Heh just 2 more and you have a regulation 40,000 table... which would be awesome.
...or Age of Sigmar... which would make me throw up a little in my mouth.
@mirkwood I'm really diggin' that tile. So is it your plan to build a few of these and just arrange them on the table at gametime, or just use it by itself?
Heh - I remember your story about the cold burrito. I once got a speeding ticket from a cop in the pouring rain, and remember thinking what it would be like if he had to do like accident cleanup or something and had to stand out there for hours. And if you spend a few hours learning about what cops do, you learn it's waaaay too much paperwork, and if they do it wrong it means someone walks.
Sort of my main point (which was probably lost), was that soldiers' jobs are very different from cops. And if you think clothing and equipment makes the difference, you're thinking silly things and need to stop it.
MormonGator > LadyGator > LordGator > LordVador > Darth Vador > Darth Vader
Free association, dude, with some rhyming...
Anyway, she said it, not me. I'll pass your "drop Gator from Lord" request back to the compound.
Interesting timing on all of this: Today in Houston Texas. Suspect firing on citizens with an AR15. First cop car that arrives gets 20 bullets fired into it. Miraculously the cop is either lightly wounded or not at all. SWAT arrives in their mean and menacing camo uniforms with their mean and menacing military style body armor and they act like soldiers, find the shooter and kill him. Theres news clips out there and they have armored cars and camo uniforms too. Looking pretty bad. I bet the public really cant get over the fact some cops wearing camo and military style hardware saved their butts.
So how is that a bad thing??? because the cops were not wearing shirt and tie and getting shot up like everyone else? If it makes you feel any better, one of the cops was wearing a military style vest with an armor plate in it and he was shot in the plate- likely saved his life.
This is exactly why the cops have some military style equip----because it works!
And some more:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj0mM6QsILNAhVB_GMKHVRSCekQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fksn.com%2F2016%2F01%2F22%2Fflorida-police-officer-wounded-in-ambush-shooting%2F&psig=AFQjCNHnEER4DjwI901XtpClkzSeZhpdIA&ust=1464717522841424
Well these dont exactly illustrate penetration thru metal, but they do illustrate the need for armor. Of course, there are a certain number of police officer murders we (American Public) are ok with so long as no one is offended by some armor or a couple of guns that look full auto. I guess the challenge is finding out exactly how many police officer's deaths we are content to have until we stop worrying about what kind of weapons or armor they have available.
On this note, the same applies to our military and their dead who we honor today. Fortunately we are not so picky about what they look like or the equip they use because we always want them to win.
JFYI- The following soliloquy is based on my experience, not some newspaper article or something my 70 year old uncle who was a cop told me.
Background: 24 years combined service in Military and LEO. Served on active duty in the Infantry and as a cop. Nearly 100% of police career was on the street at night on a large agency. Large being a matter of perspective, but it is a serious well-known agency. I was a Tactical officer (SWAT, SAU etc whatever you want to call it) and have been on hundreds of tactical incidents to include at least 100 high-risk warrants). Military-wise two deployments in combat and not behind a typewriter…behind a gun. Retired now thankfully.
Here goes- it is long but it may prove to be informative.
As long as policing has been around, there have been critics of it from within and without the police community. Generally speaking over the years while I was a cop, our biggest enemy was our own administration. Typically police admins are made up of ladder climbers who did about three years of patrol and a couple other misc assignments and then somehow made it to top tier positions within the dept, but they ultimately know nothing about how to be a cop.
The public was often a bigger supporter of police than the admin was until probably the past ten years or so. Recent publicity surrounding officer involved shootings, militarization etc have led to much more criticism of the police (some deserved, some not) and hence the discussions. Part of the problem with this is that typically the opinion of the police in these matters is often disregarded. TYhe admins become our spokesmen but they are really just politicians and solidify their careers through administrative executions of street cops. The critics in the public are largely so ill informed in these matters it renders their opinions pretty much baseless. Reason being is A- they have no skin in the game other than taxes and B- they have no idea what is going on around them in their communities. Their only experience with the police is getting a ticket and what they see on the news.
Anyway- I’m going to address some things here about the police to help educate. I'm not here to spar, fight or pontificate on all the what-ifs. Just here to give perspective. Several topics are going to be elaborated on so get ready for a long post:
Selection of police officers: All agencies and states have different standards, but they are all similar in the basics. Background, physical/medical/mental. Fact is majority of US citizens including those you sit in church with (LDS too) cannot pass the background check in regards to morals and criminal behavior. A friend of mine who is LDS worked hiring for four years and he told me the backgrounds of the LDS applicants were every bit as screwed up as everyone else. The only reason he could tell some of them were LDS is because of their last name or the fact they spoke fluent Spanish and lived abroad for two year (mission). The general population of the US is ok with a certain level of crime (theft, fraud, drugs, sex offenses) so long as they were the ones doing it. As for all the other issues people vary in intelligence, physical agility and mental health. People often wonder why there are fat cops…well our administrations wont let us work out on duty like the Fire Depts do so legally they cannot enforce physical standards as a standard of continued employment. This being the case, the dept cant fire you for being fat. It is a personal thing if you want to be fit. I worked the street for nearly my entire career and have been involved in wayyy over a couple hundred forceful arrest and violent situations. I felt it was in my best interest to be as fit as possible so if anyone kills me with fists or a choke, they at least get a trip to the hospital to get bullet holes patched, bones set and eyeballs put back in their sockets
Mental health: Police applicants who make it that far in the hiring process undergo a psychological evaluation and yes some wingnuts make it through. Problem here is we are evaluating people for their potential to be mentally resilient to the mental rigors of the job, yet remain calm and collected enough to be able to reason through a situation without flipping out or making a horrible decision. We must remember that outside of someone applying from another agency, these applicants have never done this stuff nor ever been exposed to it. In fact, many nowadays have never been involved in a fist fight at school so we don’t know if they will even engage when called upon to do so.
Our field training programs are generally about 16-20 weeks long depending upon the agency. This is the time where we get to look at a recruit, mentor them and hopefully see them get involved in a violent mess so we can assess their ability to deal with it according to their training. One group we got out of the academy had a new recruit get shot in an ambush on his first night on duty. He still works there.
Bottom line for hiring: Historically we only find 2/100 applicants suitable for hire. Most Americans cannot make the hiring process for a variety of reasons . This includes most of you reading this. That is for even the agencies with the lamest of hiring standards. That isn’t meant to be a slam, it is reality.
As the US has hundreds of agencies nationwide, the standard for hiring and training varies and is often geared towards LOCAL norms and community expectations. The larger agencies (500+ Officers) usually are on a similar sheet of music when it comes to standards, training and tactics. Many are members of CALEA.
Body Armor: When these discussions of militarization come up oftentimes the exterior “military style” vests are a topic of discussion. Most of what you see on the street is a street cop is wearing it is what is called an “outer vest.” This is usually just a regular patrol vest in a different form. With all the equipment cops have to carry now, it is much easier to carry that stuff on an outer vest and leave the pistol, ammo and cuffs on a belt. Most agencies require a patrol officer to carry on their person a pistol, three magazines of ammo, pepper spray, two handcuffs, expandable baton, taser w/extra cartridge, pens, notebook/cards, radio, vest etc… My old agency you could be disciplined if caught not carrying that stuff. The outer vest makes that easier and also it has been found to reduce the number of lower back issues. Back issues sideline many cops during the last 5 yrs of their career and you as a taxpayer get to pay for their medical and tax free retirement….so we are just saving you money.
Back to the vest: A patrol vest typically is a level 2 or 3 which essentially stops nearly all pistol rounds known to exist except some 22 mag and 5.7 FN cartridges. Also this will stop some very low velocity rifle and most shotgun projectiles. Keep in mind, this only works where the body is protected. Every officer I know of who has been shot whether they be dead or alive was hit in places other than the vest. These vests do not stop 99% of rifle rounds. A bullet fired from a 30.06 or a .223 will go through them like a hot knife through butter. Now there are some tactical vests that are level 3s which also have a ballistic plate in front and or the rear. These don’t offer much coverage but better than nothing. These plates will stop several impacts from an AK47, Ar-15 or a 450 marlin. Given that suspects and many cops are not the most stellar marksman while they are being shot at, even officers wearing these vests often get hit everywhere else except the plate. Enough said there.
Camo Uniforms: Actually this is rare. My former agency doesn’t have any I have ever seen, but they do wear Olive Drab on the Tactical Team (SWAT, Special Assignments etc..) The vast majority of the other equipment they wear is also green or the same as the military uses. These officers are not running around on patrol wearing this stuff. They are exclusively used for high-risk situations so you will never see them. I live in the same city I worked and to this day I have never seen any patrol cops dressed in camo or anything other than the LAPD blue patrol uniform. I'm sure it happens here or there but as a matter of regular duty uniform I highly doubt it.
Some may say, well why do they need a military uniform??? Well these uniforms need to be functional for what they are doing, be durable and also flame retardant (nomex). The LAPD blue polyester uniform is not a good SWAT uniform. I wore mine a couple times on emergency callouts that lasted nearly a day and they were trashed when I was done.
Ultimately what does it matter? Once a situation has deteriorated to the point that someone is spraying bullets, has hostages or is trying to escape into the community to either get away or continue to do harm; who cares about their sensibilities when it comes to the cop’s current fashion statement?
Armored Vehicles: I love this part. First of all, the conversation here makes it sound like the cops are out patrolling the city in these things. Like the military vests and camo uniforms discussed above, I have never seen this happen where I live or in the surrounding area. I have seen these vehicles, but they were obviously going to an incident, training or maintenance.
There are many types. As for the MRAPs, there are a lot out there, but most are sidelined because no one knows how to maintain them and most of the agencies who got them can’t afford the parts. So they are being stored for the most part. In my local area (6 million people) I don’t know of any agency that has one. Almost all use the bearcat because it was designed to deploy and protect cops and it does that very well. I won’t say how many my agency has, but it is more than 1. I only wish we had them when I was a tactical officer. In the past, most agencies used decommissioned armored cars.
What is an armored vehicle used for? Well it is used to deliver officers right into a hot scene while being protected or as a means of extracting people from gun battles with some armor to protect them. We have done this with civilians and cops. They are used to breach fortified homes while under fire…yes this happens and we have done it several times. In the Ferguson riot situation is was a platform higher than the crown where the observers (snipers) can watch the crowd from a vantage point and warn the front line about people approaching with bricks, weapons etc. If someone starts shooting, they have a hard time hiding from the guy on top of the armored car. The car also offers cover from bricks. Riot shields do not offer much protection from bricks.
Patrol cars with armor: Most new patrol cars these days come with an option to have ballistic panels inserted in the doors. The windows are still made of glass and the body of the car is still made of steel which handgun and rifle rounds will penetrate to varying degrees. Most agencies do not have these ballistic panels in their vehicles.
K-9 Use: Oftentimes the public will ask why a K9 wasn’t used instead of some other form of force. Well simple reason: 99% of cops don’t have a dog in their car and many agencies don’t have one at all. The majority of incidents happen within a minute or two of contact and is over with at this point. Go research how much a dog, the training and the handler cost and get back with me if you still think you as a taxpayer can afford it. Oh, and when we do use a dog it is almost always labeled as excessive or racist anyway. They are a great tool though and they are used as often as necessary and when they are available. My agency always had 2-3 available each night, but they rarely could get to an incident before it was over. While a tactical officer we used the k9 all the time with great results.
TASER: This is one of the best tools ever and it saves lives every day. Some people who would have otherwise been shot have lived productive lives and continued to commit even more crime. Perhgaps in some cases the bullet would have been a better option, but I digress. I easily would have at least 4 more shootings to my credit if it were not for the TASER. I’ll leave it at that.
Officers with mental health training: Many police shootings involve a mentally ill person. I was involved in a suicide by cop. Wasn’t much time to get out a couch and talk things over with him as he opened up on us with a handgun as soon as we got to the house. That is how most of them go because they want us to kill them. Many police agencies get officers trained in how to deal with mentally ill people, but given the time necessary, the expense and the logistics of all of it; it is not feasible to train everyone. Cops get pretty good at it though due to experience. Looking back I probably dealt with a mentally ill person every single shift if I was to average out the encounters. I only got in a shooting with one so I feel pretty good about the results.
Officer Involved Shootings: I Love this topic because it is so misrepresented and misunderstood.
The best line ever is, “I don’t know why you guys shoot so many people, my uncle was a cop and he never even took his gun out of the holster cept to go poop.?” My response is well that was 30 years ago and it wasn’t socially acceptable to shoot cops like it is now.
Anyway, this all depends on where you work. I spent the first 8 yrs working swings and graves in the nicest part of town and frankly I don’t know if I had a shift where we were not taking people off at gunpoint. Im sure there were some, but just to make up for it some shifts I did it three or four times. We had tons of gang activity and white trash meth heads in my precinct so gunplay isn’t too unusual. I recall one shift, my buddy and I were on a call and he ended up killing a suspect who attacked him with a knife. Before the end of shift, another officer just a mile south of us ended up in a shooting with another guy attacking people with a knife. Our area had shots fired calls every single shift, every single hour of the night and many times we got there and there were people on scene with holes in them. Some were dead and some alive. Sounds pretty bad, but is doesn’t even hold a candle to LA.
Most officer involved shootings happen within seconds of making contact with the suspect. Sometimes you don’t even get to get out of your car. One buddy of mine got shot several times as soon as he knocked on a door and another one took a couple rounds as soon as he drove up on the call. The other responding officers killed both suspects who did those shootings.
I have personally been in two shootings and on-scene for between 15 and 20 others. A couple were while I was a Tactical Officer (SWAT) and the rest while in patrol. I have been shot at quite a bit mostly by pistols, but for sure one AK47, couple AR15s and a shotgun. I was on scene for a shooting with a suicide by cop guy who in my opinion didn’t need to get shot (yet), but was by someone who was more scared for their life than I was at the time so I guess its all good. We paid out on a lawsuit on that one. Small payout, but we lost the claim nonetheless.
Body cams will bring more of this to real life in the future, but for now you will have to just believe we don’t want to get into these shootings. I and we will pull the trigger if it comes do a decision between which of us gets to die though. I will say that much.
As for the “high frequency” of these shootings, there are less now than there have been in a long time. They just get more publicity now. While I worked patrol, only about half the shootings our dept got involved with ever made the paper or the TV.
“Just shoot them in the arm or leg or use Judo…” You do it idiot if you are that good.
Here is the deal; that is often said about dealing with knife wielding suspects. As many stabbings and shootings I have seen I can comfortable say I would rather get shot than stabbed. My job description doesn’t say I need to take a slashing knife attack just so I can nicely get a suspect into cuffs. People who want us to do that have never seen knife wounds. If you want to see some Google is your friend. As for me: pull a knife on me and I will shoot you. I may even give you some verbals to drop the knife if you give me a chance.
Cops are never held accountable or arrested for crimes: False- I personally have arrested two cops. My agency has arrested several of our officers over the years for a variety of stuff. The administration at nearly every agency I have associated with is regarded as mush more perilous to an officer’s career than the public can be. In Arizona we have an organization which oversees and review terminations (AZPOST). Go to their website and read about the various things cops get terminated for here.
In the personal lives of cops, per-capita we are much less likely to break any law (except for traffic laws) than their own neighbors. Just in my own neighborhood I know of several people who are regular law-breakers and many of them are in my ward. Stealing, fraud, drugs and other violations. The other ones I don’t know about because the ward gossip mill doesn’t know about it.
ON EDIT...I forgot Guns: We carry Glocks primarily. Flashlights can be mounted to these pistols to aid in building searches and free up an officer's support hand to do other things like...suppor the pistol to increase the quality of marksmanship.
Ar-15s. Yep lots out there. In my region we went to these about 15 yrs ago after there were several gunbattles with suspects who wewre armed with AR15s or AK47s and wearing body armor. Traditionally at that time SWAT teams were armed with MP5 submachine guns (terrific CQB weapon for its time btw) which are 9mm. These bullets dont go through body armor so we got AR15s instead. Also the patrol shotgun went largely by the wayside becuase an officer could more effectively handle an AR15 as opposed to a shotgun shooting slug or 00Buck. The ar15 ammo we use is tipped with Hornady vmax (or similar) bullets as they are highly frangible and dont go through much in terms of barriers or people.
I have only seen a few that are full auto and they reside with the swat team. The majority of these rifles are in the cars of patrol officers and they are semi-auto.
Anyway- just some of my experiences with police work. I am also a critic of cops to some degree, but this militarization thing is a bunch of garbage. I mean think about it: The average ratio of cop to citizen in the US is 2/1000. Does anyone really think that the police could take over our communities? I know in my city the ratio is more like 1.25/1000 so even less of a chance.
Oftentimes the equipment they carry is military style in terms of looks or firepower. As for looks, yes. As for firepower, not even close. My platoon in Iraq had 16 humvees, 16 .50 cal MGs, 8 M240B MG, AT4, frags etc and everyone with an M4 carbine or M249 SAW. 50 troops armed like that. I have never seen any police organization in this entire country who has that kind of firepower at their disposal. I know for a fact if I brought in that Platoon to this city I could lay waste to a significant number of the cops before we were nickel and dimed to death by the armed citizen or police. Until that time, though the police would have a heck of a job on their hands dealing with firepower that can trash cop cars and buildings from 1000 meters. Their helicopters would only get a couple passes before the airspace was filled with 50 cal rounds.
People who say the cops firepower mirrors the military are crazy. They say that because their view is based not on knowledge, but on suppositions and fear. Go join the Army or Marines if you want to see what firepower is. Compared to that, our police might as well not even be armed.
So- militarization???? Not even close. As a former cop and military guy I can comfortably say we have nothing to worry about. If you are worried about it quit participating in riots and running a methlab in your home or dealing arms. If you are not doing those things you have nothing to worry about. I am in the same boat as you and I lose not one wink of sleep over it.
I will close with this: There is not one single police agency who has written in its job description that police officers are supposed to get stabbed, shot, beaten up etc. The law doesn’t even mandate we subject ourselves to that risk. In fact, the law has established that we have absolutely no duty at all to risk out lives for anyone. The law does stipulate though (at least in AZ) that a police officer has no duty whatsoever to retreat….. ie run away. That isn’t in our nature anyway, but in the future in many municipalities I see the continues hostility towards the police to lead to a situation where they wont get there till it is definitely safe to do so. We are already seeing that is NY, Chicago and a few other places. Their crime is skyrocketing because it is easier for the cops to just go clean up than it is to do their jobs. I mean hey it’s a lot easier to defend what happens if you were never there…LOL
Thank you for making my point for me. Most of those scary fully automatic rifles you have been ranting about...are not. They are semi automatic.
SG knows the difference and the point I've made. For those of you who do not:
Fully automatic = a single trigger pull continues to fire bullets until the magazine is empty or you take your finger off the trigger.
Semi automatic = one trigger pull equals one bullet.
SG is trying to scare you because the two weapons LOOK the same. He is also inaccurately telling you that all police officers are carrying fully automatic rifles. This is untrue. SWAT are issued fully automatics. Everyone else who has one is issued semi automatic. Not every officer even has a rifle. Half my crew do not have rifles.
MRAP need is uncommon, but far from your "exceptionally rare" statement. The rest of your comment makes you hard to take seriously or consider reasonable.
Most agencies have switched to the AR15. Maybe your area hasn't. Poor choice in my opinion. Either way, it still isn't a scary fully automatic is it?
Not a convincing argument against that scary black rifle.
That is a really weak argument. If you really are an experienced shooter and have any sort of quality self defense training, then shame on you for even saying that. You shoot til the threat is stopped, whether that be 1, 5, 10 or 20.
I honestly can't believe you just said that. Maybe you have far less experience with firearms and self defense than I have given you credit for. That has to be it. *smh*
Was that with those scary black fully automatic rifles?
Mostly handguns. One we are not sure due to the large number of firearms we recovered. Most likely either a .30-30 or a .45 revolver. One a misfiring 30.06.
This list does not include the people who did not fire their weapon at me/us. The rifle/shotgun count climbs steeply in that category.
Mostly handguns. One we are not sure due to the large number of firearms we recovered. Most likely either a .30-30 or a .45 revolver. One a misfiring 30.06.
This list does not include the people who did not fire their weapon at me/us. The rifle/shotgun count climbs steeply in that category.
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