tesuji

I think in Zion "there are no poor among them" because, yes, everyone has all they need. Because everyone is looking out for their neighbor. It never says they are exactly equal in wealth, but I personally believe that no one will care about who is more wealthy, because their hearts will not be set on riches. People in the United Order, as I understand it, give all their surplus to the bishop, and they get back whatever they need for their stewardship - undoubtedly, some will need more than others. But it won't matter, because everyone will have what they need. Zion, after it gets really going, is supposed to be a very prosperous economy - that's what they said in seminary at least, I remember. However, there is plenty in the scriptures warning against being wealthy. Not that being rich is the same as being wicked. Having money is not evil in itself, but the problem comes when you set your heart on it, and don't use it to build up the kingdom of God. To properly address the topic of wealth in LDS doctrine, you would want to write a carefully researched long talk about it. Probably others have already done this. But let me look around for some relevant scriptures - give me a minute here, I'll be back...

Interesting question. You made me look it up. I recommend reading the whole chapter from Gospel Principles, to understand how spirit prison differs from paradise. See also the Encycl. of Mormonism, http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Spirit_Prison I too understand this to be a mental state. Although there is apparently some kind of physical separation too. I wonder if the separation might be at least partly self-imposed - maybe spirits go where they are comfortable, to be with people at their same level. For example, the members of a heavy metal rock band probably would not choose to hang out with former prophets...?

Hi folks, just a parting comment from me here. I think there was some misunderstanding about my OP. My point was that there is great inequality in our world, and unfortunately it even appears to be growing in the US. This inequality is contrary to what the gospel teaches us. I presented the contrasting scenarios that the scriptures give us, that show us that a better way is possible. My intent was to invite people to ponder the scriptural example. So, more like how you would discuss the question of inequality in Sunday School, rather than in a Trump vs. Clinton debate. I think the former approach is more likely to yield understanding. My intent was to invite people to ponder the scriptural example, and to think beyond a mere worldly partisan mentality, and to consider what the gospel teaches us on this topic, whatever our various political affiliations might be. I think some of you took my post as an invitation to argue politics, even as a liberal throwing down the gauntlet to the mostly conservative members of the forum. I think political debates are fruitless, because they usually are mostly heat and not much light, so to speak. Because it was not my intent to engage in political debate, I believe some of you felt like I was being evasive. I, on the other hand, felt personally attacked and felt like I was being treated uncivilly, and therefore I mostly withdrew from the thread. Politics is one of those topics where people's views are mostly already set, and that people often feel strongly about. Among LDS members in particular, it is likely to generate contention and ill-feelings, which drives away the all-important influence of the Holy Spirit, and is moving us in the opposite direction of the "one in heart and one mind" Zion we are all supposed to be working for. I may be partly off in my assessment, because I haven't read much here past page 2. I won't be reading further here after this post, and I'm going to try to stay in non-political threads in the future on this website.

Feels like you're trolling here... But this does raise a valid question. When should we as Mormons apply the teaching regarding authority figures that was given in the OP, to "obey their counsel, and refrain from criticizing them"? The answer is when the leader is called by priesthood authority in the church. Faith is the first principle of our church. Specifically, faith in Jesus Christ. I think part of that is having faith that Christ is leading his church, and faith (trust) in the leaders who get called.

I always say, "Congratulations and condolences" to people who are called to church leadership postions “In the work of the Lord, we don’t seek positions, nor should we refuse the opportunity to serve when called.” - Elder Robert L. Simpson

How far we are from this. This thread proves it to me.

I have no idea what you're talking about

You could start with the book Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley. That's all his view, but I think he's got some good points. http://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/approaching-zion/

Satan is The Accuser; Christ is The Advocate. I don't want to be an accuser, and tell specifics of my opinion, just say that I think we have a ways to go. And that Zion is about more than economic preparation. So I would rather be like an advocate and instead encourage people. To continue preparing. Always including myself of course. Sorry if it's nagging you. What's important is not my opinion, but how each of us answer that question ourselves. Are we ready to live in Zion?

I wasn't trying to make points, just trying to analyze the examples. I'm not sure what lessons we should take from them, but was trying to at least see if we could describe what they had in common.

Carborendum, thanks for your additions to my lists and to my thoughts. (It won't let me insert your quote here, for some reason). Nephites were a subset because the wicked had all been killed, as far as we know. (or maybe a smiley is insensitive here...?) Yes, I was referring to Jesus as the strong leader. It appears he inspired the members enough and/or maybe even set up the system that allowed it to happen. #5 Brigham Young's failed experiment - Oh, yeah, I forgot that one. Orderville, UT and all that. It failed because of selfishness, I would guess? I'm not so sure many LDS members don't have a ways to go, as far as helping poor people. But if I point my finger here, four will be pointing back at me, as the saying goes... Thanks for that link to the article. I will read it.

As I have said, my main intent with this thread was to raise the question, and encourage people to think about what the scriptures mean. This is not part of some liberal gotcha agenda - "see, the scriptures say you Republicans are all wrong." No. (I'm not Republican or Democrat, anyway.) It's more important that you all ponder these scriptures than listen to what one person (me) thinks them. But here are my thoughts, since at least one of you has asked for them: There are four examples in the scriptures I can think of that show us a similar situation, where there were no poor: - The early Christian church under Paul after Jesus left - 4 Nephi after Jesus left - The city of Enoch in the Book of Moses - The failed experiment with the United Order under Joseph Smith From these four, here is what I see that they each have in common: It was a subset of the population, a group of uncommonly devout people. It came about in association with a strong, inspired priesthood leader. It was voluntary. It did happen - it was not a fantasy utopia. It did not last. I expect there may have been more of these throughout history that we don't know about. I don't know if we can assume these 4 represent the only possible answers or situations that have existed; but they are the ones we know about. So if you say, "we should be more like these people," then there are two spheres to consider: 1. Individual actions 2. An organized system Right now, I think our concern is the individual sphere. What should my heart be, and how should I individually act? The organized system, however - I don't think we as LDS members can do much yet, except study what Zion will be. We can study what we know about Zion, the teachings of King Benjamin, study what the past United Order was like (assuming Zion will be like that - will it?). The scriptures say a lot about money and poor people and how we should think about these things. I personally believe Zion will not be "new wine in old bottles" - by which I mean, it will not be based on Telestial, worldly ideas or -isms such as capitalism, socialism, etc. It will be a brand new system. New to us anyway, who have never lived like this. This system must be established by God, by revelation to church leaders. The best we could hope do until them is achieve some kind of synthesis of the best elements of all the worldly -isms; but I believe that would fall short. [added] More in the individual sphere-- We can also learn about the law of consecration, which LDS temple goers have all agreed to, if I understand correctly. And we can contribute by way of offerings through the church.

My purpose in starting this thread is to get people thinking about these scriptures, which I think show us the ideal that we should be working for. We are supposed to be preparing for Zion. I'm not here to propose specific paths or solutions or public policies.

Who is talking about socialism here in this thread?

OK, I'll respond soon then. I was trying to present what I think is the general answer - which is what the scriptures tell us. I have plenty of ideas, but I think arguing politics with people is usually fruitless. And just causes disharmony and bad feelings among church members. So I try to stay "above the fray" in political discussions. Not because I think I'm above anyone else, but because I think the answers are found in the gospel, beyond worldly political ideologies - they all have major problems, and all harp on some things and ignore other equally valid concerns.

OK, I've made my points here, for those who want to read them. I could say more and debate and make counter points and offer counter statistics, etc., but I feel like arguing is fruitless.

Neuro, I think you are assuming a lot about me. My point is that there is great inequality. And this is not how the gospel teaches us things should be. I do not believe that personal prosperity is a simply a function of hard work. It is more complicated. I do think there are many poor people in this country who are working hard, and are still poor. Many other people are poor because of illness. The church teaches hard work, self sufficiency, and provident living. Obviously, work matters. However, I don't think I've ever seen the church or Jesus in the Bible teach that poor people should be ignored or despised because their condition is something they brought upon themselves. The teaching is the opposite - we should do all we can for them.

Aaahhh, walls of text. I'll try to study what you all have replied soon today. My main point is that we should think about the principles, ideals, and solutions that the scriptures teach. I'm not advocating any political solution, and I think the gospel is the answer to these problems, not partisan ideologies.

Thanks for your reply. I don't have all the answers but I'm pretty sure none of the political parties do either. So I think we need to think beyond worldly ideology and find a higher way. I think we must confront these scriptures and ponder them.

I also don't agree with your statement that all people are poor because of poor choices or laziness or whatever. I think if you are born with advantages - good parents, good schools, prosperous relatives - it's easier to become prosperous yourself. If I had not been born into a middle class family with a stable family life and parents who taught me, and helped me, to go to college, would I have turned out differently? Probably. What if I had been raised by a single mom who had not gone to college herself, and had been abandoned by her husband. And works 2 or 3 jobs to keep food on the table. And can't afford to live in an area with good schools. And had a non-white skin color and was subject to prejudice in our culture? My life would almost certainly have turned out differently.

Thanks for your reply. I think this is a topic worth discussing, if we're going to talk about politics as LDS members in this forum. I've told you I'm not socialist. What is your reaction to the scriptures I posted? To me, these verses are talking about the ideal. How closely can we approach that right now? I don't know. I think there is plenty of evidence that inequality has been growing. I'll try to find some other sources that you might find more believable.

The video referred to in the article (sorry for the double post of this link)

The video referred to in the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think - Scientific American http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_MB_EG Interesting article. I think most people are not aware of how much inequality has grown. This is the opposite of what the gospel teaches, in my opinion. The answer in my opinion is not something like socialism. We have the answer in 4 Nephi and in the example of the early church in Acts.

Terryl Givens has some good discussions about what is doctrine in his book Wrestling the Angel. Unfortunately my copy is in storage. But I can see he has an entry in his index "doctrines, fluidity of" which gives you an idea of how he views LDS doctrine - as fairly fluid, if I recall correctly, although the "core doctrines" are not so fluid. https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928/