Latter Days Guy
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Posts posted by Latter Days Guy
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saw this article when I did a google news search, its an interesting read. Do you think that it makes a fair point? That the Church is now a growing global entity but is still lead by white Americans, particularly Utah born? I kind of agree that a more culturally diverse leadership would be great, but then Heavenly Father calls the person he wants.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3029168-155/commentary-mormon-church-misses-chance-to
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I'm not planning on doing this, not any time soon, since I'm pregnant and it'll be a good year before anything like this is remotely doable. But for fun, has anyone just backpacked, like a nomad, throughout the states? I'm literally envisioning carrying nothing more than a backpack on your back, and that's it, and you travel around - setting up tent - and hiking it. The only travel you'd actually do is maybe a direct flight out of your current state and into another, then from there, trek it (maybe bike it). I'm not necessarily even talking about being outdoors all day long, but even city sightseeing, but everything you need is on your back.
So if you've done this, what was your journey? How did your day to day adventure go? Would you say it was enjoyable? Or, maybe not so much enjoyable but a worthwhile experience?
Sounds good, but wouldn't this be a little hard to do with a new baby to take care of?Just read your post again, but this time with my glasses on! Makes more sense now that I can read it properly!
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The 2002 proposal demanded that Israel, with its population of 8,000,000, accept four million Palestinians into its heartland.
I'll bet you Brits, with your population of 64 million, wouldn't accept thirty-two million immigrants into your borders--not even if they were (heaven forbid!) Americans. And frankly, if our respective cultures had been brought up to hate each other and, in that context, you guys were big enough schmucks to agree to let yourselves be colonized in such a way--well, we wouldn't stop at sending 32 million colonists. No one would.
Nope, not at all. They would return to the land that would become the Palestinian state, i.e. the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Hardly their heartland, infact not even their land at all! Though at the rate of expansion of illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank there soon won't be any viable land left for a Palestinian state.
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Your anti-Semitism is showing.
And to the OP - the correct spelling is Israel.
Really? How do you get that? Or are you saying that because I don't agree with the policies of the Israeli government with regards to its handling of the peace process, the treatment of its non-Jewish residents, its blatant dis-regard for UN resolutions and international law, that that makes me ant-Semitic? Really? Clutching at straws there! Bring out the anti-Semitic card!
Lets get some facts straight here, I 100% agree that Israel has a right to exist, I 100% support that right for the Jewish people to have a place to call their home. I agree that they have a right to self defense and to respond in a proportional way towards those who attack them. But I also support those same rights for the Palestinians, that they also have the right to self determination, to have a place that they can call home, to live within the boundaries of their own land.
Does that make me anti-Semitic?
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Kids today would not even know what that rectangular object is that he's grasping.
There are so many things like that, that kids today wouldn't have a clue about! Oh the joys of getting old!
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I am shocked and appalled, TFP. Shocked and appalled.
Judas Priest, one of my favourite metal bands!
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I had to LOL at the "if you no longer believe in God (or the church's doctrine) its time to leave! As our local Church of England Vicar, who is also a member of the Church of England's General Synod, has a very liberal view on God, Jesus and the bible! So far as to say its "all some nice stories to make you feel better and help you get through life kinda views"!!
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The people who lived in that area were under Turkey. Turkey disclaimed them. The British took over and by right of conquest in WWI divied up the land to make several nations. Israel just happened to be one of those that the British made 2 conflicting treaties over - hence the start of the conflict. But, all people living in that land before the land became Israel are now Israelis.
Nope they were under to control of the Ottomans, Turkey wasn't founded as a nation until 1922. Britain didn't take over by right of conquest but by treaty via the League of Nations, they along with France carved up the middle east to form vassal states. As there was no Israel how could the British make a treaty with Israel? There was the Balfour declaration and Britain did make treaties with the indigenous Arabs to give them autonomy after the defeat of the Ottomans. Apart from the ones who left to avoid the conflict and who now reside in refugee camps around the middle east.
I'm just now noticing you respond to posts within the quoted post. I might be missing a lot of your answers.
Israel is not the only nuclear power in the region. France, Pakistan, and India are also considered "in that region".
Pakistan and India are in Asia, which the middle east is a region of, so yes Israel is the military super power of the middle east region. I also guess that geography isn't your strong point as France is in Europe not the middle east or even Asia!
Your view of who is squirming is quite one-sided. I can give you the point by point history but it's not going to matter because, like most people who have their minds already decided on the matter, it's just going to fall on deaf ears.
As could I but then it would fall on your deaf ears also.
And saying that Israel has nothing to fear is very naïve. Israel is so tiny and so controlled by the UN that if Iran ever launches a nuke against them they're going to be wiped out even if they manage to launch something to retaliate. What's the point of a nuke if your country is dead? So, the only way they can use their nukes is if they strike first - which they can't - because then the US, UK, France, Russia etc.. are going to retaliate and squash them. They can't even admit publicly that they have a nuke. All they can really do is go to the US Congress and threaten to do first strike. The Israeli's are prepared to go to war as evidenced by their military not only whipping back any invasion in the 50's and 60's but also being able to gain enough ground that another invasion is least likely to follow. But, the Israeli's have been respecting the UN mandates as far as it can without losing its sovereignty because they know they exist under the benevolence of the super powers.
Israel isn't controlled by the UN, the UN has next to no power over Israel as it has the veto of the US in its back pocket. And as Iran doesn't have any nukes then that fantasy isn't going to happen either! As for Israel respecting the UN mandates, poppycock! If they respected them then they would actually abide by them instead of ignoring them as they have done for over 60 years!
Greater Israel... seriously? Who are you talking to? This is like talking to an anti-Mormon...
The aims of the Zionist movement from its inception in the late 18th century was for the establishment of a Jewish nation in the middle east within the borders of what they call greater Israel, which is the land that the biblical nation of Israel occupied at the height of power. Its not rocket science!
Israel's conquests are pretty easy to follow. They are going after a defensible border. Something they can hold sovereignty over. Many negotiations failed because of the inability of the UN to negotiate a line that Israel can successfully defend that the Palestinians will agree to. Israel is squirming for a reason. What's the point of a border if you can't defend it? The Palestinians, on the other hand, don't even bother showing up to negotiations. In several instances, it was pretty clear that they don't want a resolution to the conflict. Many statesmen believe this is by design - the Muslim nations are using Palestine as a whipping stick against Israel.
But then Israel won't define its borders so the point is mute. And as for the Palestinians not showing up, in 2002 the Arab League along with the US, Britain and other western nations attended a peace conference where the Arab League presented their proposed peace plan for the region. Israel refused to attend, they also told the Palestinian Authorities that if they attended they would not be allowed to re-enter Palestinian Authority controlled land, effectively saying they would be blocked from returning home. Time after time Israel refuses to attend, often to the consternation of the US who are left with egg on their face when Israel fail to show again!
A current political candidate which we can't name on lds.net has this to say about borders: A nation without borders is not a nation. Israel believes this. Israel will not agree to a border it can't defend against invasion.
So going by what this so called person states, that means Israel isn't a nation as it refuses to define its borders.
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This is not true at least for Filipino Offshore Workers who changed citizenship who are mostly Roman Catholics. They're quite a thriving bunch over there and Philippine-Israeli relations are quite good.
Travel between West Bank and Gaza are, of course, difficult. West Bank and Gaza are not officially Israel. It is an Israeli military occupied territory and under the provisions of the Geneva Convention, Israel is prohibited from transferring population from Israel to these disputed territories. Therefore, travelling to the West Bank and Gaza have to go through the United Nations. If you are an Israeli citizen, you can go anywhere in the world and come back to Israel. If you're not an Israeli citizen, you have to apply for re-entry into Israel. This is the exact same thing as a non-citizen traveling in and out of the United States. Unless you crawl under the border in Mexico, it is quite difficult and lengthy process to gain entry or re-entry into the US and a lot more applicants are denied entry than there are accepted entries. If it was that easy to gain entry or re-entry into the US, you'll be overrun by Filipinos.
The harsh reality is - Jews were killed by the millions in WWII and until today neighboring nations are still vowing to kill all Jews. It is not difficult to understand why Jews default to the defensive position when it comes to non-Jews.
Cheap labour is cheap labour. There was a thriving africa community until the population got a bit too large for Israelis to stomach, now they are rounded up and deported.
So if the Israelis aren't allowed to transfer population from Israel to the occupied territory why is there over 400,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank? Travel from the West Bank to Gaza has nothing to do with the UN either, free movement of people was one of the agreed terms of the Oslo accords from over 20 years ago. The problem is Israel never honoured their commitments in the Oslo accords.
Yes they were killed by the millions but that doesn't mean that Israel gets a blank slate to do what ever it wants. As for Israels neighbors they have offered a comprehensive peace deal since 2002, which of course Israel rejects. The basics of that deal state the following:
(a) Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon; (b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. © Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.
In return the Arab states will do the following: (a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region; (b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace.[2]
The deal was and is still on the table, but Israel doesn't want to touch it as normalized relations with its neighbors isn't good for the cash cow that comes from playing the victim.
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Israel's legitimate annexation of land cannot be compared to Germany because Germany has a firm, non-negotiated, fully defensible border recognized by all nations and peoples. Anytime Germany takes land outside of this border such as Austria and Poland is a clear usurpation of someone else's sovereign land.
Yes it can and I just did. Israel had firm borders which it was given by the Partition of Palestine by the UN. The land outside that border was the land given to the Palestinians.
Israel, on the other hand, was given a border by the British, they claimed it, tried to defend it, but the British gave somebody else dibs on that same land, so now it became an argument on who owns what. The British threw up its hands because they know they made a mess of things and lobbed the entire matter to the UN. But until TODAY, the UN cannot agree on where that border is. The line keeps on moving so Israel decided way back in the 50's to claim their borders by conquest to finally end the racket... the reason they had to annex that land is because the last border UN drew (which did not completely get agreed on) was not defensible. The annexed land, therefore, provides a barrier from which Israel can defend its borders.
No, the British didn't give them a border, that as I've said above was decided by the UN. The UN is quite clear on what is and is not Israels borders, it is in fact Israel that will not finalize its borders as this would mean they couldn't get away with its land grab policy any more. The occupied land is illegally held under International law, that Israel flouts this shows how much of a morally corrupt nation it actually is.
It is legitimate because nobody has legitimate claims to that land. Nobody. The Palestinians do not. The Israelis do not. The British do not. The UN do not. So the land is up for grabs and the most effective way to claim it when negotiations fail time and time again is to conquer it before somebody else conquers your entire nation. Remember, Israel is one little nation in the middle of superpowers able and willing to wipe them off the face of the planet.
Nobody other than the people who were actually living on the land at the time maybe or do they not count? Israel is the local superpower, they have nothing to fear from their Arab neighbors seeing as they are the only nuclear power in the region. They have ample opportunity to negotiate for peace but squirm their way out at each and every opportunity. The only thing they are truly interested in is the establishment of the greater Israel.
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Well, I didn't want to threadjack; but we've got the guests and the band, so maybe we should just have the party:
LDG, do you also hold that Cuban exiles in Miami, Vietnamese refugees in San Francisco, and ethnic Chinese in Taiwan have legitimate claims over the territories they were forced to abandon fifty years ago?
If not, what makes the Palestinians any different?
Yes.
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I would if a church leader has addressed these issues. Clearly interesting times are ahead.
Would a church leader contradict two witnesses sent from God and prophesied of in scripture?
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Just as a clarification. Are you saying that the two witnesses that will preach are the same two witnesses that will preach for 3 1/2 years, be killed, lie in the streets for 3 days and be resurrected? I would like references where it is said that it is Enoch and Elijah that will do this.
Depends, I'm talking only about the two witnesses in Revelation 11. As for them being Enoch and Elijah, this has always been the traditional view held by most Christians as to who the two witness are. Do a little google fu, its easy to find!
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But as Mormon we are required to obey the law of the land. Surely we would not break the law?
Are Enoch and Elijah Mormon? Are the witnesses to obey the law of the land or do what God has instructed them to do?
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Ugh. This is highly exaggerated.
You need to make a distinction between Jew as a religion (Judaism) versus Jew as a culture (blood). Israel is a Jewish State. As in Jew by culture. Not necessarily Religion. Just like Arabs - also a culture, not a Religion. Jewish State means - any Jew anywhere in the world is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion. It doesn't mean that if you are non-Jew you can't be a citizen of Israel.
Yes both secular and religious jews have under Israeli law the right of return to Israel. This is also extended to those who convert to Judaism. But that right of return is not extended to Jews who have converted to another religion. If a citizen of Israel who lives in Israel converts then that is another matter.
The State holds freedom of religion laws in the same manner as the US and most of the west. Israel is a result of a Zionist migration, therefore, the state is mostly Jews (both in culture and religion). There are non-Jews - many Arabs and some Slavs and other cultures in the region due to indigenous residents prior to the 1948 treaties as well as inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews and a few immigrants. As a Zionist state, any Jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship in Israel if they so choose. Citizenship in Israel requires that they give up citizenship anywhere else. In additional to that, all Palestinians - Arab, Jew, or otherwise, who resided in Israel in 1948 received Israeli citizenship. Also, spouses and children of Israeli citizens also qualify for citizenship regardless of culture. Anybody non-Jew born in Israel also gets citizenship after 5 years of residence. And lastly, any non-Jew who wants to immigrate to Israel can apply for citizenship.
Very few Palestinians have Israeli citizenship, the vast majority are classed as non-citizen indigenous people. Any non jew can apply, they won't get it though. I've know several people who wanted to move to Israel, even someone who was married to a jew (though secular) who was refused citizenship because they were not Jewish.
That said - majority of the Christians in Israel are not Jews - they are Arabs. And just like there is Westboro Baptist Church Christians in the US, there is also the similar ultra-misguided-orthodox Jews in Israel. They have been responsible for the attack on the Church of the Multiplication among other things. In addition, there are Muslims in Israel who are sympathetic to the jihadist movement that are attacking Christians. All of these happenings are considered criminal and are subject to action by the Israeli government.
I would be surprised if any of the Christians in Israel were Jewish being as they are Christian! From what I've read and been told by people who visit Israel often, its quite definitely the orthodox Jews who are attacking Christians with very little problems between the arab Christians and Muslims. They have to hide there activities as they go to Israel to share the gospel but know that if they said that when applying for visas etc they would be denied entry.
Overall, Israel is the only place in the entire Middle East where Christians are thriving. Filipino Overseas Workers in the Middle East (mostly Roman Catholics) run to Israel for safe haven when they experience persecution. Because of this, a good number of Filipinos are now Israeli citizens which led to the rise of Catholic Churches in Tel Aviv.
From what I've been told by Christians who visit regulary, they say the opposite. That the church is under great persecution with little or no action taken against those who cause trouble for churches or visiting Christians.
As far as proselyting goes, it is legal to proselyte in Israel but it is difficult because of the 80% Jewish (religion) majority. This majority is hard to penetrate because of their influence in politics. Jews (religion) fear for their brethren just as much as we LDS do. Therefore, they put up protections of their membership so they will not convert. This is natural. Because of this, even though it is legal in Israel to proselyte, there is a sense of resistance within the government as majority of government are Jews (religion) and laws and policies have Jewish leanings.
So much for the religious freedom you mentioned previously.
This is the same in the Philippines. The Philippines is 80% Christian - a large majority of which is Roman Catholic. LDS proselyting is ok because LDS in the Philippines is considered Christian. But Muslim proselyting is very very difficult. A lot of discriminating policies are in place against it even if proselyting is legal in the Philippines. Also, laws like divorce have no prayer of passing in Philippine government as a vast majority of Filipinos are Roman Catholics who believe divorce is against Christ's laws even if other Christian sects hold no such belief. That's just the nature of democracy.
Those non-Jews living in Israel and even in the occupied territories are treated as 2nd class citizens, they have difficulties with travel within the country, and if they should want to leave to travel between different regions, say the West Bank and Gaza it can take a long time to get the necessary travel documentation to do so. If you want to actually leave the country, often they will find that they are not allowed back in. The harsh reality is, its not good to be a non-jew in Israel.
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Just did a search and this was at the top of the list.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/rel-christians.html
And this from the National Prayer Network:
http://www.truthtellers.org/hate%20crimes/proselyte.html
An interesting article in USA Today:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-06-22-israel-missionaries_N.htm
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I disagree. Nothing will stop the work of the Lord from moving forward in its own time.
I agree, but not because Israel will suddenly change its policy of being a Jewish state but rather by the mass conversion of Jews to Christ in the last days. From my reading of revelations 11 they will try anything to stop the two witnesses preach the Gospel but will fail, until God allows them to be killed. Their resurrection will open the floodgates of Jewish conversion to the Church.
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To add to that, the refugees were rejected by all other Arab states because they are better used as refugees and "homeless".
Or maybe because they had perfectly good homes in Palestine which they could have returned to... Oh wait they couldn't because the Israeli's stole their land and gave it to European immigrants!
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Sorry PC if this is becoming a thread hijack.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/legitimacy-of-israels-claim-on-land-won-in-defensive-wars/
The palestinian refugee problem is from the palestinians voluntarily leaving their homes to attack Israel thinking they'd win and rid themselves of the Jews. When they lost they weren't allowed to return to their homes creating a "refugee" problem.
The lands shown in your video to have been taken from the palestinians are legitimate annexations from winning a defensive war.
No, the Palestinians didn't leave their homes to attack Israel, the majority left to escape the conflict. Or are you saying they should have just stayed and been slaughtered? Have we suddenly gone back to the middle ages? Legitimate annexation of land? In that case surely Hitler had every right to march into the Rhineland, annex Austria, and invade Poland, the Netherlands, France and keep them as they were just annexing territory!
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This seems to suggest a mass conversion of Jews which presumably would require a decade or so of work. Possibly teaching in Jerusalem which is currently forbidden. Which suggests that we have some time before the 2nd coming.
Which is why I mentioned Revelations previously, the two witnesses who are supposed to be Enoch and Elijah. I don't believe that they will be asking for permission to preach, and if the scripture passage is anything to go by they will be unable to stop them until God allows it, and then only for a few days as they are resurrected!
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Personally I wouldn't hold onto a timeframe. Right now the church has an agreement that there won't be proselytizing in Israel. But I think when that changes, things will move very very quickly.
It will never change, Israel's policy is for a Jewish state, with only Jews as citizens. Christians are treated almost as bad as Muslims in Israel which really makes me wonder why there is such support from mainly US churches for the state of Israel.
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Aren't the two witnesses in Revelations 11 sent to convert the Jews to faith in Christ?
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Hmmmmm - where do you think the "sons of Levi" will make an offering to the L-rd in righteousness? (D&C 13) Also what did Orson Hyde dedicate the land of Jerusalem for? The gathering of the Later-day Saints? Also how will Jesus manifest himself to the Jews in Jerusalem (his second coming) if they do not gather there? One last point - If you look up abomination of desolation in the LDS bible dictionary - how can that happen as prophesied for the last days if the Jews have not gathered in Jerusalem?
One thing perhaps missing in the discussion is the restoration of Jerusalem - does that have anything to do with the translation of Salem during the time of Melchizedek? and its return as prophesied by Enoch?
Clearly there is still a role for the Jews in Gods future plans, but they are no longer the vehicle in which the Lord has placed his Priesthood, that now resides in the Church of Christ. I don't believe God turns his back on those who were once the chosen people of the OT, but its through the new covenant that salvation is found now, not the old.
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For interests sake I thought this video might help the discussion in some ways. Not because it addresses anything to do with the lds view of Israel, but because it so clearly articulates the problems over there.
Not really, it paints the Israelis as the innocent victims, which clearly they are not.
Diversity?
in General Discussion
Posted
Some interesting views being shared and I can see both sides of the argument. Though I do believe that the church as a global entity should reflect the membership, and it would be nice to see some more non-native Americans in higher leadership positions. At the end of the day it is God who calls.
Someone mentioned that people from first world countries are more able to meet the needs of the church because their passports are accepted in more countries, bit of a poor choice for an example, I don't see RC bishops and archbishops being denied entry to other countries just because they are from a poor nation. Nor do I put limits on Heavenly Father being able to open doors to for someone if he deems to call someone from a poorer nation either.