james12

Seminarysnoozer, As you have said, we disagree on a few points. Not, I think, in the purpose for this life but rather in the path to achieve the ultimate outcome. The discussion has been interesting. I'm sure these or similar thoughts will never be too far from my mind as I am often faced with my own mortality.

As LittleWyvern said, it was just the method not the message. Thanks for the truly thoughtful reply.

I think maybe you missed my point. You agree our character matured in the spirit world. You even use the phrase "to mature". So I'll re-ask the question, what were we doing for this near infinite amount of time? With that answer in mind I would ask, what is different about the test in our second estate compared to our first?Now to your question, I don't think we need to change the character of our spirit (as you said, it was developed during our first estate). Instead, what we need to do is allow our spirit to control our body. In this way we will incorporate the spiritual attributes of our character into our physical bodies. We are dual beings. The combination of our spirit and our body now constitute our character. Read again Elder Packer, “Our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character.” Again it is about alowing our spirit to control our body. Did Christ spirit control his body perfectly? Yes. Hence in this way, as in others, he is truely one, "...thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit,...,being one God" (Mosiah 15:5). I propose that it is the spirit and the body that make the difference. The value of this life is not simply in remembering what happened but making choices that form habits that then determine our destiny. The habits formed in the body will effect who we are in the eternal worlds. By the way, good example. I think it hits on a fundamental difference of views between what you and I think. We are in a fallen state. Our spirit takes on traits of our body only as we allow the adversary to influence us. Each person is faced with different challenges due to their fallen nature but it is what we do with these challenges that defines who we are in the eternities, not the challenges themselves. Indeed it is vital we remember who we are. Who wants to go back to a fallen set of traits?

Really? So does the Lord use fear to accomplish his purposes? President Monson takes the exact scripture you quote above yet comes to a different conclusion, "Remember the promise of the Lord: “If ye are prepared ye shall not fear.” Fear is a deadly enemy of progress." (Pres. Thomas S. Monson, Ensign April 2008, "Treasure of Eternal Value") Elder Packer has said, "Fear is the opposite of faith". Scriptures are also clear "doubt not, fear not". Fear and faith cannot coexist in the same person at the same time. I have no doubt that food storage is important and vital. However, should we take from the toolbox of the adversary to accomplish a righteous purpose? I for one am getting a little worn out of this tactic. It motivates for all the wrong reasons. This tactic is often used when discussing the last days but I have seen it can creep into a host of other gospel topics. Is there not a better way?

Interesting that you discuss our first estate as an infinite number of years and talk about traits being matured instead of changed in the blink of an eye. How did we mature these traits during our first estate? I submit that the process of change required then is similar to process required now. How do we perfect our character without temptation? Good question. I must submit that at times I ponder this question. I think your analogy fails to consider our physical body in the equation. We are not resurrected back to a fallen state nor or we in a worse condition than when we ended our first estate (sons of perdition excepted). Remember, a physical body is a step up in progression not a step down. How is that so? Note well what Elder Bednar has said, Our physical bodies increase the depth of our experience in a number of ways. We fail to recognize this here on earth as we have no frame of reference. Another thing is also certain. Our bodies affect our spirits. If we allow the evil influence of Satan to control our bodies we also damage our spirit. So I don't believe it is a simple matter of adding a number of talents to what we already have but instead we may add or loose talents. The real test of this life is to gain control of our body such that all the positive character and attributes we possessed as spirits are magnified through our body. He may place us in the right kingdom but even by your admission there is still more learning and growing. I wonder what type of development you think we are to do? What is it exactly that separates us from Christ?

Panacea, Thanks for this post. It is an important point I don't want anyone to miss. We are indeed saved by gace. His grace is sufficient to save us. Christ will make up the difference for our faults. If we make and honor sacred covenants then do the best we can Christ will get us into the kingdom. My good works alone will not save me, only His. But, at the time of the resurrection do we forever more posses the perfect attributes Christ possesses?

I can agree that Eternal Life is ultimately a gift from God received by living righteously. If I am given a gift (even the fullness of a gift) does that mean that I am now perfect? In other words, can God by giving me what he has make me who he is? I agree that perfecting of body and spirit is the goal of the second estate and when this is complete we are done. However, I think your post implies that our character is complete at the resurrection. If we live righteously you and I and many others will come forth in the first resurrection. Let's suppose that it is in 100 years. So within that time span do you believe we will have the same character and attributes as Christ?

Seminarysnoozer, I respect your opinion and want to understand your thoughts so let me ask a few questions (incidentally for other's reading this post I would love to hear your thoughts as well). However, I reserve the right to comment and ask further questions. 1. Will we be perfect in characteristics and attributes when we are resurrected? If so, how will it happen? Note: I do not mean perfect in form or free from death, disease, maladies etc. I take that as a given. 2. If we are not perfect, what do we need to improve and how do we do it? Please provide quotes and scriptures where possible.

I can agree there will be no temptations of Satan. However, our bodies will not be free from the effects of sin. Evil passions and desires will still need to be overcome. The resurrection gives us a perfect frame, free from disability etc., but that does not mean we magically become perfect people. From Mormon Doctrine under Resurrection: Imperfect, unjust people will be resurrected and will not be made perfect at the resurrection. Isn't this part of what caused Joseph Smith to marvel after reading John 5:29? What on earth is the resurrection of damnation? He says, If unjust people are resurrected and the restoration is simply the bringing back of evil for evil and good for good, how is it that appetites and passions will not need to be overcome?

I'm not sure if our disagreement here is semantics or substance. What do you mean we can grow in character but not change? I agree we will not be a different person, but is growth change? Do you agree that our desires appetites and passions will remain after we are resurrected? How then will these carnal temptations be overcome? Is the resurrection a ticket to be free from carnal temptations? Isn't the body which I lay down the same one I take up at the resurrection? EDIT: Carnal temptations may be a poor word choice on my part. We may not be directly tempted by Satan after the resurrection but our appetites and passions will remain. Thus we still must improve our character. And again from Elder Oaks: Agreed. In the spirit world we will not have carnal temptations only carnal habits as scars to the spirit. The body is indeed the source of carnal temptations but when we allow the spirit within us to control our body Satan losses control. Those who have a body have power over those who do not. Thus our body aids us in overcoming the temptations of Satan.

This may just be a point of clarification. It sounds like you are saying that our carnal state (ie physical bodies) will be perfected at the resurrection such that we will not need to work anymore to overcome the flesh. In other words our bodies will be perfect in character and attributes. I don't believe this is the case. As you have stated our bodies will be separated from our spirits at death. While in the spirit world we will not have our bodies to aid us in overcoming certain carnal temptations and sins. Hence in large measure we will be unable to effect much progression while in the spirit world. At the resurrection the glory we attain will be largely based on our righteousness in this life. Our bodies will be quickened based on our obedience to law. Bruce R. McConkie has said: Melvin J. Ballard stated: However, while we will all receive a perfect frame it is clear we will not be free from sin at the resurrection. Our bodies will simply be restored "carnal for carnal" or "good for good" (see Alma 41:13, D&C 76:16-17, Resurrection - general-conference). We will still have much work to do before our character and attributes are perfected. Indeed, it will be a long time after the resurrection before we are perfect.

I remember when I was at the Olive Garden one night. We were with my wife's side of the family who are all LDS and a little more reserved. I ordered Chicken Marsala or something similar. I was eating it like normal. After a while I started to notice that I was laughing a lot, talking much more than normal and I felt a little hyper. It dawned on me that somehow not all the alcohol had been cooked out. I did tell my wife what happened but not anyone else. We laughed about it.

I love this story about Pres. McKay, We shouldn't seek to make exceptions to the Word of Wisdom. But perhaps in some situations we can lessen our overly strict interpretation of it.

As if commitment could be pigeonholed into a certain type of clothing! It, of course, cannot. But can commitment be seen from a change in a persons outward appearance including clothing? Very often, "yes". Who could say all the ways this might happen. A shirt may be ironed where it was not before. A man may now put on a tie or a woman may add a neckless or earrings. I have seen it over and over again. Should I judge commitment based on this change in appearance? No. But it is none the less true, when a person changes on the inside they often change on the outside. Agreed. My point in giving that quote was really in regards to the second portion of the statement. I added this first portion just to provide context. My point is that our outward dress should reflect our inner commitment.

Of vital importance is our commitment to follow the Savior. I believe this ultimately does reflect in our dress. There is a message by the first presidency speaking of the garment but I believe it applies equally to our outward clothing. The letter says: wearing the garment is a sacred privilege. … [it] is an outward expression of an inner commitment to follow the Savior Jesus Christ” (First Presidency letter, 5 Nov. 1996). When our firm inner commitment begins to be reflected in our outward appearance we know we are on the right track. Of course there are some exceptions. There was a talk by Pres. Monson I have always loved. It is similar to RMGuys above story. Pres. Monson said:

Not at all, I appreciate the compliment.

I'm not sure what you are really asking. When you talk about not enduring to the end do you mean that the weight of what is expected of you is bringing you down and you are considering doing less? Or do you mean that you are considering committing a sin of comission and repenting later? I believe that between these two issues is a world of difference. Based on your comment about repenting in the spirit world I suspect it is the latter. This lie Satan speaks is so subtle. We are not earning points in the "good" column to reach heaven. We cannot simply remove points from the "bad" column through repentance. As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! The light of our spirit is darkened, the natural man takes control, and our thoughts are confused. This is why it is hard to return and repent, because we think and feel differently then we did before we committed the sin. After the sin we make excuses and try and justify what we have done. We find reasons to postpone repentance, often assuming we will do it later. We think we are strong when we are actually weak, and the lies go on and on. Now regarding repentance in the spirit world. From all I have read it appears that repentance in the spirit world is much more difficult than in this world. Some authorities have estimated ten times more difficult. Why? I believe it is because we will not have a body. A body gives us power over those spirits who do not have bodies including Satan and his hosts.

I would agree, at least in part, with your above statement. However, I believe there is another reason as well. It is the importance of the Book of Mormon. In the introduction to every Book of Mormon is printed these words: The keystone of our religion! And indeed it is. Our church rises or falls based on the truth of the Book of Mormon. Growing up in the church I must have had more lessons than I can count on my two hands about what a keystone is and does.Also, few long time members of this church do not know this statement from President Benson where he even chided members of the church for taking the Book of Mormon lightly. He says: In almost every instance where we talk about incorrect translation of the Bible it is compared to the Book of Mormon.

Skippy asked not to derail the discussion on this topic previously so I have begun a new thread. http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/42989-troops-returning-increased-unemployment.html#post628923

On a previous thread there was a discussion about our troops returning from Iraq. Here is the thread: http://www.lds.net/forums/current-events/42943-all-troops-coming-home-iraq-2.html A question arose that was not directly related, here is the general question: With troops returning will unemployment increase? My comment was: LittleWayvern posted this good comment: So what will happen to the economy?

What will happen to the unemployment rate? So long as the government reduces spending proportionately it will go down! Even if they don't it's still positive. Public money spent supporting the troops will now not be needed. Soldiers who once fought will now add useful capital to the economy. (This idea that there is a limited amount of work must go away.) Oh, there may be a very short time where the public sector needs to adjust to account for the influx to the labor market but other than this short term issue it is all positive. Bring them home!

A few months ago I read this article from National Geographic. I found it interesting... Population 7 Billion - Pictures, More From National Geographic magazine Two thoughts from it... Further on it says... The Lord has emphasized what I consider to be the problem and the solution and it is not to reduce the population. He says, "And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine. But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves." (D&C 104:15-17) Even the Lord says there is enough and to spare! The real question is can we do it in the Lord's way?

PC, Good point. Even Joseph Smith agreed that Christ would 'tread in the tracks of His Father" and as the Son took his kingdom the Father would be exalted. Hence it would seem that we will always worship the Father as distinctly above us.

sister_in_faith, I agree, we should care more about the environment than we do. I have left the temple feeling the same way before. The desert must continue to blossom as the rose and we need to be part of making that happen. Not because were scared but because we have a vision. President Kimball waxed rather poetic in a talk where he mentioned the environment, he said,

Traveler, On the face of it this idea seems useful. But I'm afraid in this case the devil is in the details. Let me give two areas where warning flags come to mind. - Every individual is expected to contribute: You go so far as to say that citizenship should be tied to contribution. What if a citizen doesn't contribute but claims he has? Does the government then need to police the contribution effort? This means there will need to be some sort of oversight committee and paperwork to ensure all citizens give service or taxes. Not only that, but I can see the government dictating locations where service can be given. Yikes! - For those who don't do community service they must be taxed: In essence you are saying that government should fund charity. Who should the government give these taxes to? Which organizations get the money? Regardless of who these organizations are, money from the government always comes with strings attached. They want to know where and how the money is being spent. That is why a deduction is so much better than a tax. Individuals are left to decide where and how the money is spent not the government. James Madison said, "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government" and I think he was right.