or the translation of other ancient records is required to to clear up many points now obscure . . . . Of course, there can be no harm result from the study of the geography of this continent at the time it was settled by the Nephites, drawing all the information possible from the record which has been translated for our benefit. But beyond this we do not think it necessary, at the present time, to go, because it is plain to be seen, we think, that evils may result therefrom”(George Q. Cannon, Juvenile Instructor (January 1, 1890); reprinted in The Instructor 73/4 [April 1938]: 159-60). What may those evils be? Meldrum is saying that the Churchs scholars are leading the Church astray, you know, the guys that write the Gospel Doctrine manuals. Possibly.

Are you referring to Stephens work? As I mentioned, he still taught a North American setting (and allowed it to be taught) after such statements like the Bernhisel letter. It wouldn't make sense to *know* where BOM events took place, and then teach something different later. He may have recognized some of the building structures in Stephens book from previous visions, but that did not keep him from including NA sites as BOM as well.

I agree it happened in Central America, but Joseph Smiths statements were all over the board, even after he read Stephens and Catherwoods book. He seemed to embrace a hemispheric geography theory, not a limited. He was just fine accepting Josiah Priests work as evidence (North America) as he was Stephens (Central America). He did not rebuke or correct anyone who placed The Book of Mormon anywhere in the Americas. This speaks volumes. I don't believe he had any revelation on the issue (obviously), and took what he learned about the ancient inhabitants and tried to make the connection with The Book of Mormon, which does not allow for a HGT for the main land for The Book of Mormon. Anyone who says that JS taught a North American geography, or a South American geography exclusively, is flat out wrong and hasn't studied the issue. We need to use The Book of Mormon as the ultimate guide, until/unless the Lord sees fit to reveal where these events took place.

Larry occasionally posts here, and will hopefully add to the conversation

Before you buy into Meldrums theory, I would recommend FAIR's review of his work. It is very shaky to say the least. Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography In the Levi Hancock account of Zelph, Joseph Smith places Ohio in the Land of Desolation. Desolation is one of the most Northern geographical areas in The Book of Mormon. That would place about 99% of The Book of Mormon South of that area, which would mean that Meldrums, and most other North American theorists geography is wrong. Joseph Smith also said that The Book of Mormon happened in Central America (notice that I do not say he totally supported one theory above the other, because he taught both). Meldrum attempts to dismiss the Sept. and Oct.1842 Times and Seasons comments on The Book of Mormon happening in Central America, with Quirigua being Zarahemla, by saying he was in hiding. However, that is only partially true. He still acted as Prophet, husband, leader, and editor during that time period (a simple reading of his journal will tell you that, or I can post it). He also said The Mexican records agree so well with the word of the book of Ether (found by the people of Limhi, which is contained in the Book of Mormon) in relation to the confounding of languages” Traits of the Mosaic History, Found Among the Aztaeca Nations, Times and Seasons, vol. III no. 16 Pg 819 and wrote a letter to Bishop Bernhisel thanking him for the book "Incidents in travel in the Yucatan", a book entirely about the Mayan: Nauvoo November 16, 1841 Dear Sir, I received your kind present by the hand of Er Woodruff & feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem & friendship which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.- In regard to the land referred to by you I would simply state that I have lands both in and out of the City some of which I hold deeds for and others bonds for deeds when you come which I hope will be as soon as convenient you can make such a selection from among those as shall best meet with your needs & feelings. In gratefull remembrance of your kindness I remain your affectionate Brother in the bonds of the Everlasting Covenant Joseph SmithTo Dr Bernhisel Dr Bernhisel care of Lucian R. Foster No 13 Oliver St New York (Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984], 501 - 502.) Among, many, many others. He misuses the X haplotype as evidence for The Book of Mormon, misuses weather/climate, geography, etc.... It is a horrible piece when looked at academically.