livy111us

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am obviously coming in the middle of a debate, and am not sure where you are coming from exactly. But, if you are arguing that the BOM does not contain the fulness of the Gospel because there are no Baptisms for the dead, 3 degrees of glory, eternal marriage, etc... Then I would argue that you are barking up the wrong tree. As noted above, the Gospel means, according to the D/C "repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:5-6.) If that is not your argument, please inform me what your argument actually is. Or better yet, do you have a link to the thread which started this debate? But, as a side note, it cannot be argued that it was not known about because we only have a small portion of what was written. Just because it is not mentioned in the abridged portion of the BOM, does not mean it wasn't written about in the many other volumes of scripture. We cannot say one way or the other until we have all the material in front of us. If you happen to get that, let me know. I'd be very interested in reading it :)

When we only have a small percentage of what was actually written, it's hard to say that it was never even mentioned in the New World. If we only have the Readers Digest version of the history of America, how much detail will we actually get on what went on?

The Book of Mormon as we currently have it? Or how about the original BOM before it was abridged from well recorded history of MANY people for hundreds of years, with the book of Lehi that never made it into The Book of Mormon, and the sealed portion? We only have a small percentage of what was actually written. Harold B. Lee said: "Now, our scoffers say, "How can you say that the Book of Mormon has the fulness of the gospel when it doesn't speak of baptism for the dead?" Some of you may have asked that question. What is the gospel as it is defined? Let me give you how the Lord defines the gospel, in these words: "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:5-6.) Wherever you have a restoration of the gospel, where those fundamental ordinances and the power of the Holy Ghost are among men, there you have the power by which the Lord can reveal all things that pertain to the kingdom in detail, don't you see, including baptism for the dead, which He has done in our day. That is what the Prophet Joseph Smith meant when he was questioned, "How does your church differ from all the other churches?" and his answer was simple, "We are different from all the other churches because we have the Holy Ghost." (See History of the Church 4:42.) Therein we have the teachings of the fulness of those essentials in the Book of Mormon upon the foundations of which the kingdom of God is established." Harold B. Lee, Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1996), 156 Book of Mormon/Contains the fulness of the gospel - FAIRMormon

I thought this was an interesting article on Impact Training, written by a someone who went through the training. It discusses the price, what exactly happens, and the impact it has on people. Impact Trainings, Hans Berger And Sally Berger | Rip-off Report #279191 I enrolled in the Impact Trainings several years ago and watched my quality of life decline dramatically until I finally pulled out. All the while my bank account was being drained as I paid for trainings that not only failed to add value but encouraged me to live and act in ways that tied me to Impact while disregarding everything else in my life. No rational or sane person would choose to be involved with the Impact Trainings if they were able to see what went on behind those doors before having to pay a fee and allow the trainers and staff to slowly condition them over a period of several days. When I finally realized what was going on around me I was forced to choose between continued involvement with the group or severing several close family relationships. Impact's marketing strategy makes it very difficult to leave because every trainee is enrolled by someone close to them and severing contact with the training means (in most cases) that the relationship will be severed as well. Impact begins initiating trainees into its community in the Quest training. When I attended the Quest training it cost $550. Quest consists of four days of mostly intense and degrading activities that are designed to teach trainees obedience to the trainer. Once that obedience has been established the trainers and staff are able to manipulate the trainees emotions at will. This emotional control is used repeatedly through out the rest of the series to keep people paying for more training and enrolling their family and friends. After several days of degradation and a final day where the Impact trainers begin to espouse the early stages of their religious beliefs, the Quest training ends with a "graduation" and a final activity where all of the Quest trainees are either enrolled into the next stage of the training or publicly chastised for "selling out". Summit is the second stage and cost $795 at the time that I took the training. Summit begins with a day of degradation where trainees are assigned "alternate names" such as "Daddy's Joy Toy", "Womb for Rent", "Still Nursing", "Pee wee pervert", etc and then required to visualize themselves dying and being placed in coffins because they do not deserve to live. The next 3 days involve building the trainees back up and further creating a strong sense of community inside the center by assigning people to small groups and requiring them to act out embarrassing skits (for example a group of heavy set women may be required to dress as cows, whales or belly dancers). Like Quest, the Summit Training ends with a graduation and hard-sell commitment activity designed to get people to pay for the next level. At this stage in my training there were several trainees who's finances were so tight that they resorted to begging for money from other people in the group. Lift-Off was the third stage of the training and cost $695 at the time that I was involved. Unlike the first two trainings, which were conducted over a 4 day period, Lift-Off consisted of 4 weekends that were spread over a 13 week period. The four weekends all had different themes, one of which was "enrollment weekend" where trainees went out as groups in an effort to fill seats at the next Quest training. Each Trainee in Lift-Off was assigned a specific staff member that they were required to call 3 times a week. Lift-Off was not as dramatic as the other trainings and as a result there were not as many break downs among the trainees. Lift-Off seemed to solidify much of the conditioning that occurred in Quest and Summit as well as provide a bridge between the first two trainings and the next series. After Lift-Off, trainees are encouraged to "keep their training alive" by volunteering to work on the staff in future Quest, Summit and Lift-Off trainings. Impact Trainings does not screen their volunteer staff at all. I was aware of several registered sex offenders that were allowed to be leaders over new trainees, one of them even staffed a training for teens. I knew of 4 staff members, in my 2 years with the company, who engaged in sexual relationships with trainees. Despite these egregious actions by staff members, I never saw Impact make any effort to screen their staff members for the protection of the new trainees. Since the Impact community claims to value love and forgiveness above all else, the lack of screening is justified by the "everyone deserves a second chance" philosophy. The next step for the trainees is to begin the "Trainer in Training" program. Trainer in Training 1 cost $1500 and was the first training specifically designed to influence the trainees' religious beliefs and spirituality. Hans Berger spoke openly in my training of his alleged communications with spirits. He also claimed to have worked in "Intelligence" for the US government. One of the processes in this training involves Hans giving detailed, non-biblical, accounts of the life of Jesus. Later on in the Trainer in Training series Hans claimed to have learned this information and the processes of the Impact Trainings themselves through face to face communicatons with Jesus, Buddha and other "Ascended Masters". Trainer in Training 2 cost $1800 and further developed the trainees belief that they had the power to create miracles and talk with the deceased. Many trainees at this stage begin to revere Hans Berger as a prophet. The Impact trainers would periodically make statements such as "Hans is not a Prophet" or "Impact Trainings is not a religion" but those statements only served to change the trainees' language as they still continue to build their lives around every word that came out of Hans' mouth. The Impact Trainings is a manipulative self improvement training that grows into a religious cult where the trainers act like gods among men. I personally heard Hans state on several occasions "I am God". If you are considering attending the Impact Trainings I highly recommend consulting a trained and licensed therapist. In my 2 years of involvement with the training I never saw anyone leave the group in a state of emotional health. Those that stayed continued to pay large amounts of money to the group and spend several weeks each year providing free labor on the volunteer staff. Former Impacter Taylorsville, Utah U.S.A.

Personally, I think they are referring to a group in Utah formerly called "Harmony", now called "Impact Training". Here is the letter from the First Presidency with the things that they do which you should avoid, followed with how Impact Training does those exact things. LDS Church News - Members counseled about self-awareness groups “Policies and Announcements,” Ensign, Sept. 2001, 78 The First Presidency sent the following letter, dated 11 May 2001, to General Authorities; Area Authority Seventies; stake, mission, and district presidents; and bishops and branch presidents, to be read in sacrament meeting. It has come to our attention that some commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like by participating in their programs are implying Church endorsement. Such claims are untrue and unfounded. The Church has not endorsed any such enterprise. Neither should the Church’s failure to formally challenge any such enterprise coming to its attention be construed as a tacit endorsement or stamp of approval. We repeat the counsel set forth in the Church Handbook of Instructions, page 157: “Church members should not participate in groups that: “1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one’s potential. “2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies. “3. Foster physical contact among participants. “4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours. “5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings. “6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other parties.” We strongly counsel against affiliation with any such group and warn against believing any claim of Church approval, tacit or otherwise, by any private organization offering “experiential” or “empowerment” training.” From Impact Trainings website: “The Impact Trainings are unique in this world. Each training is targeted at a different aspect of life and is designed to empower the human spirit toward a free, unconditional loving and joyful life.” “Our purpose is to provide experiential trainings that will assist you in taking on your life” “For the fifth time since 1989, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is warning its members to stay clear of such personal empowerment programs. The governing First Presidency recently issued a statement saying the church does not endorse "commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like.’… Meetings can go past midnight. Participants are paired with "buddies," often of the opposite sex, rather than their spouses, and hugging is encouraged. Some Harmony practices, such as foot washing, are similar to rituals occasionally performed in LDS temples and often in other Christian churches.” (Self-Awareness Groups Have LDS Church Feeling Edgy, The Salt Lake Tribune/June 23, 2001 By Peggy Fletcher Stack) Quoting the First Presidency with commentary of what Impact Training practices: 1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one's potential. As a part of the Lift Off training, trainees are asked to write a letter to a family member describing all of the ways that their relationship has been disfunctional in the past. As a "Plus One" challenge, trainees are told to mail or read the letter to that family member. While the intent of the exercise is to foster an improved relationship, the act of mailing or reading the letter definitely "advocates unwarranted confrontation as a means of reaching one's potential." Both of my adult children who have attended these seminars have engaged me in what I would easily consider "unwarranted confrontation" as a direct result in their participation in the Impact Training Seminars. I have had lengthy conversations with both of my kids regarding negative memories that re-surfaced as a result of their training, whether real or imaginary. My adorable mid 20's age son, with whom I have always had a very loving relationship, accused me of spanking him at an early age, and he claimed he remembered the spankings as part of his Impact Trainings. I NEVER in my life laid a hand on my son, but now he claims that he remembers me spanking him. At the recommendation of the staff at Impact and through "meditation and reflection" she "remembered" that her father had sexually abused her repeatedly throughout her entire life but she had repressed each incident (she claimed that there were hundreds) until her trainings allowed her to deal with the "memories". She claimed that she was molested in LDS temples, churches and other extremely unlikely places. Soon after Debbie's "memories" began resurfacing she started taking her children to see the TIT3 power coach and they started to experience "repressed memories" about their grandfather as well. 2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies. As a part of the Summit Training, trainees are encouraged to wash each others' feet as a part of a particular process. This is an obvious imitation of a rite or ceremony that is sacred to people of many faiths. Impact Training Has "sacred" Trainer in Training 3 rites and influences. When I went to my children's graduation from Quest, I noticed jewelry for sale in the lobby. I saw a specific hand symbol, or sign, on several of the pieces of Jewelry. When I asked the young woman who was selling the jewelry about the hand sign, and what it meant, she told me that it was a secret that I could only learn if I took the trainings. I later learned the meaning of this secret sign of the hand. Those of you who have gone through an LDS endowment ceremony may recognize the similarity in the hand sign, and one that is given in the Temple. Additonally, when I asked the employees of the Impact Training Facility specific questions regarding what goes on the training seminars, they told me that they could not tell me what was being taught in the seminars, because the information was secret. 3. Foster physical contact among participants. Hugging and other physical contact is encouraged and expected. When I attended my children's graduation, I was amazed at the lack of boundaries that the participants had, in regards to giving and receiving full body hugs. After the graduation was over, it seemed as if the entire auditorium was melting into one big group hug. Males hugged males, females hugged females, males hugged females, etc. And some of the hugs were not just quick, grandmother type hugs, but long, full body hugs. In my opinion, the use of the graduation for a big hug-fest, even among strangers, was in clear violation of the warning regarding "physical contact among particants." 4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours. Most of my core trainings and nearly all of my TIT trainings ended long after midnight. A quick visit the main informational and advertising website for the Impact Trainings Seminars provides easy proof of what I consider to be a violation of this warning. Both Quest and Summit training weeks include a starting time of 11:30 am, and an ending time of 11:30 pm, on a daily basis. My daughter said that the ending time was only a "suggested" ending time, and that her group stayed until at least midnight, or 1:00 in the morning, on a routine basis during both Quest and Summit. Even the graduation started at 9:30 on a Saturday night, and I had had enough by 11:00 pm, and left. I have been told that the graduation ceremonies, and the meet-and-greet part afterward, may extend as late as midnight, on a routine basis. 5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings. In the first day of the Quest Training, I was asked to disclose my "deepest and darkest secret" to another member of my training group. I do not wish to violate confidences that my daughter has shared with me, but she reported to me that the trainers sometimes push the participants to work through their pain, and their issues, by publicly disclosing personal or painful information with the group. 6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other partners." Husbands and wives were paired with other partners at every level of the core trainings, often with another member of the oposite sex. Some Graduates of Impact Training claim that Impact has a letter from the First Presidency saying that their admonition to avoid groups like Impact, was not actually referring to Impact, but to other groups. Some go as far to say that this letter is an endorsement from the First Presidency regarding Impacts methods and training. Perhaps this is why the First Presidency stated “It has come to our attention that some commercial enterprises promising heightened self-esteem, improved family relationships, increased spirituality and the like by participating in their programs are implying Church endorsement. Such claims are untrue and unfounded. The Church has not endorsed any such enterprise. Neither should the Church’s failure to formally challenge any such enterprise coming to its attention be construed as a tacit endorsement or stamp of approval.” However, after obtaining a copy of this letter, neither explanation fits what is the letter actually says. It reads: Dear Brother Berger: I have been asked to acknowledge your letter of March 11, 1990, to the First Presidency. The Church’s Bulletin item on self-awareness groups offers general information for the use of priesthood leaders and members of their wards and stakes. No groups were mentioned by name in the item. It is the responsibility of each member to educate himself about such matters so he can make an informed judgment whether to associate with such a group, and whether the group’s practices and procedures meet his standards. In view of the above, it would not be feasible to arrange for you to meet with the First Presidency about your particular business. I also have been asked to extend best wishes to you, and to advise you that a copy of this response has been forwarded to your stake president for his information. Sincerely yours, F. Michael Watson Secretary of the First Presidency Better Business Bureau says this about Impact: Harmony Institute | Better Business Bureau Review | Salt Lake City, UT “This company offers training that is commonly referred to as Large Group Awareness Training programs or LGAT. Training of this type often involves dozens or hundreds of participants in intense instruction aimed at discovering what is hindering participants from achieving their full potential in life. Programs of this type have gone under the names, EST, Insight Seminars, Phoenix 2000, Mind Dynamics, Landmark Forum, Lifespring, The Forum, Momentus, Impact Training, Discovery Training and Harmony. While promoters of these programs provide testimonial evidence of their program successes, few if any of these programs have attempted to test their processes in order to substantiate claims that might establish a degree of effectiveness to their methods. Few if any have established criteria for what counts as a success, and few if any keep records or report "failures" or those who feel they didn't receive promised results, or perhaps were harmed by the program. Those attending the seminars or training have reported that part of the process is a "tearing down" of the individual which includes being subjected to verbal abuse, insults, ridicule or humiliation. The BBB has been presented with complaints from participants indicating that they experienced psychological disturbances or episodes as a side-effect of the training. Studies done by mental health professionals have also identified this possible side effect of the training. Because these seminars are presented as education, trainers and presenters are not required to be licensed as mental health professionals in many states, inluding Utah. However the focus of the training is clearly behavioral, psychological and personal relationships. We advise consumers to obtain references from skilled, trained mental health professionals regarding the benefits, efficacy, and possible side effects of such training prior to making their own decision to purchase the training, or participate.” My wife attended this before we met, and can confirm that Impact does every single one of these. BTW, the people who run Impact are no longer members, and have actually been jailed for a time. Failure to pay taxes I believe.

I think The Book of Mormon is true, and find the evidence compelling in its behalf. But if someone does not believe it is true, they will find evidence for that belief. There will always be naysayers, despite the evidence. Just look at Laman and Lemuel. They heard the voice of the Lord, saw an angel, were shocked, and witnessed miracles. Yet, they still did not believe. But, here are some valid convergences that are found in the BOM and Mesoamerica Hermounts is mentioned in Alma 2:37-38 and reads “Yea, they were met on every hand, and slain and driven, until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts; and it was that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts.” “And it came to pass that many died in the wilderness of their wounds, and were devoured by those beasts and also the vultures of the air; and their bones have been found, and have been heaped up on the earth.” Hugh Nibley made the connection between Hermounts in The Book of Mormon and Egypt But a connection can also be made between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon. Hermounts was a place that was overrun with wild beasts, Mormon even thought it necessary to add “ravenous beasts”. Tehuantepec would seem to fit this description nicely, as the Nahuatl word for Tehuantepec literally means “hill of the Jag uar”, or hill of the wild beast. Lawrence Poulsen writes “The almost exact correlation in meaning for Tehuantepec and Hermounts suggests that the wilderness of Tehuantepec is an ideal candidate for the Book of Mormon wilderness of Hermounts.” Another interesting point is that the jaguars, or “wild beasts” of Tehuantepec were known to be more ravenous than other jaguars. There is a legend about the hill which Tehuantepec is built contained “Jaguars of a particularly bloodthirsty type infested the hill, killing and terrorizing the inhabitants.” It would make sense that Mormon made it a point to say that this area was “infested by wild and ravenous beasts” and “devoured” human flesh, if in fact, it was the same area. One problem we have when it comes to the New World and The Book of Mormon is that there have been very few qualified people who have commented on it. I believe that in the past, many people have avoided New World scholarship and The Book of Mormon because of remarks like Hugh Nibleys on the issue who purportedly said when speaking about it that “I wouldn’t touch it with a forty foot pole”. If one of the greatest scholars in the Church didn’t dare delve into New World scholarship, how intimidating would it be for other scholars or amateurs to take on this huge task? Since then, there have been several scholars who have opened the door to New World scholarship and The Book of Mormon. The works of John Sorenson, John Clark, Brant Gardner, Mark Wright and others have shed new light on, and have placed The Book of Mormon in a cultural context where stories that don’t make much sense in the text, begin to make sense when looked through a Mesoamerican lens. Brant Gardner and Lawrence Poulsen are a few of the people who have made several of these parallels, or even stronger connections called convergences. Biblical scholar William Dever describes convergences as thus: “Whenever the two sources or ‘witnesses’ happen to converge in their testimony, a historical ‘datum’ (or given) may be said to have been established beyond reasonable doubt. To ignore or to deny the implications of such convergent testimony is irresponsible scholarship, since it impeaches the testimony of one witness without reasonable cause by suppressing other vital evidence.” A convergence is not only a parallel between two items, but a correlation between text, time, culture, and sometimes even geography, that converge together and testify of the same thing. It is the connecting of dots from hints made in The Book of Mormon, with archaeology until a masterful picture begins to emerge from the text. One example can be found in Alma 25. The story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, as described by Brant Gardner, is one that doesn’t make much sense in the present form. But, when viewed through the lens of Mesoamerican culture, makes perfect sense. In this story, we have a group of people who converted to the Lord and then, because of their new religion, covenanted no longer to commit “murder” and buried their weapons of war in the ground. Later, the Lamanites attacked the city in an effort to destroy the king and “place another in his stead.” The Anti-Nephi-Lehies would not take up their arms they buried in the earth to defend themselves, and in consequence, many were slaughtered. The Lamanites were angry and redirected their warpath to the city of Ammonihah, which was a three days journey. It would seem to me that no matter how mad you were, you’d calm down after hiking through the jungles for three days, but do not and continue to Ammonihah and take captives. It is interesting that this is the only place in The Book of Mormon where it is specifically mentioned that the Lamanites took captives. Usually the Lamanites destroy the city or place it under a tribute system. When looked at in a Mesoamerican culture, this story makes perfect sense. Why did the Anti-Nephi-Lehies bury their weapons? There is a Mesoamerican tradition of caching goods you have given to the gods, when you make a commitment to the gods, you bury the offering in the earth. Most of the time when you cached an item in Mesoamerica, you broke it first. So they broke the weapons and buried them. Why didn’t they dig them up? They were broken. They were symbolically broken as a witness you were giving them over to God. In regards to the Lamanites, Brant Gardner relates: “As part of the coronation of a new king in Mesoamerica “the king went to war to take captives for use in sacrificial rituals.” “The attacking Lamanites have dethroned Lamoni’s brother (King Anti-Nephi-Lehi) and must install a new king. For this particular ritual they need sacrificial victims who have been taken in battle. The pacifism of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies has denied the right kind of captives; hence, the Lamanites have to find someone who will actually fight back and therefore set their sites on Ammonihah. But why Ammonihah? Martin and Grube help us understand why the sneak attack on an unsuspecting Ammonihah would have been attractive to the Mesoamerican mind: “Like many a Maya ruler, Bird Jaguar’s mystique was closely bound to his image as an indomitable warrior. His favorite military titles, ‘He of 20 Captives’ and ‘Master of Aj Uk,’ were seldom absent for his name phrase and much space was devoted to his various campaigns. Yet a modern understanding of these texts shows just how lowly most of these victims were. He made immense capital out of minor successes and Yaxchilan’s reputation was a ‘conquest state’ only reflects how beguiling his efforts have proved.” The Lamanites were not full of blood lust as Mormon suggests. They were simply in dire need of war captives to make their coronation ceremony valid. To get them with as little risk as possible, they did what Bird Jaguar would later do—they looked for easy victims. Ammonihah looked like a quick easy conquest—far enough away to be unsuspecting.” Here are some articles you may like: BMAF Articles by Subject Matter | Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum and some videos: YouTube - bookmormon's Channel But, of course, this is a vast subject that you could spend years researching and still not find all of the correlations between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon, but it is a start. I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND John Sorensons book "An Ancient American Setting for The Book of Mormon" before ANYTHING else. It is the foundation when it comes to this subject. You can read it here: Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon by John L. Sorenson

It looks like the next scheduled fireside in Arizona isn't until August. You can sign up for the FAIR Journal on our website, LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage, for updates.

Since this is brand new for FAIR, we don't have all that much planned out. Soon we will have it scheduled out a few months in advance. But for now, we will be doing one at a time. I will try to get one a month set up, and then we'll go from there. Actually, I believe there may be one in Arizona that is ready to go. I'll get back to you.

Yeah, that is a problem. But the Stake we will be at has a rule that no meetings will go past 6:00 pm on Sundays. So in order to have enough time for the presentation, Q/A, and refreshments, we have to start at 6:00. Our next one will start a bit later.

We, hopefully, will be venturing outside of Utah in time. But since there is the greatest concentration of LDS in Utah, we are starting here, and will let you know through the FAIR Journal where we will be next.

This Sunday FAIR will begin hosting firesides throughout Utah and Arizona. Our first fireside will be Author Michael R. Ash on “Enlarging One’s Testimony with Answers and Evidences”. Michael is the author of Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One’s Testimony In the Face of Criticism and Doubt, Of Faith and Reason: 80 Evidences Supporting the Prophet Joseph Smith, and writes a weekly article “Challenging Issues, Keeping the Faith” in the Mormon Times. Michael is also on the management team at FAIR, has spoken at many FAIR conferences, and has helped many people who have struggled with their faith. This fireside will be held at the LDS Church at 2841 W 1300 N in Clinton Utah, on Sunday October 24th, from 4:30-6:00 pm. Refreshments will be served. Mark it on your calendars and bring a friend. I have also attached a flier for the event. Feel free to download it and share it with others. Hope to see you all there!

I would love to see a drug addict out there with a sign saying that the Church is discriminating against those who are dependent on substances. Why can't the Church just accept it's drug users? God is a loving God and wouldn't stand up against those who are hooked on heroin. We are who we are. DRUG ADDICT PRIDE!!!!

Amen, brother. I can think of about a million things I'd rather be doing that sitting on a couch and watching someone else play a game.

Woodland Institute Encyclopedia of Mormonism Book of Mormon Research Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home Restoring the Ancient Church, Table of Contents Religious Studies Center : Browse LDS Scripture Citation Index Site:NTFootnotes - Feast upon the Word Online textual sources and materials - FAIRMormon LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

You shouldn't discount apologetics altogether. While nothing supersedes the Spirit, and argument should be avoided, it is sometimes necessary to provide an answer to someone who has had their faith shaken by anti-Mormon arguments. Here are some notes I have on the subject: “...Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...” 1 Peter 3:15 The term “Apologetics” means, “defending one’s position or faith” and comes from the Greek apologetikos, which is the Greek word used in the verse just quoted translated ‘give an answer’. Those who engage in apologetics are not apologizing for what they believe, but rather defending what they believe. And as Harold B. Lee once said “The term ‘Elder’ which is applied to all holders of the Melchizedek Priesthood, means a defender of the faith. That is our prime responsibility and calling. Every holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood is to be a defender of the faith.” (Conf. Rep. April 1970) Austin Farrar states in the ‘The Christian Apologist’-- “Though argument does not create conviction, the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.” That does not mean that we don’t study and find answers to their questions for investigators. Neal A. Maxwell has declared: “The Church” will not “be outdone by hostile or pseudo-scholars” and the critics should not be permitted to make “uncontested slam dunks” (Ensign, Jan. 1995, pg. 60) “We refuse to be bound by the interpretations which others place upon our beliefs, or by what they allege must be the practical consequences of our doctrines. Men have no right to impute to us what they think may be the logical deduction from our beliefs, but which we ourselves do not accept. We are to be judged by our own interpretations and by our own actions, not by the logic of others, as to what is, o0r may be, the result of our faith”, in Messages of the First Presidency, Volume IV, compiled by James R. Clark (Bookcraft, SLC 1970): 154, first published Improvement Era 10 (May 1907): 481-495. Elder Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency remarked “It is not often that The Church of Jesus Christ to Latter-day Saints pay attention to misrepresentations, but, when their doctrines are ridiculed, when they are misrepresented, when they are spoken of with contempt, and when these things are published and sent broadcast to the world, by which these things are published and sent to the world, by which men and women follow after the falsehoods which are told, it becomes necessary, sometimes, to correct them, and expose the false basis upon which men reached conclusions in regard to the faith of the Latter-day Saints” (Conf. Rep. Oct. 1910) In the latest issue of the FARMS Review, which is now online, there is a talk given by Elder Samuelson for the 2007 Maxwell Lecture which I highly recommend.Toward the end of the talk he cites an interesting statement from Elder Maxwell that relates generally to scholarship and apologetics. “In a way LDS scholars at BYU and elsewhere are a little bit like the builders of the temple in Nauvoo, who worked with a trowel in one hand and a musket in the other. Today scholars building the temple of learning must also pause on occasion to defend the Kingdom. I personally think [said Elder Maxwell] this is one of the reasons the Lord established and maintains this University. The dual role of builder and defender is unique and ongoing. I am grateful we have scholars today who can handle, as it were, both trowels and muskets.” "And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways." (D&C 6:11) "The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season ... He waketh mine ear to hear as the learned." (2 Nephi 7:4) In the process the honest in heart, those who are truly seeking the truth, "are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it" (D&C 123.12). 1835: Lectures on Faith. The following two paragraphs are taken from the Preface. “There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving anything purporting to be articles of religious faith, since there are so many now extant; but if men believe a system and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it. Viewing this subject to be of importance, the Church, through its servants and delegates, the High Council, appointed your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we add only a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places--its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the Bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments, civil and political.” Signed by Joseph Smith, Jr., Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835. Taken from The Lectures on Faith. In historical perspective, ed. Larry E. Dahl and Charles D. Tate, Jr. (BYU 1990): 29-30. 1838: “Why do the Elders of the Church hold their peace, instead of contradicting the various falsehoods, which are published concerning them and their principles? The answer is, it would require a standing army of writers and printers in constant employ; for no sooner are our enemies detected in one falsehood, than a thousand more are put in circulation by them: and there are many who love a lie so much more than the truth, that we are quite willing they should enjoy their strong delusion." (Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled; Zion's Watchman Unmasked (Joseph W. Harrison, Printer 1838): 1 1839 Joseph Smith: History of the Church, 3. 344-6 Minutes of a General Conference of the Church Held near Quincy, Illinois, May 4th, 5th and 6th, 1839. Minutes of a general conference held by the Church of Latter-day Saints at the Presbyterian camp ground, near Quincy, Adams county, Illinois, on Saturday, the 4th of May, 1839….. Resolved 1st: That Almon W. Babbitt, Erastus Snow and Robert B. Thompson be appointed a traveling committee to gather up and obtain all the libelous reports and publications which have been circulated against our Church, as well as other historical matter connected with said Church, that they possibly can obtain….. Certificate of Appointment. This is to certify that at a general conference held at Quincy, Adams county, Illinois, by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, on Saturday, the 4th day of May, 1839, President Joseph Smith, Jun., presiding, it was resolved: That Almon W. Babbitt, Erastus Snow, and Robert B. Thompson be appointed a traveling committee to gather up and obtain all the libelous reports and publications which have been circulated against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as. well as other historical matter connected with said Church, which they can possibly obtain. JOSEPH SMITH, JUN., President. JAMES MULHOLLAND, Clerk. 1839 Referring to this assignment, Erastus Snow wrote, [On 4 May 1839] I was appointed by the conference one of three committee to collect the libilous publications of all kinds that had been published against the saints and to insert and refute them in a church history which should be compiled by us after the conference. Joseph Smith advised that Erastus Snow and Almon W. Babbitt each travel and preach as their circumstances would permit and "gather in our travels what publications we could and send them to Elder [Robert B.] Thomson who should be writing and compiling the history which should be subject to our inspection." [Erastus Snow Journal] Lyndon W. Cook, The Revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.242 1840 Benjamin Winchester, An Examination of A Lecture Delivered by the Rev. H. Perkins, On the Religious Opinions and Faith of the Latter-day Saints, and Some of His Most Prominent Errors and Misstatements Corrected (N.p.: n.d. [ca. Late May 1840]). “I am determined hereafter, that no man shall get up before a congregation in my presence, and lie so unaccountably about the truth of God; but that he shall hear of it again” (12) [Consequently Winchester began his own periodical] 1841 Benjamin Winchester, Gospel Reflector, in which the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is set forth, and scripture evidence adduced to establish it. A brief treatise Edited by Benjamin Winchester, (Philadelphia. Brown, Bicking & Guilbert, Printers, No. 56 North Third Street, 1841) “As our enemies in this part of the country are engaged in spreading newspapers, pamphlets, and circulars, tracing the doctrine and characters of the above mentioned society, with the intention of stamping them with infamy and disgrace [the paper would] refute the publications that appear against us in the shape of arguments, and thus foil our enemies in their attempts”, [page 1-2, in David Whittaker, “East of Nauvoo: Benjamin Winchester and the Early Mormon Church”, Journal of Mormon History 21.2 (Fall 1995): 30-83, at page 46.] One of my pleasant memories of a visit to President Woodruff’s farm home in Waterloo Ward after I had moved to Idaho, was on an occasion when I took with me a lawyer gentleman from Northern Idaho, who with myself was attending the TransMississippi Congress in Ogden. I told Bro. Woodruff how this man David Franklin Mahana by name had defended the Latter Day Saints in the Idaho Legislature, from verbal assaults made upon them by bitter Anti-Mormons. Bro. Woodruff was sick in bed at the time, but when I made those remarks he rose up in bed and said in a most positive manner: “The Lord will bless any man who will defend the Latter Day Saints against the attacks of their enemies.” I knew the later history of this man David F. Mahana who was indeed blessed as predicted by Brother Woodruff. (Matthias F. Cowley, at University of Chicago, Oct. 4, 1925, CHL MS F 559)

I'll move this discussion to IM. SORRY Sanctitas!

Instead of derailing this thread even more than I already have, how about I start a new thread in the LDS Gospel discussions called Joseph Smiths beliefs on Book of Mormon Geography? We can start there, and then move onto to other major points that are brought up. I Or, you could read a few things on this review: Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography Just let me know

Personally, I don't care where you believe The Book of Mormon to have taken place. I do have issue when people use bad scholarship in an attempt to prove a point (whatever that point may be). I don't think it does anyone any good to believe in false information. If there is good evidence for a certain theory, that is awesome. It will strike great discussion and thought. But, if someone is using information that is wrong, artifacts that are fraudulent, and using science (DNA) that population geneticists say is wrong, what good is that going to do? Personally, I think it will only hurt the field of LDS scholarship.

I would have to disagree. I don't want to offend, but this is one of the worst books on The Book of Mormon. It is not a very accurate book, and there are many other great books that should be read instead. I personally like commentaries. I like Brant Gardners commentary. It is the most exhaustive I've seen, and is full of great insights. I also like Plates of Gold by Matthew Brown, and by the Hand of Mormon by Givens.

Hello Bluejay, I believe that Ugo was making this analogy because in both cases, we don't have the original DNA to work from. Even if we find Israelite DNA in the Americas, we cannot conclude that it is from Lehi or his party because we don't have a sample of their DNA to match it with. Also, not all DNA from your ancestors survive. If someone does not have children, or only has boys, that mtDNA is gone. Even if they do have girls, over time, mtDNA is still lost.

The haplogroup X (specifically X2a) does not mean Lehite DNA. The ones who are spreading that information have no formal training in genetics, while LDS geneticists claim that these claims are not factual. Here is an article turned blog post, that geneticist Ugo Perego helped write: The Book of Mormon and the X haplogroup….again | FAIR Blog and his FAIR conference address on the issue: The Book of Mormon and the Origin of Native Americans from a Maternally Inherited DNA Standpoint DNA will never prove, nor dis-prove, The Book of Mormon With that said, I agree, Maya, that it seems plausible that BOM peoples travelled "northward" to areas, and probably mixed with existing cultures in those areas. I am sure the Hopewell was one of those cultures. This blog post speaks of some of those travels: Another look at Barley in The Book of Mormon | FAIR Blog

FAIR has never made a stance on BOM geography, but most of those involved with FAIR accept a limited geography for The Book of Mormon. I believe the text of The Book of Mormon implies a small area, not one that ranges from Canada to South America. I was merely pointing out that Joseph Smiths statements on BOM geography place it all over the map, and not necessarily in *only* one of the more popular theories that are currently being advertised. Anyone who claims that Joseph Smith *only* supports their position is either not being honest, or very ignorant of JS beliefs.

This was one of my favorite talks at the FAIR conference. It goes to show that Joseph Smith believed in a Mesoamerican model for the Book of Mormon. But that does not mean that he *only* believed in a Mesoamerican model. He made statements which placed the BOM over all of North and South America, something that really doesn't fit with the internal geography of the BOM. Personally, I think he was just making his best guess at where it happened, and it makes sense that the Nephites lived in North America, narrow neck of land was in Central America, and the Lamanites lived in South America.

FAIR has done a video on that very subject:

No offense taken, and thank you for caring enough to be cautious. I spoke with him 2 weeks ago, and last week he was sick and will be out of town for the next 3 weeks. But, you are right. I should pry a little more to find out a little more about this letter. I agree with you, and believed it was a letter that would be read over the pulpit, but have not heard it yet. I'll find out where exactly he read this letter and let you know.