fatima
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Posts posted by fatima
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On 4/14/2020 at 10:57 AM, Traveler said:
I traveled a great deal in my work - often to foreign countries. I enjoy attending my Church meetings. There is a culture that underpins the members of our church - in part because we do not have a clergy class so the Sabbath sermons are given my members - often by someone with less than a year of membership and this includes youth often as young as 12 years old. Except for the language there are little and few differences from my home ward in Salt Lake City Utah.
I seldom attend a Catholic service but from my studies of history this kind of cross culture and language culture is rare. There is a county in Maryland (Saint Mary) USA in the early 1600's that was settled by English speaking Catholics because there was no where in Europe that would allow them to live in peace. Mostly because of the English separation from the Catholics that created the Church of England.
The Traveler
If I understand you correctly, that sameness throughout the wards is part of the steadiness and consistency that you like? I would say that is true of the Catholic Church as well. The liturgy will be the same, if the language is not, throughout the world. And before Vatican II, the language was the same (Latin) worldwide. Even if one didn't speak/understand Latin in day to day life, the translations were available and everyone knew what they were saying.
I lived in St. Mary's County, MD for years and the Catholic culture is still strong there.
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25 minutes ago, Traveler said:
Something left out in most post of this thread is the in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - a fast is not just going with out food for a number of meals. A critical element of a fast is the act of prayer associated directly to the fast. Members are encouraged to begin and end their fast with sincere prayer. Generally, my wife and I pray together to begin and end our fast. In our prayers we partition our Father in Heaven directly concerning why we are fasting. We believe that through fasting and prayer - we are able to (1) coordinate our will to G-d's and (2) enable blessings that are reserved until fasting and prayer brings about their release.
The Traveler
Amen!
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31 minutes ago, Traveler said:
I felt it necessary respond directly to this post. During my lifetime the Church has become less of a Utah entity and more of a global entity. Because the Church intends to be a legal organization in every country in which it resides or has citizen members - that Church must conform and be subject to many different laws and governments. And yet, the Church is one Church under Christ. What is stated above is in essence necessary for this one Church of Christ to operate legally throughout the world. Some countries require that all funds collected by the church within that country's borders never are to be transferred to another country without written permission from an official within that country thus to meet all the needs of that particular country all donations are general donations to the overall mission of the Church. But be assured that the Church goes through great length to use the funds as donated.
The Traveler
I appreciate this, and recognize that the LDS Church, like the Catholic Church is subject to laws. Throughout its 2000 year history, I wonder if some events involving the CC that we see through 21st century eyes were really a result of the time and place of said event.
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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:
Our general practice is to fast for two meals on the first Sunday of each month and to give as a fast offering to the church, at least the money we would have spent on those two meals. Some people will fast for a full 24 hours, but I think that two meals is the norm. Most of the time people will fast for their own personal purposes, between themselves and God, but on rare occasions, the church will call for a wider fast in response to a specific issue. The purpose of fasting is to draw nearer to God and to demonstrate to Him that we are willing to forgo the appetites of the flesh for spiritual purposes.
Wow! Hmmm....follow on question...your church does seem to ask a lot of members in terms of financial sacrifice...and I don't necessarily disagree because I think we (Catholics) are stingy with our church. But is this monetary donation from this fast in addition to the tithing already required to receive a temple recommend? Or is it included in that reconciling?
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It is good to see that our LDS brothers and sisters offered up fasting on Good Friday for the world. My question is...what happens now? Does the LDS church recommend fasting on a regular basis, and theologically, what is the purpose?
As a practicing Catholic, and I try to make sacrifices a regular part of life in order to detach from this world and more fully attach myself to God. Will the LDS continue with this encouragement, do you think?
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On 9/19/2018 at 7:12 PM, MormonGator said:
What's it like being an open LDS in a Catholic forum? Not an insult, genuinely curious.
The LDS people at Mormon hub are much more respectful to other faiths than the CAF people are to LDS posters. However, I think that the admins are less tolerant here of Catholics explaining and teaching about their faith than the admins are at CAF. Just my opinion.
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I am only on page three of this thread, but I have to take a moment to say "Thank You" to @anatess2 for her answers on this thread. As a die-hard Catholic, even I have had trouble understanding what has gone on/is going on, and she has helped me to see that it not (necessarily) all a cover up. It would be great if it was common knowledge within our communities what a "life of prayer and penance" actually is; it is not a cushy retirement. I"m on my way out the door, but I look forward to reading more.
- JohnsonJones and anatess2
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On 6/2/2018 at 8:44 AM, Sunday21 said:
Do any of you suffer from false promptings? I have had many. My mother is now living in a senior’s residence. She had a fall and I raced hours on the highway to get to her. During the drive, I received several ‘promptings’ that she was dead. Previously I had received several promptings that she would be dead by various dates. All false.
i also received several promptings that I should not bother to find a senior residence for her because she would die before entering the residence. Well my mother is now happily tucked up in a senior’s residence.
I am now thinking about all the other supposed promptings that I received: times when I have put my heath at risk or made decisions that hurt me professionally and personally. I am not sure that I will ever trust a ‘prompting’ again.
I am not LDS, and I really don't understand what a "prompting" is, but I am guessing by this thread that it is the idea that God is somehow speaking directly to you about something. Once again, not knowing LDS doctrine, I would say this: if a prompting is in some way out-of-line with some other element of faith, it probably isn't from God. Example: (remember that I am Catholic) if I thought I had a 'prompting' to have an abortion, that would clearly violate known doctrine, so it wouldn't be a prompting from God.
In the situation with your mother, the prompting sounds like some manner of seeing into the future ( I suspect all Christianity frowns upon it, as the future is only God's to know). Maybe a more obvious example would be if LDS had a prompting to share details of the Temple with a non-LDS, that would clearly violate LDS doctrine, so it cannot be from God.
It's hard, hard, hard to deal with aging parents. My prayers are with you.
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10 hours ago, estradling75 said:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
Joseph Smith History 1: 19
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
What he called and abomination and why is right there
I know this part, thank you; I have read this before. What I'm looking for is if, following this (or any other) vision, that Smith outlines specifics that were detailed to him. Not to say that God should have/would have, because even in the Catholic Church, there were things that, while true, were not formally pronounced and defined until later years.
A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?
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5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
Joseph Smith History 1: 19
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
What he called and abomination and why is right there
Yes, I've read that much. I'm wondering if there are specifics written anywhere. But, thank you anyway.
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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:
Hi @fatima, long time no see! Welcome back!
The specific quote is:
" I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng (emphasis mine)
Ir is not the churches that were abominations, nor the people therein, but specifically the creeds. For LDS, we're really big on the fact that Truth comes from God, via revelation. For the whole church/world, that's revelation received through His prophets and priesthood, and can be scripture itself. Ultimate Truth doesn't come any other way. Speaking from the LDS perspective, the creeds were documents written by men, not received by prophetic revelation*. So that's a very offensive problem from the get go-- it's men putting themselves in the driver seat where only God should be.
The problem when men put themselves in the driver's seat, is that they get things wrong. Not intentionally, but we don't have God's infinite knowledge. It starts gradual, and then gets more pronounced. One way they went astray is by declaring the Father, Son, and Spirit to be one via a shared substance. That italicized part is not in the Bible, but a result of men's thoughts. Well meaning men, but still men. That one idea alone stems many false ideas about who God is, and who we are.
Other big points are hit pretty well in the article @Sunday21 linked. I'll elaborate more in my next post.
*I do acknowledge the Catholic belief that these men were inspired, albeit not with public revelation. I find that to be a much more respectable approach than the sola scriptura beliefs.
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious, for instance, if God through Smith said that veneration of Mary and the Saints is a false doctrine. And the reason I ask is because it seems LDS share something similar with Catholics with respect to our ancestors in the faith (so to speak). I've been at a Mormon ward and there are images of the prophets, relief society women (I'm guessing the foundress of RS?) I read in another post that a Temple has murals of Adam and Eve.
So, while I realize you do not pray to them or ask for their intercession with God as we do, you still look to them as examples of a faithful life, right?
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It is my understanding that when Joseph Smith spoke to God, God told him that all the churches were an abomination (or something like that) Is there anything in Smith's writing that outlines what the offensive doctrines or practices were? As a Catholic, I am more interested in what specific Catholic practices were condemned.
Or, perhaps God didn't go over specifics of any denomination, but rather just told Smith was to do from that point forward?
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41 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:
@fatima, LDS regard all ordinance as being sacred. We don't view one as being "more sacred" as the other simply because it comes later in a person's walk with Christ. For example, confirmation is not "more sacred" because than baptism because confirmation comes after baptism. We've been trying to stress that in this conversation, and I apologize if it didn't come through the clearest.
I don't think any one here is trying to attack the Catholic faith (and if they are, that's wrong). We're just trying to explain that comparing the "sacredness"/requirements of the Lord's Supper in the Catholic Church, versus the "sacredness"/requirements of becoming an LDS priest doesn't make a lot of sense (or any other combination of rites/churches you'd like).
Once again, I am not comparing the Lord's Supper in the Catholic Church to the requirements of becoming an LDS priest, or the LDS Lord's Supper. I am comparing what Catholics view as most sacred (Eucharist) to what LDS view as most sacred (visiting/participating in the Temple). Just as LDS are supposed to be 'worthy' to enter the Temple, a Catholic is supposed to be 'worthy' to receive the Eucharist. In Catholic language we might say 'worthy', or we might say that one must be 'in a state of grace'.
My additional observation was that for LDS, the bishop determines if a person is worthy of the Temple by means of an interview. Catholics have no such interview process, and they do not present anything like a 'recommend' in order to receive the Eucharist. It was not a criticism as @anatess suggested. In fact, I can't say I would mind if Catholics were turned away from the Eucharist more often (disclaimer: it does happen that a priest can sometimes withhold the Eucharist, but I won't get into that here)
I can't say that I understand the word 'ordinance' properly with respect to the LDS faith. Are the things in the Temple 'ordinances', or sealings, or something else? I always thought the only LDS ordinance was the Lord's Supper in the wards. I thought the Temple was for sealings and endowments.
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23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
No. That wasn't fatima's point. Fatima criticized our LDS bishops for denying members entrance to the temple when Catholic priests do not deny Catholics the Eucharist. It is not about the sanctity of the ordinance, it is the REQUIREMENTS to qualify for the ordinance that she is criticizing.
I did not criticize, I observed.
This IS an LDS beliefs board, so I don't expect LDS posters to agree with Catholic teaching on points x, y and z. However, that inter-faith respect we all claim to want has to have a place on an LDS board and a Catholic board.
I have absolutely no dispute with the LDS requirements for entering the Temple. While I disagree with LDS theology, I love and respect any individual who seeks the Will of God and does His Will as they honestly believe it to be.
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On 11/29/2017 at 8:46 PM, Jane_Doe said:
Comparing the Lord's Supper to the Lord's Supper is logical. Apples to apples. 1 to 1.
Simple as that. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to you, I cannot break it down any simpler.
I didn't compare Lord's Supper to Lord's Supper. I compared the greatest gift/experience in the Catholic faith to the greatest gift/experience in the LDS faith, the Temple.
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On 11/28/2017 at 7:00 PM, Jane_Doe said:
You're mixing up apples and oranges here.
Catholics do not require an interview before partaking of the Lord's Supper. Likewise, LDS do not require an interview before partaking of the Lord's Supper. (That's apples and apples).
Catholics do require an interview before participating in latter priesthood rites (becoming a priest, getting married, etc). Likewise LDS do require an interview before participating in latter priesthood rites (becoming a priest, getting married, etc). (That's oranges and oranges).
Does that make sense @fatima?
The comparison I was trying to make was participation in the most sacred experience in each of our respective faiths: the Eucharist and the Temple. Whether one of us calls it a sacrament or an ordinance was not my point. Catholic should be examining themselves before presenting themselves to receive Jesus in the Eucharist, LDS (from what I understand) cannot go into the Temple under certain circumstances. I am not comparing Catholic Communion to LDS Communion.
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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:
From where I'm sitting, I'm more inclined to say you misunderstood Catholic teaching.
Not likely.
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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:
The Catholic priest does not forgive sins. Christ does. The priest saying "your sins are forgiven" is not independent of Christ's forgiveness. The priest is simply carrying out the will of the Lord as he discerns it. Exact same as an LDS Bishop. The penitent does not find comfort in the Priest/Bishop's forgiveness. He finds comfort in Christ's forgiveness.
Where Catholics misunderstand the LDS is in the FOCUS of where the forgiveness comes from. The LDS completely focuses on Christ being the source of all forgiveness whereas the Catholics are more tolerant of saying "the priest forgave my sins" when in fact, Christ did.
LDS do not present a recommend to partake of the Sacrament either.
LDS present need a recommend for the temple. I'm sure you knew what I meant. Earlier in the thread LDS were firm in the distinction between the role of the Catholic priest and the role of an LDS bishop.
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a person should go to the bishop and confess the sin, as part of the repentance process. The bishop is not a "person in Christ" as Catholic believe (pardon me, I know I'm totally forgetting the actual proper phrasing here) and cannot forgive sins as Christ would. Rather, the bishop is to counsel the person, and guides them through seeking repentance with Christ.
Man cannot forgive sins because man is not God, and only God can forgive sins. God did not -- indeed, in my opinion, God cannot -- authorize men to forgive sins. By the very nature of our mortal being and sinful state, such a thing is utterly beyond us.
@Anatess-if I have misunderstood LDS teaching, I expect you'll forgive me as I am getting mixed messages from LDS posters on this board.
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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:
The relationship between Parishes and Parishioners.
In the Catholic Church in my area (USA), the Parish is so large that it is impossible for the Priest to have a personal relationship with everyone. On high mass (yes, we choir people still call it high mass and low mass), they have shuttles that drive parishioners from the parking lot to the Church. That's how big that parish is. I was one of the cantors so you would think I would have a personal relationship with the priest. But no. No such luck. He can't remember my name. Which I wouldn't expect him to do as I don't even know the names of at least 3/4 of the people who attend high mass. A lot of the faces are not familiar even.
It's just as large in the Philippines. That's why my dad petitioned the parish for a chapel inside our subdivision. We have one priest from the diocese that is assigned to hold one mass at our chapel and we have a deacon from the seminary. Our subdivision was about 50 households and our priest goes there to play tennis or go to parties or just hang out. Everybody has a personal relationship with our Priest. We've had several over the decades as they get moved to different diocese. But each one of them knows the going-ons in the subdivision.
This is one of the things that the LDS ward does well. The organization of the ward - although the same as the parish where there is a geographic boundary - is such that the bishop tends to get to know everyone because everybody has a sense of belonging to that ward in the same manner that we had a sense of belonging to our chapel. Growing up, we attended mass at the chapel. We don't go around picking and choosing which mass is more convenient. Also, the LDS ward is organized such that we serve in the ward so we tend to get to know the people in the ward ourselves. Growing up, we also served at the chapel. The young boys in the subdivision take turns being acolytes, we have a choir, we rotate reading assignments to all the families, we have cleaning assignments, decorating assignments, we have ministries, we have devotionals on certain days, etc. etc., with all the families organized into service. But what I grew up with is not a common thing in the Catholic Church. There's just not that many priests to go around. Especially in the USA. There's not much that encourages that kind of fellowship and service within a gigantic parish. The LDS ward gets broken up into smaller wards with its own bishop if it gets too big.
These are all false statements.
Just to pick on a few: The LDS bishop does have the authority to offer assurance of forgiveness of sins. Just like in the Catholic faith, the bishop does not forgive the sins, Jesus Christ does through the bishop.
The Catholic priest DO judge that an individual cannot receive the Eucharist. It's part of his job as a priest in the same manner that it is part of the job of an LDS bishop.
Catholic priests and LDS bishops alike assure us of God's mercy although you don't need the priesthood to do that in both religions.
All the rest are just as false. I suggest you learn more about the LDS bishop before you make such silly statements.
LDS in this thread have said that the LDS bishop does not forgive sins, so my statement is based on that. Catholics do not present a 'recommend' when they approach the Eucharist, so that is what I mean when I say that the priest doesn't withhold the most precious and sacred thing in the Catholic faith. In the Catholic Church, the individual is supposed to examine themselves before receiving the Sacrament.
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23 hours ago, anatess2 said:
There is no difference between LDS and Catholic on the interpretation of John 20:21-23. In both faiths, Priesthood Authority comes with the power of discernment of the presence of sin and the forgiveness thereof.
In the LDS faith, the keys of discernment are only given to Bishops. In the Catholic faith, all priests have these keys.
There is also not much difference in the process of repentance/confession between LDS and Catholic except for the ceremonial rites.
A Catholic priest, just like a Bishop, is tasked with helping the flock through the process of repentance. The confessional, though, is set so that the actual rite of confession is anonymous. Depending on the sin confessed in the rite, the Priest gives the confessor guidance on how to overcome the sin (which may involve not partaking of the Eucharist and the like) without needing to know who confessed the sin.
In the LDS faith, these rites do not exist - rather, the confession is made directly to God and the Holy Spirit provides comfort and guidance. Each LDS member is taught correct principles and they are to govern themselves including seeking restitution for their sins (this has nothing to do with the Bishop having a full time job). A confession to the Bishop is made if the confessor needs the Bishop to guide him through the process of repentance. The confession to the Bishop is not anonymous although it is kept confidential. The confessor talks with the Bishop and the Bishop, through his power of discernment, determines how to bring the confessor back into alignment with God. A lot of times, the temple recommend interview brings to light these sins as the Bishop discerns its presence even as the LDS member did not.
This also happens in the Catholic faith where the confessor seeks help with repentance beyond the rite of confession. In these cases, the confession is not anonymous anymore and the Priest personally guides the confessor through the process of repentance. It is very beneficial to have a personal relationship with your parish priest so these things become a source of comfort instead of extreme anxiety. This is one of the areas in Catholicism that could use a whole lot of improvement.
So, to summarize. Unlike the Catholic Church, the rite of confession does not exist in the LDS Church. Confessors confess directly to God (instead of going through the confession rite at the confessional) unless he needs assistance with the repentance process in which he needs to seek guidance from his bishop.
I don't think I'm reading your post correctly. What part of the Catholic Confession do you think needs a whole lot of improvement? Personal relationships with the priests for better guidance? If so, I just want to say that priests are very willing to offer spiritual direction on a regular basis, and I have had monthly SD for years and years. He knows my strengths and weaknesses and helps me to constantly grow closer to God. If Catholic individuals do not take advantage of the priests' help, ...well, that's another kettle of fish.
I do find it interesting that LDS bishops have no authority to offer assurance of forgiveness for sins, but can still judge a person to be 'not worthy' of the temple. By contrast, a priest can offer assurance of forgiveness, but they do not (as a rule, and only under extreme situations) judge that an individual cannot receive the Eucharist. Catholic priests can assure us of God's Mercy, but LDS bishops cannot. Catholic priest withhold judgement in participation in the sum and summit of the Catholic faith (the Eucharist) while the LDS bishop does (necessarily) pass judgement in withholding an individual from participation in the sum and summit of the LDS faith.
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On 11/24/2017 at 5:53 PM, Jane_Doe said:
From my limited understanding of Catholicism, they appear to have a subtly but very important difference in how the priesthood is viewed. From my understanding of Catholicism, a priest is a "in persona Christi", in that he is viewed as acting as Christ Himself. LDS don't have that concept. In LDS view, Christ is Christ and we are we. A priest is a servant of Christ, and the priesthood is the authority to act in His name, as He commands, but not to be Him Himself. There are still miracles worked and lives changed, but it's stressed that it's all through Christ's power.
Focusing specifically on confession now: both faiths believe Christ is the one who forgives sins. Catholics believe a priest can forgive sins because he is Christ (in a sense, through in persona Christi). LDS view Christ as being the one doing the forgiving directly (like everything else) and the priest being the servant by guiding a person through the process.
I think, and I could be wrong on this point, but I think that a Catholic priest is only in persona Christi at the Consecration of the Eucharist and in the Confessional. He is not in persona Christi at all times.
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On 11/24/2017 at 11:20 AM, Blueskye2 said:
For a Catholic, Jesus is our great High Priest. A Catholic priest acts in the person of Christ. It is Christ who forgives us of our sins, not the priest. John 20:19-23.
I've always felt that the priest standing in for Christ and offering those beautiful words of absolution are meant as an assurance to me, the penitent.
It is Jesus Himself that says, "I absolve you from your sin", through the priest. It is for our benefit, our peace of mind that Our Lord offers us the gift of the Sacrament of Confession.
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On 10/2/2017 at 11:58 AM, Blueskye2 said:
Hello Fatima. Eve is depicted in a mural in our church, as part of a group of OT Saints, so you’re answer got me to searching for the answer. Tradition has them in Heaven. Their memorial is celebrated on December 24th (optional). Also, the Harrowing of Hell has, in Tradition, that Adam and Eve were among those who were released. CCC 635: “Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, [Christ] has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve.”
That is definitely news to me. I have heard speculation that they might be in Purgatory until the end of time, but no definitive statements at all.
Moroni
in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
Posted
I read that Moroni was a man, a prophet (?) and son of another prophet, Mormon. What I read said that when Moroni died he became the angel whom Joseph Smith saw.
It is my understanding that upon death a man becomes an exalted man, like Heavenly Father (or that he continues to work towards that exaltation). Do LDS consider angel different beings than men? How/why did Moroni become a different being all-together?