The Folk Prophet

Yes. But the people you speak of who think he's stupid are, I'm supposing, not stutterers.

His way of speaking doesn't help. Slow and with lots of "um...."s thrown in, etc.

So you did. When I said I don't care apparently I really meant it. I hadn't, clearly, read your post. Ah well. The embarrassments never end.

Multiple sources say the number of the beast was possibly 616. I don't care. But I'm just sayin'.

You claimed to have been a 30+ year member and yet seem to have a very tenuous grasp of some pretty basic doctrines. Maybe someone else will explain this to you in detail...but it wearies me and I think I'm done. Best of luck.

I'm not touchy. If you're going to site examples to make a point research them first or know what you're talking about. It was war time. They First Presidency couldn't review the matter at the time. It's a non issue and a non point. And anyhow, amen to the priesthood of any man who exercises unrighteous dominion in that way. If some Stake President excommunicates me unjustly I'll just keep attending, keep serving, etc., etc. I'll be in just fine standing before God. If I abandon the church and my covenants....not so much. Can you clarify something for me. Why on earth would the bishop need to call the cops on your wife? You keep claiming that the bishop had to continually threaten your wife....why was your wife continually engaged in doing what she was asked not to do? I certainly understand not wanting to send my kid to a class where they might be teaching false doctrine...but I wouldn't insist (illegally) that I had a right to be where I was asked by those in authority not to be. I would just not have my daughter attend that class. Frankly, I'd have her come to the adult class with me. And if they asked her to not do that, I'd have her not attend the second hour at all before I'd force it the point of threats to call the police and the like. Seems like things escalated in ways they didn't need to. If I don't like what the leaders are doing, I'd quietly withdraw in protest and talk to the bishop on the side. I have no right to forcibly go where I've been asked to no go. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

If you were the tare you'd be growing within the wheat trying to strangle it. I'm pretty sure the point was that there are people teaching homosex as not wrong within the membership who are the tares. You only get to be a tare if you join with the saints again and try to corrupt from within.

That is not the whole story. And you should darned well know it. Are you being intentionally disingenuous or are you unaware? The First Presidency, just as I JUST FINISHED SAYING reversed it upon review. Which is exactly what would happen for anyone excommunicated in like-wise manner. If you want to be taken seriously get real.

For what? A Stake President who excommunicated a member for nothing would have that overturned on appeal to the First Presidency. You don't get excommunicated for doing nothing. No one every got excommunicated for nothing. You get excommunicated for doing something. If they didn't do anything, they don't get excommunicated. It's not on the table and it never has been as a threat to keep "unruly" member under the thumb of abusive leadership.

Methinks there's an awful lot more to the story than that.

Me thinks there are some exaggerations going on though. "Consumed" or "Zoar" seems a bit of a false dichotomy. And see my response to that. Seems a pretty poor example for missionary work. Here! Buy this Kirby vacuum while I clean my house with this Dyson that you already own.

I can see what you're saying. But I'm not sure I agree. It's putting the technical need for time, interviews and re-baptism as the "difficult" part of coming back. I'd say excommunicated but faithful and active would be much easier to come back from in the ways that matter. That being said...I don't really believe excommunication was on the table here. It's a bit of an exaggerated point.

@Carborendum see @zil2's answer for basically what I was in the middle of typing up. I'd only add...it's my perception that leaving the church for another is as good as nullifying ordinances through excommunication anyhow. What's the difference? I didn't covenant to give all my time, talents and everything the Lord's blessed me with to some other church.

It is worth it. I trust in God that much. I trust accountability will be just. How can one believe otherwise in today's world? Either God is just or He is not. The plain fact is that the garbage is unavoidable. And it's going to get worse. And worse. And worse. It legitimately and truly frightens me, in particular for my children. I'm going to run from it too...as much as possible, and as much as it doesn't mean betraying the covenants I made, which matter more to me than anything else.

Whereas I agree with you.... I also understand. When you get into a classroom at church, or at a family party, or etc., and half the people in there are nodding their head in agreement to something egregious and false, it very much does make you worry for your kids' sakes. I mean we homeschool just to keep our kids away from that kind of stuff...and yet we are well aware they'll get it at church. And it seems like such a simple thing for the prophet or an apostle to clarify. Unlike @old, however, despite my consternation on the same ideas, I trust that God knows what he's doing and that He leads this church, and that for whatever reason that I don't understand, He wants the general confusion instead of the explicit clarity. Which makes a certain sense. I mean Jesus spoke in parables for a reason, right? I don't fully understand. But I fully trust. On a side note: apparently in the previous ward we attended (which is my wife's parents' ward), one of the brethren started wearing a dress to church. I mean a dress, high-heels, and carries a cute little purse around. I'm so glad we aren't in that ward any longer. But what do you do about that kind of garbage?! Argh. So frustrating.

I think the concern is (and I understand it) that the church has allowed too many members to misunderstand this by not being more explicit and direct.

I wrote up a large reply, but the more I consider the more I'm just not sure replying is going to be of much use. You don't seem to understand the import of covenants. Short of encouraging you to research and understand better... I'm just not sure what I can say. And saying more is probably only likely to offend further. But as a starting point here's a link, as a reminder, that explains what covenants are made in the endowment, for example. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng Moreover, you're clearly struggling with faith and testimony. The church is true or it isn't. What people do in a ward or stake doesn't change that. You need to know that core thing. I encourage you to find out through study, prayer, and faith. Beyond that, best wishes in your endeavors.

@old You still haven't said word one about covenants. I keep bringing it up. You keep ignoring it.

FWIW, I've heard commentary and feedback from people that is similar and I despise it. D&C 121:39 "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." Yep. The covenant path is the only path to exaltation. You have some issues, apparently, with that gospel truth. I don't feel like I deserve the blame for that for merely stating it.

I have a history of being pretty vehemently against the homosexual agenda. Honestly I think we'd get along rather well.

The keeping of covenants are key. If you truly believe you are then tell me to go jump. I don't think going inactive and attending a church that isn't God's authoritative church wherein the covenants are authoritatively made is keeping said covenants. That being said, I didn't directly tell you you are damned or call you an apostate. I did imply that those who leave the church are damning themselves. That's because of covenants, of which, if you have made them, you should also know very well what the consequences are for failing to keep them.

You don't know me. So we'll just let that one slide, as everyone else on the forum has a bit of a chuckle.

My position is irrelevant. I'm a rando on the internet. God's position is the only one that matters. If the church is God's church and the covenant path is His then you are damning yourself for leaving it. It has nothing to do with anyone else's position or anyone else's strength or weakness. If you don't believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church then you don't believe it. And we disagree. And it's as simple as that. But to claim that other's who DO believe this are weak for believing it doesn't hold a lot of water in my book. You're free to believe what you want and exercise your agency according to your convictions.

@old do you understand what's meant by "the covenant path"? Do you understand what's meant by "authority"? Do you understand the concepts and ideas behind the "restoration" of Christ's gospel. Do you understand priesthood keys? Do you understand the purposes and importance of the temple?

I'm not sure what your point is.