james12

Five years is a long time. To have been clean for that long probably means you have made significant changes to your life. While of course not good, one mistake does not put you back at square one. It does not erase all the changes you have made nor all the self control you have gained. So don't make the issue bigger than it is or compound it by supposing that since you had one drink you might as well have two. I don't think you need to let your whole ward know what happened. If your married, let your wife know. Go to the bishop, discuss it with him and get back on the path. He should keep that confidence. If you address this now by repenting and increasing your resolve to do right this will simply be another obstacle you overcame in your progress towards eternal life.

If you have not read it already, I recommend the book Life Everlasting, a Definitive Study of Live After Death by Duane S. Crowther. It contains quotes by general authorities and many accounts of visions and experiences of LDS members in the spirit world. Of course it is not doctrine but I believe it contains many truths. One experience in the book from Heber Q. Hale, then President of the Boise Stake: I presently beheld a mighty multitude of men, the largest I had ever seen gathered in one place, who I immediately recognized as soldiers, the millions who had been slaughtered and rushed so savagely into the world of spirits during the great world war [WWI]. Among them moved, calmly and majestically, a great general in supreme command. As I drew nearer, I received the kingly smile and generous welcome of a great loving man, General Richard W. Young. Then came the positive conviction to my soul, that of all the men living or dead, there is not one who is so perfectly fitted for the great mission unto which he had been called. He commands immediately the attention and respect of all the soldiers. He is at once a great general and a great High Priest of God. No earthly field of labor to which he could have been assigned, could compare with it in importance and extent. I passed from this scene to return later when I found General Young had this vast army of men completely organized with officers over successive divisions, and all were seated, and he was preaching the gospel in great earnestness to them. Another from Henry Zollinger, who met his two brothers-in-law in the spirit world and saw one working as a mission president, he says; "We then had the privilege of visiting my brothers-in-law who had died. William, who had been on a mission in Austrailia...told me he was presiding over a large mission and was very happy in his labors and to tell his parents and his people not to mourn about him as he was losing nothing but doing much good." I tend to agree that the work is organized well in the spirit world.

Elder Scott shared a host of scriptures. Were these just a list of scriptures that had helped him over the years or was there a theme he hoped to convey?

I wonder if we are too cavalier in regards to the importance of Temples. Every temple built helps form a link between this world and the next. The mere presence of a temple provides a beacon for both members and non-members. For good reason every temple is labeled as a "House of the Lord". George Q. Cannon said, "Every foundation stone that is laid for a Temple, and every Temple completed … lessens the power of Satan on the earth, and increases the power of God and Godliness. (“The Logan Temple,” Millennial Star, Nov. 12, 1877, 743)" No community centered event center could ever compare.

Yes my whole "Satan's Plan of Happiness" post was an attempt at irony. I hoped to show, in a comical way, what a flimsy house of cards needs to set up in order to even consider Satan's plan capable of improving our condition. I have enjoyed the discussion and don't mean to disparage anyone from thinking through the issue. I think the comments and questions have been useful. It has even helped clarify a few thoughts in my own head. It seems sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across very well in writing. I'm not a big smiley face fan but I'm afraid I might need to use some more of them in the future! :)

Is it really so impossible to believe that individuals followed Satan's plan based on something else besides logic? I must look to myself to try and find some of these answers... Why do I follow Satan? Is it because I believe his plan will exalt me? Is it because logically his plan makes the most sense? Or, do I follow based on feeling? In the worst case scenario do I continue to follow until I am a slave to appetite? I must conclude that logic has little to do with it. So is it really so impossible to imagine that spirits followed Satan in pre-mortality based on feeling and not logic?

Let me set up some ground rules to allow for clear speculation on Satan's Plan of Redemption or Plan of Happiness. These core assumptions will allow us to have a great conversation on the subject. Satan's Character Assumption 1: The Great Deciever the Father of Lies told the truth. Nothwithstanding all subsequent lies and half-truths we will assume that when Satan said, "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" he ment it. We will base this on the fact that he was a "son of the morning". Assumption 2: The most extreme megalomaniac in the history of the known universe wanted to improve the lot of man. We read in Moses 1: "Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me." We will assume this blasphemy began after his plan was rejected. We will also assume that when he originally sought to be the Only Begotten this was not a massive play for power but that he sincerely desired to improve our condition out of the kindness of his heart. Workings of the Plan Assumption 3: By restricting our agency we would progress. Even though D&C 93:29-31 indicates that our very existance implies the ability to act for ourselves, we will assume that Satan, by eliminating or vastly restricting our agency, could help us progress. This is the highlight of the plan and the real exciting part...because we have no options we don't need to choose!!! Assumption 4: After the plan is complete Satan will give us back our agency. I might be making a small logical leap here but I don't believe anyone wants to be the devil or an angel to the devil (I realize Satan is a good guy so I might be mistaken). Regardless, at some point (perhaps after the plan is complete) we will assume that Satan intends to give us back our agency. Of course we will continue to worship him, otherwise he would lose his honor and glory, but we can now continue to progress. There you have it. I'm starting to wonder why I chose Father's plan in the first place. Except for the fact that they don't have a physical body Satan's minions on the earth are likely so happy, not to mention the power.

questioning_seeker, I am afraid your previous post is an example of what can happen if we suppose that Lucifer presented a valid plan. He did not do so. Also, I do not believe the goal was to return us to live with our Father. The goal was to attain a body like Father has. Because of these two misunderstandings I believe some of your conclusions go astray. The idea of Lucifer's supposed "plan" returning us to live with God in some better condition holds no weight. After all a third part of the hosts of heaven chose Lucifer's plan. They are not going to return to live with God. As far as I know the only confirmation in the scriptures that Lucifer's plan would have improved our condition comes from the father of all lies himself. All who accepted God's plan will attain a physical body. This will put them in a far better state than any who chose to follow Satan (with the only exception being perhaps the son's of perdition who are very few in number). Not only will they be in a better state than those who chose to follow Satan but they will be in a better state than if they had remained as spirit bodies. A physical body is a step up in progression even for those who do not attain the Celestial Kingdom.

"Christ did not present a plan of redemption and salvation nor did Lucifer. There were not two plans up for consideration, there was only one; and that was the plan of the Father: originated, developed, presented and put in for by him." (Bruce R. McConkie, Improvement Era, May 1953 p1) Sometimes we even miss the question. It was not which plan to choose but it was "whom shall I send" to implement the plan.

1. Yes 2. I'm not sure who revealed the doctrine originally but here is a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith on the subject, "Some members of the Church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium. Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:86) I'm not sure what "BEFORE the final judgment" in your question means. To me the issue revolves around when the final judgement occurs. Bruce R. McConkie said, "The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared." (The Seven Deadly Heresies, italics added) The final judgment occurs before the resurrection so I don't see any contradiction. I don't think questions #1 and #2 imply that resurrected beings will continually remain on the earth. However, a similar thing happens every day. And, it is even more difficult to live with and interact with people living a telestial law!

Here is one thought I have after reading your post. Trust Once trust is violated it needs to be earned back. She has violated your trust recently and so it is only understandable that you don't trust her right now. She needs to earn your trust back by consistently honoring the commitment you both made to each other. I think there may be a few things that can help this along like honest communication and evidence, even in small instances, that she is committed. But even once she is willing to do these things it will still just take time. Just for clarification... Forgiveness is not the same as trust. I may forgive someone but that does not mean I trust them. It does mean I let the Lord deal with justice. Love is also different than trust. I remember a story I heard about a mission president at a zone conference, he wrote up on the black board one word, "TRUST". He told the missionaries, "In our relationship to Heavenly Father it is better to be trusted than loved" and I agree. Our relationships here are the same way.

To further tubaloth's point that, "Agency was always there." The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Agency states: "Agency is an essential ingredient of being human, "inherent in the spirit of man" (McKay, p. 366) both in the premortal spirit existence (D&C 29:36) and in mortality. No being can possess sensibility, rationality, and a capacity for happiness without it (2 Ne. 2:11-13, 23; D&C 93:30)." From D&C93:29-30 we read that Intelligence was not made and that Intelligence is independent in that sphere which God has placed it, to act for itself. It appears that a core ingredient in independent existence is the ability to understand and make rational choices. Based on the above statements the question might then become, "What was the point of the garden of Eden and Adam's and Eve's choice to eat the fruit?" I would say that it was to have an experience separate from God. If Adam and Eve were with God why would they make a wrong choice? They needed to know through their own experience the difference between good and evil.

I agree with the good clarification about tea and coffee and other drinks given in the previous posts. This thread reminds me of a good story out of David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism where Pres. McKay deals with the caffeinated soft drinks issue... During the intermission of a theatrical presentation, his host offered to get refreshments: "His hearing wasn’t very good, and I got right down in front of him and I said, ‘President McKay, what would you like to drink? All of our cups say Coca Cola on them because of our arrangement with Coca Cola Bottling, but we have root beer and we have orange and we have Seven-Up. What would you like to drink?’ And he said, ‘I don’t care what it says on the cup, as long as there is Coke in the cup.”

I agree with beefche, some of what one does can be explained in advance and should be. It would definitely help a person who is going through the endowment for the first time. I remember when I first went through. I had grown up in the LDS culture and so was surprised by all of the "ritual" and active participation. An explanation of the process would have been helpful. But as to the meaning of the symbols, that is another matter. On its face there is not much special about a symbol. If I take the symbol of the sacrament at face value I might explain it in these terms, "Pretend bread represents a dead body, after someone says a prayer, eat it." Based on such an explanation I can imagine someone thinking, "that is strange and weird." However, the sacredness of the sacrament, the value and meaning of it is wrapped up in what the symbol represents and my commitment to the covenant made. The temple is very similar. I might explain it another way. Has the spirit ever touched you so profoundly that words are inadequate? It has me, and in fact I have a few times in the past tried to explain the depth of what I felt. Usually this ends up in a little bit of a disappointment for me because either they were not in the right frame of mind or I am unable to communicate the feeling. This is the problem of trying to describe temple ordinances. In fact, there are so many symbols of this nature and their meanings are so profound that explanation through words is inadequate at best and blaspheme at worst.

Speaking of the endowment specifically I believe many people have a "clue". However, the full import of that ordinance does not come the first time a person recieves the endowment. It is so full of symbolisim that it takes many, many times of going to unravel. However, just to be fair, I think few members (I might include myself here) understand the full import of even the first ordinances of baptisim and the sacrament. Do they understand Nephi's statement in 2 Ne 32:6 or D&C 84:20-21? President McKay one time remarked, "There are few, even temple workers, who comprehend the full meaning and power of the temple endowment. Seen for what it is, it is the step-by-step ascent into the Eternal Presence." Then he added, "If our young people could but glimpse it, it would be the most powerful spiritual motivation of their lives!"

I'm not sure I know all the answers to the above questions but this is an important gospel topic. Let me add a few items... Elder Oaks stated in 1985 that, "The basis of the government of God is the eternal family" (Parental Leadership in the Family). Family is the government of God! It boggles the mind. This one statement breeds 100 others. But I don't doubt it. Our Father in Heaven is anxious that we be organized into families before, during, and after this life. Let me share a few quotes and thoughts in conjunction with this. Brigham Young told about a visit he had from Joseph Smith. Brigham quoting Joseph Smith said, "Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized in great confusion." Brigham then explained what he saw, "Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe but I saw it, and saw when the Priesthood had been taken from the earth, and how it must be joined together, so that perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity." (Brigham Young Collection, February 17, 1847) Here on earth Satan has wrecked much havoc on the family organization. So much so that we often question how it will work in the eternities. As with any organization there has to be order. Even on earth nothing can get done without a chain of communication and responsibility. Establishing order is a vital part of the priesthood and temple work. In fact, I believe the temple has much more to say on this point then many suppose at first. Elder Scott said, "While participating in temple ordinances, consider your relationship to Jesus Christ and His relationship to our Heavenly Father. This simple act will lead to greater understanding of the supernal nature of the temple ordinances." Based on the above quote it is clear that our Father in Heaven organized the human family before they came to this earth. Another from Heber C. Kimball at the funeral of Jedediah M. Grant. Quoting what Jedediah M. Grant saw in the spirit world he says, "He said to me, brother Heber, I have been into the spirit world two nights in succession, and, of all the dreads that ever came across me, the worst was to have to again return to my body, though I had to do it. But O, says he, the order and government that were there! When in the spirit world, I saw the order of righteous men and women; beheld them organized in their several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction to my vision; I could see every man and woman in their grade and order. I looked to see whether there was any disorder there, but there was none; neither could I see any death nor any darkness, disorder or confusion. He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities; and when he looked at them he saw grade after grade, and all were organized and in perfect harmony." (Journal of Discourses Vol. 4 pp 136-137) After this life we will again be organized in families. Family is a vital part of Father's plan. Last one from Theodore M. Burton in General Conference April 1975, "One thing we often fail to realize is that our priesthood comes to us through the lineage of our fathers and mothers. The Lord explained it in these words: 'Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers. …' (D&C 86:8.) 'Oh,' I can hear some of you say, 'there must be something wrong with that statement, for I am the only member of my family who has joined the Church. How could I have received the priesthood from my parents?' In this scripture the Lord was not talking about your priesthood line of authority. He was talking about your inherited right to receive and use priesthood power..." The reception and use of priesthood power is tied to family, including ancestors and posterity.

I have just been studying this topic for a talk I am going to give in church next Sunday on spiritual preparedness. I found something meaningful to me. From a talk called "Faith Like a Grain of Mustard Seed" by Elder Kim B. Clark. He discusses the fact that as we push to do accomplish things we feel are right we are at the frontier of our faith. He first quotes Elder Eyring and then explains, "...President Eyring has taught, “Increased spiritual strength is a gift from God which He can give when we push in His service to our limits.” That is where we find our personal frontier. There is a personal frontier for each one of us in every covenant, commandment, calling, and assignment we receive from the Lord. The frontier is defined by the light we have already received and by our knowledge, understanding, skill, and experience." I think this discribes how I have found faith over the years. A few frontiers for me were, being asked to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover for the first time. At the end of the book I had such an assurance that it was true. I remember being asked to speak in church for the first time. I was scared to death bu did my best. Afterwords the spirit impressed upon my mind the importance of speaking the Lords will. I remember serving a mission in a country that was uterly foriegn. I cried the first night I was there because I was so overwelmed and lost. But I grew leaps and bounds. When we push just beyond our limits, faith grows...

The core of the original question is an interesting one. Tamrajh said... "If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ? Why are black people still black? Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?" If I am not representing the above question inaccurately maybe I can rephrase it to remove some of the "hot button" terms and topics which have already been discussed... If we each will be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why do future generations suffer the consequences of previous generations? This is a difficult question with almost no easy answers. Let me just share a few thoughts... There is little doubt in my mind that future generations suffer because of the bad choices of previous generations. Just take the world around us. Children suffer every day because of their parents. Divorce is terribbly painful for children. Physical abuse is common. But some choices extend past the first generation. They may extend to many generations. For example, a father may leave the church and never return. Because of this, his children never know the gospel. It continues on to the children's, children's, children. How can this be reconciled with the second article of faith which states, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression"? 1. Suffering vs. Punishment Because I suffer does that mean I have been punished by our Father in Heaven? Can suffering actually be a blessing? I'm not sure I know. But regardless of the answers to these questions I am confident that a loving Heavenly Father will more than compensate me for all my loss, all my pain, and all my heartache. 2. Punishment vs. Consequences of Free Will It is difficult for us to determine the dividing line between man's agency and God's justice. Our Father in Heaven strictly allows us our agency, even if our choices will effect more than just ourselves (which they almost always do). Does this equate to God's punishment? 3. Prophecy vs Causality In some cases I know what will happen if wrong choices are made. If my daughter puts a piece of metal in a light socket I know she will get shocked (which has happened incidentally). However, because I can predict the event I certainly didn't cause the event. There are a few of my thoughts for what they are worth. That may be more question than answer but so be it.