RMGuy

Crazy huh Vort, and another observation if I may be permitted. The harder I've worked at it, the better it has gotten....which makes me want to work harder at it....which makes it better.... A very interesting phenomenon. I'm not done with the research yet though...I've having too much fun with the experiment to conclude the study and report the ultimate results. -RM

I teach in Michigan, Division 1 research intensive university. I get what you are saying about the cost of education, but around the world it is far easier to get an education be that home schooled, elementary, secondary, or post secondary, or even self taught than at any other time in history. Access to information is more readily available and cheaper that at any period in history. So I'll stick by that. Even with the cost of higher education, a greater percentage of the US population and world population will enroll in higher education than ever before. Source please for your claim that LDS kids are more likely to pursue higher education than other demographics? -RM

Well sure, as long as you don't mind hiding out from Gasosaurus! I think even the bad (except those at the very extremes) is better. But that is just me. -RM

I loved Eowyn's response. Just some perspective. Our first year of marriage was hell. Years two through 14 were up and down, good and bad, but mostly positive. Years 15 and 16 was FREAKING AWESOME! I'll let you know how 17 goes when I get there. :-) -RM

Here's my take. I think sometimes we can get caught up in the reported bad news, and yet there is not a time in the history of the world that I would prefer to live in than this one. Just a few positives for you: 1. Your opportunity for education has never been greater 2. Availability of medical care and the quality of that care are better than ever before in the history of the world. 3. Generally if you look around you, you will find that people are good. That is true in the MorCor as well as throughout the United States, and if you have been blessed to travel, throughout the world I teach at a major university, and I have never (to my knowledge) had an LDS church member in one of my classes. Yes we have our share of MIP's and other issues on campus, but you know what. The students that I deal with are bright, engaged, and compassionate. They care about the world around them and step up repeatedly and consistently to assist. There are great and wonderful people in the world in and out of the church. There are wonderful protestants and Catholics. Terrific Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, and there are some fabulous atheists and agnostics that I am proud, nay, honored to call my friends. Yes our world has problems. Doctrine teaches us that this is for a purpose, but stop and ask yourself at what period of time would you rather live? What period of time in the history of the world do you think people were generally more good (however you choose to measure that). While your answer may be different, for me personally, I can think of no time in the history of the world where humanity has been more blessed, nor one in which society generally was as kind, compassionate, and caring as it is in today's world. Just another point of view...for what it is worth. -RM

50 years ago all you needed was a lathe and a lot of people could make a gun with basic machining skill set. Heck my 14 year old daughter is proficient enough with a mill and lathe to make one easily right now. This just brings it to the computer savy, the machinists of today.

I wonder how many showed up in garments? -RM

Modesty is so much more than what we wear or don't. -RM

Since when is education a bad thing? I was under the impression that the Glory of God is intelligence. If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed. - J. Reuben Clark, D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24. -RM

Good for both of you. Also, read the suggested book, it's great and from a female perspective. The activities are fun :-) -RM

Yes. You can always ask to be released. At the end of the day every calling is a volunteer position. -RM

Not sure where you are located, so my advice might be difficult. I never mix friendship and business Never mix family and business Never mix church and business. -RM

I think too it illustrates why it is important understand the lens through which we as individuals view events: Allow me to illustrate Viewed one way, an individual could be someone who stands up for righteousness, who sacrifice, suffer, and endure for that which they know to be true. They will even risk riches, position, wealth, and life for what they know to be right. The same individual, viewed another way could be an evil, and abominable individual who puts what they want before the needs of others. Someone would would go so far as to commit murder, in order to obtain material possessions. How can someone be viewed so differently? Well, doesn't it depend upon your point of view as to how you view the story of Nephi and Laban? Just a thought. -RM

There is a pretty similar thread going on at another site right now, but from the opposite side of the equation. The Lingo thread got me thinking. Sometimes we hear what we think the other person is saying, rather than what they really intend. To the OP, the post that I am referring to on another site is probably not your spouse. Yet there are some similarities. That individual talked about why if he can respect his wife's believes can she not respect his? He too has left the church, and he too has had a few drinks, sometimes around the kids? He wonders how splitting up would solve any of the problems that she has listed (ie he would still drink if they were divorce and the kids would still know). The interesting part is that he still loves his wife, still wants to stay married. I think sometimes we look at our spouses (I can be guilty of this too) and think if only they would change this or that instead of looking for the common ground. At the end of the day, only you know your situation, and we are all just strangers on a discussion board. I hope that in some small way maybe something you read above in either this post or some of the others is in some way beneficial. All the best -RM

I think that one of the best things perhaps about the movie, all kidding aside (and I don't believe this was the original intent of the authors or producers) is that we can all look at the same thing and yet see many different angles, and extract many different meanings. Perhaps, just perhaps the real lesson of Lingo is to be able to look at our own beliefs and insights with a critical eye, and attempt to view them through the eye of the other...only then can we say we truly understand. -RM

And all this time I was thinking it was about how women were property and you were supposed to buy them....silly me. -RM

Just addressed to Vort for two reasons: 1. Because while we disagree on many things, I know I will always get what he really thinks. 2. Because I know how important loyalty is to him, I felt he might have some unique insight that may be beneficial. He did, and I thank him for it. -RM

Again a very sincere thank you. You have given me a lot to think about, as I knew you would, AND it was very very helpful. As for the Fiero, someone on another forum has used two of your avatars in the past (the clown, and the androgynous individual so I thought there might have been a chance that it was you. Again, my friend, thank you. -RM

Vort, I have a question that I am curious as to how you would answer, and why. Of course the question is open to anyone, but I am really interested in Vort's response. I know from our past discussions that you have talked about the value that you place upon loyalty. That it is a very bright star in your personal constellation, and that is why I am so interested in your response. Were you to find your integrity (what you honestly believe or know to be true) to be in conflict with your loyalty (what the church or a leader was telling you to do/be true) how would you act...which value would you follow? I know that the "easy" answer, if there is one is to say that this type of a situation would never happen. I think it happens to all of us to a greater or lesser degree however, and I am interested not just in which one you would select, but perhaps more importantly, your thought process as you weighed through those decisions. and a very sincere thank you. PS Vort - does the word Fiero have any special significance for you? -RM

Great insight Leah, I can see what you are saying You definitely do get those posts here and with some support, but there is also very clearly the other side presented. Spend some time on STAY or NOM. They are more what I would consider reform or middle ground. Perhaps we both agree that there is a dividing line, just not on where that line is? -RM

Sounds pretty normal to me. -RM

Vort, That is awesome. I love learning about and attending other churches from time to time. Some of my favorites have been small country churches in the UK (CofE). For me, I usually think about how would I want a visitor to behave at our services. What is a respectful degree of participation and what am I personally comfortable with. For example, I don't participate in communion, but do kneel, sing, etc with the congregation. I usually wear a kippah out of respect if I attend a jewish service, but would not wear that Tallit as that is considered disrespectful. -RM

Now see THAT is a creative solution! -RM

Let's try it from this perspective. How do we think Christ would treat this sister? What if she refused to head his request, how would he respond? -RM

@EarlJibbs, No problem at all with asking her to stop again, but you have done that once or twice. So now what? -RM