The Folk Prophet

You would think...but according to the world...................

Sorry anatess...I missed your reply somehow. But Dravin covered it here. The only thing we know is that Satan planned to remove our agency. Force is one possibility. Removal of accountability is another, as agency requires both choice and accountability.

No. The heartburn is that it is an established Catholic prayer. We also don't use the cross in our worship for similar reasons. There's nothing specifically wrong with the cross. But there are specific reasons we do not utilize it.

You keep harping on this, but you're missing the point. It already IS a prayer to Mary as per Catholicism. Therefore, we do not include it. It's not that complicated.

You may not, but apparently someone else did. Sex is, decidedly, NOT the only reason to be married other than children. Even children is not the reason. It is a reason. It is a good reason. But even those (like me) who have not been blessed with children are still meant to be married, because it is a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom. As for your question, my views on sex in marriage is that the corrupted world has done it's best to turn marriages into a self-centered stomping ground for wickedness, angst, antagonism, lust, and self-fulfillment. None of which are supposed to be, in any degree, part of marriage. And therefore, until one remove these things from marriage entirely, then it's fairly safe to say that failure is a possibility, and that failure that stems from wickedness will bring judgement upon us. Apply that thinking how you like to the question at hand.

Maybe you should take a look at the translation of Ave Maria...maybe google it a bit...wikipedia even...and then maybe you'll understand how it's decidedly different.

I didn't say everything will go away (in this life). I said we should try. Always. We should never give up, and never accept that we are incapable of change. We are. You like to pulling cryptic meaning out of quotes and scriptures that have no bearing on the point. We are, indeed, capable of growth and change, and none of your quotes are saying otherwise in the least degree. I do not see wherein you're debating against the point I'm trying to make, which is, once again, that we should try and overcome the natural man. We should try and change. We should try and become like Christ in every way. It seems to me that you're, rather, insisting that we embrace our weaknesses because we'll never be perfect. Is that what you're point is? If not, then what is your point?

Well, yeah. It's a Catholic prayer to the virgin Mary.

What was it MoE accused me of the other day? Something about the ranks of Mormon paranoia?

The cause of divorce is irrelevant to whether higher divorce rates is good or bad. It's bad. The cause enhances the bad. There shouldn't be abusive relationships. Sure, divorce is the lesser of two bads in that case. Definitely. But either way...higher divorce rates is entirely valid as an indicator of things worsening in society. Um...because of all that stuff the church teaches about why.

My guess is the bitter part comes from the poor track record with relationships. :)

Technically, I suppose, monarchical and any other governmental theory are not mutually exclusive.

Incidentally, that's King Benjamin's description. Bednar was quoting him. And I'm quite familiar, thank you very much.

If an inclination is evil then it is evil. Yes. Stop applying that thinking to people. Having evil inclinations (something we all do) does not define us as good or evil. Were we to do so, then yes, all of us are evil. EVERYONE. All but Christ. But that is not the point here. It's not about labeling ourselves as good or evil, and frankly that response misses the point. Yes. Overcoming the natural "evil" man is what it's about. So yes, it is evil. The natural man = evil -- hence: enemy to God. No, we won't, and can't overcome all natural tendencies in this life. And I'm not saying will will or can. But that is also missing the point. The point is that we should try to, and giving up and just saying "forget it! I can't help it" is decidedly contrary to putting off the natural man. Do you honestly believe that someone who consistently puts of natural, evil tendencies won't change over time? You believe that the inclinations remain, exactly the same, exactly as strong, no matter how much we put them off and yield to the enticings of the Spirit? I do not believe that. Practice makes perfect. Practice not being angry, and over time, you stop being angry. Add the Atonement and the literal changing effect it can have on our lives and character and the recipe is complete. Change is possible. Hunger is a poor example. Hunger is not evil...even when fasting. Fatigue is also not evil. Anger, lust, greed, etc...different story.

I do not ramble. And I'm always thoughtful. But I challenge you to a speak-off the next time we're both speaking in the same meeting - you with your preparation and me with my off-the-cuff. Thanks for the reproof. Now where's my increase of love?!

I guess we can just throw D&C 131 out the window then.

Not necessarily. Satan's plan was to save everyone. The specifics of how he was going to do that are not recorded.

Hmm. The family unit seems more like a monarchy to me.

Particularly from members like me who speak off the cuff and can't remember what they said five minutes later. "I said what?!"

https://www.lds.org/manual/introduction-to-family-history-student-manual/chapter-9?lang=eng ^ Here's where I pulled it from (Note: it's from (The Promise of Discipleship [2001], 119, 122).)

Ah...man. I should have cited it. Now I have to go find it again. *sigh* I'll take a look.

Traveler, I'd say your list is only the start of a much, much longer list. :)

Right-winged principles tend to go more hand in hand with LDS on moral issues (like abortion and homosexuality), and even left-leaning Mormons tend to the more conservative views in these issues (though even that, not exclusively). Healthcare issues you'll see Mormon point-of-views all over the map on though. For me it tends to be a practicality issue. It's nice to say we'll control these things with government. Practically, it just doesn't seem to work out, all-in-all.

Well, better...yes. But equating the existence of electricity and medicine to less evil is incongruent.

I did? Do you mean the videos I posted. Because they were meant as a matter of interest, not as evidence. I could care less for evidence one way or another. What I'm interested in is doctrine. Ah...secular literature. Yes...that is what I've missing. My faith has been askew. (I know...snarky reply...sorry...) Um...I challenge you...seriously...to find one quote anywhere from the church that says that sexual orientation does not (or cannot) change. That's a real doosey of an interpretation of the Church's position. But that's all it is. There is nothing of that sort in what the church has said anywhere. One could search far and wide to find a church teaching that states, implies, or otherwise embraces the idea of -- "Don't bother to change. You can't change. You are who you are." -- and it will never be found. How can gospel principles surrounding a mighty change of heart, change of character, becoming like Christ, and a literal myriad of quotes from General authorities that this is a gospel of change, all be discarded as "not applicable" to this particular aspect of humanity? Personally, it strikes me that the entire, "not a sin if you don't act on it," approach is a bandaid being applied to a worldly philosophy that is too corrupted to accept deeper truths. It is, to my mind, milk before meat. Because the meat is there. The scriptures and sermons are replete with it. And it makes no sense whatsoever that we should simply discard one of the the core teachings of the Atonement -- that we can experience change through repentance -- based on a simple statement from mormonsandgays that does not say what you and others seem to be reading into it. Milk: An eye for an eye. Meat: Turn the other cheek. Milk: No adultery. Meat: Don't even look to lust. Milk: Don't act on homosexual feelings. Meat: Through the Atonement we can actually change.