james12

Of course Joseph Smith commented on this scripture and said that the term "paradise" should be "spirit world". But I have also felt that another interpretation might have some merit. Appearently some early versions of the New Testament (Curetonian, Codex Vaticanus) have a comma or pause mark after the word "today" rendering the verse as follows, "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." This implies that the theif might not be with Christ that very day in paradise but will at some future time. Since the theif had previously asked the Lord to remember him when he, Jesus, had entered into his kingdom it makes sense to me that the promise was more substantial then a statement about entering into the Spirit World. Every last person will enter the world of spirits.

Here is what Elder McConkie has written:

In the King Follett discourse Joseph had some important things to say about the mind. He said, "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself." Based on my own experience, this statement, and scriptures (see Romans 7:6-7, Alma 36:4 among others). I would agree with you that the spiritual mind is that part which some call the witness, consciousness, or awareness. It is co-equal with God. It is awareness itself. However, we also have a carnal mind. Our carnal mind is a tool for us to use, but sometimes we get lost in it. The tool becomes the master and we are swept away with a battery of thoughts. But religion itself is tied up with using our spiritual mind to control our body. Joseph in the same discourse further said, "I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it has no beginning." Our spiritual core, never had a beginning and will never have an end, but we may be added upon. There are a few statements in Lectures on Faith, particularly Lecture Fifth, which I find enlightening. In that lecture it defines three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But it does not speak as we often speak of these three. I believe this lecture is helping us understand about ourselves. It is written, "And he being the Only begotten of the father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one..." And further on still speaking of the Son it says, "...being filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father, which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments....And as the Son partakes of the fullness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fullness to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so in like manner, the saints are to be one in them." Finally in the Q & A section of the same lecture we read, "Do the Father and the Son posses the same mind: They do. (see John 5:30, John 6:38, John 10:30). ...What is this mind? The Holy spirit. (see John 15:26, Gal 4:6)." Important ideas about who we are and how we approach God are being communicated here. It is unfortunate that some disregard them.

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zil, Anddenex, and Carbornedum, Thanks for the discussion. I assure you that I understand this is our second estate, that I have considered well what the Lord means when he says "endless punishment", and that I have heard and taken into account the quotes from Joseph on children who die young. Further, I assure you that I do not believe as Catholics or other religions do about purgatory. Instead I believe I side with Brigham Young, James E. Talmage and others on this matter. There is more to understand about salvation then the basics we have been taught. I have here tried to highlight a few issues which should be considered for further understanding.

No other faith believes Adam purposely fell that man might experience this life. Nor do they understand that this mortality allows us to move up in progression after this life is over. My second paragraph does not contradict the idea of progression to a different kingdom after our life here is over. I'll leave it for you to consider.

How will a person who has died gain what can only be experienced during mortality in the Millennium? (I realize there is a quote from Joseph about parents raising their children during the millennium. But as I understand it these are resurrected children not mortal children.) I wouldn't say blasphemous but I would say wrong. Gospel Principles puts it in basic and simple terms. If we could not progress beyond a certain point in our pre-mortal life how is it possible that some progressed further and only needed to be alive for a moment before dying? Why shouldn't we just spend some more time learning what the others learned in our pre-earth existence instead of coming here and having to suffer it out? Sure it might take us a long long time but we had the time! Further, if what you say is true, what did they learn in those few seconds that all of the rest of us needed to struggle to learn over a life time and more? If there was some easy way to avoid all but two seconds of this life that is what I would take. And if I had to experience this life to learn it than why didn't others? It's no good saying that they progressed further, because they couldn't! That is why we are all here. Sure people have different talents and abilities but there are some lessons that can only be learned here. I have a very hard time believing that in two seconds someone learned that lesson or those lessons.

I understand your position. Some individuals come to earth and die when they are not even one day old. Other's live 100 years. There is no way the baby experienced all the vicissitudes of life (or the adult either for that matter). This causes a problem in the way we talk about the need to experience certain trials here on earth compared to the way we talk about the foreknowledge of God. The baby experienced almost no trials but is saved in the celestial kingdom. The adult faced challenges lasting 100 years and may or may not reach the celestial kingdom. As LDS we claim that God's foreknowledge is sufficient that the baby is saved in the kingdom of God while on the other hand we tell the old man that he needed to face trials to gain experience that could be gained in no other way. If, as you said earlier, we were on the same standing as our brother's and sister's at some point before this life. How is it that one individual need not experience this earth life, while the other must do so? Do you see the dual standard? Either all must experience this life, all need not do so because of God's foreknowledge, or there is something we do not understand. You need to finish the sentence in the same quote you provided. I'll give you it here in full with the part you are missing highlighted, "A man may partake of endless torment, and when he has paid the penalty for his transgression, he is released, but the punishment remains and awaits the next culprit, and so on forever”. Note he does not say, "his punishment remains" but instead says, "the punishment remains". In other words the punishment remains for the next culprit, but the one who repents is released from it. This gets into questions about the type of God's justice. In our justice system a judge or jury defines how long a person must go to prison in order to pay for their crime. Let's suppose it is ten years. If that person exhibits good behavior often they will be released before the ten years have been served. Why would a parole board consider reducing the sentence? Because the convict has learned their lesson. In other words the person has changed. The purpose for the punishment has ended. I believe this is how God works. He does not require a person to suffer one moment longer than they need to. If the person changes and pleads pardon the Lord forgives. The punishment has ended!

There is a huge difference. We understand that there are certain experiences that can only be learned here in mortality. We understand that it is thanks to Adam's fall and Christ's atonement that we have the opportunity to repent here and now. We understand the suffering and pain we must endure after this life is over. Please do not misunderstand, this is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Here on earth we have an opportunity we will find nowhere else. Because we are cut off from God's presence it is only in this life that we face certain challenges. There is no other way.

I agree with you on the first part of your answer. Regarding the second part, you say "individuals will be cut off from becoming like our Father in heaven if they have chosen a lesser glory/state..." this is the part I am was asking you about. It is here that I believe we disagree. I would say that no one is cut off from progression in the eternities because of the kingdom of glory they have chosen, except for the sons of perdition. The reason they are cut off is because they refuse to repent and they will refuse to repent even after they have seen the son of God. The gospel plan has become useless to them as Spencer Kimball testified, " In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness where there is no light Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125). It is only these that will partake of the second death. You previously said, "God's foreknowledge allows him to be the perfect judge." From this statement I gather that you believe that even though we have not experienced certain aspects of this earth life, God can judge us because of his foreknowledge of what we might do. I am questioning this concept. LDS theology teaches us that we had to come down to earth to experience life in a fallen state so that we might learn and grow. How then can we believe both that we had to come to earth, and that we don't need to experience life because God already knows what we will do. I contend that either we have to have a mortal experience in its fullness or that we do not, and God can judge us without us having to pass through the experience. I see no justification in scripture for your separation of suffering into two types. Nor in your quotes, they are not saying someone is still being punished after their torment ends. They are saying that God's punishment remains for others to suffer if they do not chose wisely. When someone repents the punishment is over, done, finished for that person. But others may still suffer the punishment because it is eternal. This is simply a form of the law of the harvest. Either we do not obtain and have to live with ourselves or we repent, end our suffering, and progress. This is exactly what D&C 19:5 states, "And surely every man must repent or suffer..." and again D&C 29:44, "And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not". There is no middle ground. If we repent the suffering is over.

I'm glad you agree. My point is not to reveal true principles that have been purposely kept hidden, but to indicate areas where some tend to harden their heart. By shedding light on these areas they can instead be open to personal revelation. The Lord is willing to reveal such truth to anyone who will seek it, but when we harden our hearts we receive the lesser portion of the word until we know nothing concerning the mysteries and we are taken captive by the devil (see Alma 12:10-11).

Hi Anddenex, Thanks for taking up this discussion it is an important and interesting one. So in your interpretation we could progress in the eternities before this life, perhaps eons and eons back but at the end of this life are cut off from further progression? Also in your interpretation this life is sufficient because of what we have been given before it? This does not "taste" good to me. Given that we had such a long time before to progress why must a person be stopped now? I also question this idea of God's foreknowledge and his judgement of us. If he knew what we were to choose and yet still required us to pass through this earth life, so that we could experience what we need to, why do we think that he can judge us after this life such that we don't need to experience the rest of it? It is certainly just to assign a person a state they choose to be in, I have no problem with such justice. However, I do have a problem believing that a person who desires to further their progression can never do so again because of the very limited opportunity they had here. You asked, "If you believe in eternal progression, I am fine with this, then the question in return is how does one justify the concept in light of all scriptures/doctrine specifying there is no return, endless punishment, endless misery for those who have listed to obey not God and his spirit." In this case the Lord has given us the anwer. He said, "And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." (D&C 19:4-6). In other words the punishment is eternal but a person will pass through it once he repents. The punishment is eternal but a person does not need to endlessly suffer that punishment, once he has changed his/her punishment reaches an end.

I likewise over an extended period of time studied scripture on the matter in the light of the spirit and what I have found leads me to believe that there is progression throughout eternity. You have not answered the question, just pushed our very limited time frame to include the spirit world. So you would say that progression on earth and the spirit world is sufficient to determine our endless destiny? This is a strange teaching. In essence before this life some of us were telestial and so we will continue on the same course (telestial) after this life. From my perspective this line of thinking not only cuts off our opportunity to progress in the future but would lead us to think that we had limited opportunity in the past. Actually "A" does do harm. It leads a person to believe that either they themselves, or their father, mother, brother, sister etc. will be forever cut off from full happiness despite anything they (or anyone else) can do in a future state. They are forever dammed. It also rejects this teaching:

The church has never declared a definitive position on the issue of progression between kingdoms, despite Bruce R. McConkie's Seven Heresies talk. Certainly other prophets and apostles have thought it a possibility. “The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.” (Secretary of the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965, cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. XV, No. 1, Spring 1982, p.181-183) “None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].” (Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855) “I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.” (J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3) "It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation, by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement within each of the three specified kingdoms will be provided for; though as to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation. Eternal advancement along different lines is conceivable. We may conclude that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase." (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, (1990), p.371) If I believe we are able to progress between kingdoms over eternities that does not mean that I stop trying to do my best while here in this life. As always, this life is the time to work out our salvation, that does not change. While in this state of probation we have been given a special opportunity, we must avail ourselves of it while here. Here then are questions for those who say that progression after final judgement is not possible: How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more? How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression? Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter.

As more evidence consider this from Brigham Young:

Consider: Here on earth we are all at different states, in the telestial kingdom we have been told there are different glories, we know there are three great divisions in heaven, and the Savior told us there are many mansions. Given all that, do you really believe that each persons glory will be exactly the same in the celestial kingdom? That Christ himself has the same glory as us?

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:2

I personally believe that our understanding of three degrees within the celestial kingdom is an erroneous one. Joseph made a statement about it but it is only documented in one location by William Clayton. The statement is as follows, "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not he cannot obtain it. (D&C 131:1-3). I find it much more likely that the term "celestial glory" in this instance refers to heaven in general, as in "heavenly glories". That would mean that Joseph was referring to all of the three kingdoms of glory (telestial, terestrial, and celestial) and that he was stating that in order to enter the highest of these, what we term today the "Celestial Kingdom", we would need to be married and sealed up unto eternal life. See more about this here. Further, we know that there are many degrees and many kingdoms in the eternal realm as the Savior once testified. In the celestial kingdom I'm sure there are many many different degrees of glory. We must understand that the three different degrees of glory are simply three main divisions in heaven. The telestial is ruled by the Holy Ghost, the terestrial is ruled by the Son, and the Celestial is ruled by the Father. It is also not enough simply to go through the motions of being baptized, being confirmed, or being sealed. This is attested to in D&C 76 wherein it is said of those in the telestial glory, "These are they who say they are some of one and some of another - some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; but received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant" (D&C 76: 100-101). Note that these say they are Christ's but it is clear that it never entered their hearts. These are those of the telestial sphere. I believe in order to enter the Celestial kingdom a person needs to be sealed up unto eternal life. This is more than simply entering into the form of eternal marriage with a spouse. Having read much of what Joseph Smith said, when he talks about sealing he talks about it more in terms of us receiving the sure word of prophecy (calling and election sure) not so much in kneeling across the altar with our spouse. For instance in the same D&C 130 he says, "The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood. It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance [ie. not knowing he has been sealed up to eternal life]." (D&C 130:5-6). Or during another occasion he was describing priesthood power. He said, So, at the end of this long post, I would say that to enter into the celestial kingdom means to be sealed up by the Holy Spirit of promise unto eternal life. If we obtain that promise from the Lord the storms of the adversary may beat upon us but we will not fall. At the end of our days we will obtain what we have previously been promised by the voice of the Lord himself and will enter into the celestial kingdom.

Joseph Smith said it this way:

Was Adam fashioned from dust and breath added to him? Was Eve created when God plucked a rib from Adam's side and formed flesh around it? Did an actual serpent come to Eve and talk to her about eating the fruit? Is the earth only 6,000 years old? Did God really create a tree that would turn Adam and Eve into mortals? Ponder these, consider on them. Read the words of prophets on the matter. You will come to know that the story in many instances should not be understood literally. This does not mean that Adam and Eve did not exist, simply that some parts of the story are a bit fanciful.

The Adam and Eve story is an allegory and should not be taken literally. For example nakedness and clothes are very symbolic and I would be very cautious about drawing any literal conclusions in this regard.

I would agree that all of the above are important. But based on why you have said I would urge you to spend time pondering and meditating on what you learn. Only in the silence of our souls can we "hear" the still small voice. When we are caught up in reading more, or in worries and concerns we will miss the Lord's voice speaking to our minds. President McKay once said, "I think we pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. In our worship there are two elements: One is spiritual communion arising from our own meditation; the other, instruction from others, particularly from those who have authority to guide and instruct us. Of the two, the more profitable introspectively is meditation. Meditation is the language of the soul. It is defined as “a form of private devotion, or spiritual exercise, consisting in deep, continued reflection on some religious theme.” Meditation is a form of prayer." (Conference Report, Apr. 1946, 113).

Thanks everyone. Your comments help me keep the activity in the right perspective. I'm not in charge, so my plan is to be more helpful and supportive because I know what a challenge and stress it can be to put the Christmas Party together.

Last night I met with an assigned group to help plan the Ward Christmas Party. The Relief Society President had previously met with her activities committee and come up with what I consider an extravagant plan. It is to be a breakfast for dinner with pancakes, bacon, breakfast casseroles, parfait, hot chocolate, orange juice, and cookies. They want to string snowflakes back and forth across the gym on fishing line along with snow flakes on the walls, they plan to have a video of ward events from the year playing in the background, a picture booth, and decorations on the stage and at each table. The program on the other hand seems rather simple in comparison. The primary kids sing a song or two, the ward sings a few hymns, and the bishop gives a message. We plan to solicit the wards help with the pancakes, casseroles, bacon, cookies, as well as asking a number of people to take down and setup. I suggested ways to simplify it, but my voice was mostly drowned out and I started feeling like the contrarian. What do you think? Is this too complex, or am I just killing good ideas? What is the right balance for a Ward Christmas Party?

With protests in many cities around the US I wonder if protesters will ever recognize the real problem. It is not Donald Trump and all he has said (as bad as it is). The fundamental problem is that over time we have allowed one person to have such power over us. On his word alone the country can go to war, he can issue executive orders effecting 100's of millions, and he can even tell store owners who is allowed in their bathrooms. A recent article I read said it so well: Unfortunately, I don't think the protesters will see that power is the problem. I suspect nothing will curb the power of the President or this National government short of internal conflict, if even that does. Instead, the left will try and elect someone who can "stand up" to the right. In return the right will try and enforce their will, and the real loser in this game will be our personal freedom. Am I just pessimistic? Does anyone ever see the possibility that the President, Congress, or this machine we call government will lessen it's hold over us?