Urstadt

We own several hand guns, a rifle, and a shot gun. We keep everything in a gun safe. My wife and I both carry concealed.
 
I agree with paulsifier, if you're going to get a gun, for recreation or personal protection, be responsible. Take the time to read a few books on home defense, mental conditioning, and conceal carry (two short books would cover all three). Buy the quarterly issues of Home Defense magazine for the first 2 years. Get your CCW, even if your state is constitutional carry (meaning you can conceal without a permit). It looks good in court no matter what. Take at least one shooting lesson--even if it's just watching a half dozen reputable videos on youtube. Go to the range1-4 times per month. Dry fire at home. Secure your weapons at home. You don't necessarily need a safe because all guns come with a cable lock that drops through the chamber and magazine well to completely disable the gun. Know your limits. Know which ammunition carries a good stopping power/penetration ratio. Meaning, it may have some of the highest available stopping power, but it is far more likely to go through your intended target and kill someone on the other side. So, you can't just buy any hollow point and consider yourself good because some hollow points carry a significant chance of passing through your intended target. Also, know the reasonables of a lawful self-defense situation; e.g., it is reasonable to shoot a person, who poses a reasonable threat to your life, when they are within 21 feet of you, because they can close the gap in less than 1.5 seconds; but outside of 21 feet, it is more reasonable to brandish and give warnings/commands (this is how the po-po train). Another exmaple, you may be legally authorized in your state to use deadly force in a self-defense situation, but that doesn't mean you get to empty the magazine!
 
I can't stress enough how much of a responsibility it is. But, I also can't stress enough how urgent it is that you, as mirkwood said, prayerfully consider which choice to make.
 
JAG sets a good example: he knows about home/self defense. But, being the attorney that he is, he knows he isn't a position to do it the right away. So, he's shelved the idea for now.

My husband does. He loves hunting...but will defend his home & family if necessary too. He don't depend on no police for protection...that will be there after the damage is done...

Here's my breakdown:
S&W M&P 9 with night sights
S&W M&P 9c with night sights
S&W M&P Shield 9 with night sights
CZ 75 PCR "comfy" 9mm
Walther PK380 (my wife's carry gun)
Robinson XCR L with red dot
Mossberg 500 Tactical

I have a few......Sig Saur 9mm.....Ruger .357....Taurus .357......Harrington and Richardson  12 guage shotgun.....Marlin 22 rifle....Crossman Airrifle. 

We own several hand guns, a rifle, and a shot gun. We keep everything in a gun safe. My wife and I both carry concealed.
 
I agree with paulsifier, if you're going to get a gun, for recreation or personal protection, be responsible. Take the time to read a few books on home defense, mental conditioning, and conceal carry (two short books would cover all three). Buy the quarterly issues of Home Defense magazine for the first 2 years. Get your CCW, even if your state is constitutional carry (meaning you can conceal without a permit). It looks good in court no matter what. Take at least one shooting lesson--even if it's just watching a half dozen reputable videos on youtube. Go to the range1-4 times per month. Dry fire at home. Secure your weapons at home. You don't necessarily need a safe because all guns come with a cable lock that drops through the chamber and magazine well to completely disable the gun. Know your limits. Know which ammunition carries a good stopping power/penetration ratio. Meaning, it may have some of the highest available stopping power, but it is far more likely to go through your intended target and kill someone on the other side. So, you can't just buy any hollow point and consider yourself good because some hollow points carry a significant chance of passing through your intended target. Also, know the reasonables of a lawful self-defense situation; e.g., it is reasonable to shoot a person, who poses a reasonable threat to your life, when they are within 21 feet of you, because they can close the gap in less than 1.5 seconds; but outside of 21 feet, it is more reasonable to brandish and give warnings/commands (this is how the po-po train). Another exmaple, you may be legally authorized in your state to use deadly force in a self-defense situation, but that doesn't mean you get to empty the magazine!
 
I can't stress enough how much of a responsibility it is. But, I also can't stress enough how urgent it is that you, as mirkwood said, prayerfully consider which choice to make.
 
JAG sets a good example: he knows about home/self defense. But, being the attorney that he is, he knows he isn't a position to do it the right away. So, he's shelved the idea for now.

Just wanted to post two of my favorite pictures.

I completely agree with you, pipeorgan. I sincerely was trying to be mindful of how I came across to you. But, I do need to be mindful that everyone has different communication styles. If I rubbed you the wrong way, or said something that could have been taken the wrong way, then I sincerely apologize. :)

Actually, I believe that I saw good in the church and its members BECAUSE of the holy spirit's guidance.  I understand that you guys may not have meant any harm in your questioning, but you might want to be a bit more careful while questioning the validity of someone's faith and choices.  It might rub someone the wrong way if not worded carefully.  

We have a 380 pistol.
 

 
I wouldn't consider myself "well" armed but I'm armed.

Just to add a little more to also urstadt said: know what you're going to do with the gun before you get it and be prepared for that. It sounds like I haven't done all he proposes to do, but I also don't conceal carry yet, nor do I have my gun really accessible. I want to be better trained and informed before I take those steps. I guess what I'm saying is, part of being responsible is being honest with yourself. Am I ready to conceal carry? Am I ready to have my gun easily accessible? If that's what I want, what steps do I need to take to prepare for that?

We own several hand guns, a rifle, and a shot gun. We keep everything in a gun safe. My wife and I both carry concealed.
 
I agree with paulsifier, if you're going to get a gun, for recreation or personal protection, be responsible. Take the time to read a few books on home defense, mental conditioning, and conceal carry (two short books would cover all three). Buy the quarterly issues of Home Defense magazine for the first 2 years. Get your CCW, even if your state is constitutional carry (meaning you can conceal without a permit). It looks good in court no matter what. Take at least one shooting lesson--even if it's just watching a half dozen reputable videos on youtube. Go to the range1-4 times per month. Dry fire at home. Secure your weapons at home. You don't necessarily need a safe because all guns come with a cable lock that drops through the chamber and magazine well to completely disable the gun. Know your limits. Know which ammunition carries a good stopping power/penetration ratio. Meaning, it may have some of the highest available stopping power, but it is far more likely to go through your intended target and kill someone on the other side. So, you can't just buy any hollow point and consider yourself good because some hollow points carry a significant chance of passing through your intended target. Also, know the reasonables of a lawful self-defense situation; e.g., it is reasonable to shoot a person, who poses a reasonable threat to your life, when they are within 21 feet of you, because they can close the gap in less than 1.5 seconds; but outside of 21 feet, it is more reasonable to brandish and give warnings/commands (this is how the po-po train). Another exmaple, you may be legally authorized in your state to use deadly force in a self-defense situation, but that doesn't mean you get to empty the magazine!
 
I can't stress enough how much of a responsibility it is. But, I also can't stress enough how urgent it is that you, as mirkwood said, prayerfully consider which choice to make.
 
JAG sets a good example: he knows about home/self defense. But, being the attorney that he is, he knows he isn't a position to do it the right away. So, he's shelved the idea for now.

I want one for home defense; but we have five small kids and life's so chaotic right now that frankly I don't think we have the time or resources to become safe, conscientious gun owners.
 
Maybe in a few years . . .

I own a ruger sr 22. It's a .22 long rifle handgun. After the shootings, stories of home invasion, long talks and some saving we bought it. I don't like guns, never have, but feel like, to protect my family, it's a good idea to have one. We bought a .22 in how that our shots had a chance of not killing the attacker, but enough power to cause enough pain to make them stop. I will say that gun ownership shouldn't be taken lightly. If you get one, please do the research to handle and store it safely and practice enough to be affective. Not saying it needs to take over your life, just saying you need to be responsible.

Yep...since I was 12 years old.
 
From my blog.  This was written from a preparedness aspect, but covers my feelings on self defense and gun onwership:
 
The Controversial Item

This is a topic that will scare some people. I strongly encourage those of you who find this topic frightening to first consider what is said. A knee jerk reaction to an item distorted and misrepresented by the liberal media is not the best way to make a decision. Take the time to read, ponder and consider the ramifications for and against this item and then prayerfully ask the Lord for help in determining what is best for you and your family. The correct answer for one family may not be the correct answer for another. Only you and the Lord can determine what is right for you. But you need to take the time to really think about why you might need this item, remove emotional reactions and prejudicial thinking before you can make an inspired decision. Seek the Lord's guidance and you will be led to the right answer for your family.
 

The Book Of Mormon On Self Defense
When we consider Emergency Preparedness we would do well to recognize there are many people who will not have made preparations to take care of their families. The only possible solution to their problem is to hope for charity, or to take what they need by force. While charity is a virtue and was taught by Christ, it has never been a church practice or doctrine to be victimized by evil men. Consider the following verses from the Book of Mormon. 
Alma 43: 46-47 "And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies. And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion." 
The Book of Mormon is full of stories of valiant and faithful followers of Christ who were willing to fight to protect themselves. There are some Church members who try to twist the covenant made by the People of Ammon into a defense of pacifism and eventual victimization by evil men. Prominent LDS author Orson Scott Card responded to an email he received on this topic. In part Brother Card had this to say, "You're missing the point. The people (Nephite and Ammonite) were being attacked. The Ammonites, bound by their oath, did not lift a hand to defend themselves. But the Nephites, being compassionate, went to war, not because they had a "warlike culture" (that was the Lamanites and rebel Nephites) but because they could not bear to see a righteous people suffering the slaughter of war. "To stand idly by while murderers commit murder, when protecting their victims is within your power, is not "pacifism," it's either cowardice or arrogance. My righteousness is worth more than your life, such pacifists say." 
The initial email and response can be found here: http://www.nauvoo.com/response.html 

New Orleans
When you consider what happened in the city of New Orleans in the aftermath of the floods caused by the levee break after hurricane Katrina you can see how quickly a city overwhelmed by a large scale disaster can descend into complete anarchy. Police and Fire services were immediately overwhelmed by this disaster. Several hundred New Orleans police officers quit their jobs within 24 hours of the levee break. As a career peace officer I can tell you that if things are bad enough and I do not feel like my family is safe and will be taken care of, I will not show up for work either. I have not met the co-worker yet who feels any different then I do. We are people, we have families to take care of, and despite the fact we have dedicated our lives to a dangerous profession and do so willingly, none of us will sacrifice our families for the sake of the community. Anyone who tells you different is a liar and when society falls apart will not act any different then the rest of us. Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and willingly walk the dangerous path I have chosen, but my family comes first. If I know my family is safe I will be there for you and so will my co-workers. If not I will be happy to take care of my immediate area, but I will not be driving clear across the valley where I can not take care of my family in the case of an immediate threat to their safety. 
Why am I talking about this? Consider the following quotes from a CNN article about New Orleans and consider what could happen to your family or mine. 

Relief workers confront 'urban warfare'  
Violence disrupts evacuation, rescue efforts in New Orleans NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Violence disrupted relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued desperate residents still trapped in the flooded city and tried to evacuate thousands of others living among corpses and human waste. Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown said his agency was attempting to work "under conditions of urban warfare." Police snipers were stationed on the roof of their precinct, trying to protect it from armed miscreants roaming seemingly at will. Officers warned a CNN crew to stay off the streets because of escalating danger, and cautioned others about attempted shootings and rapes by groups of young men. "They have quite a few people running around here with guns," he said. "You got these young teenage boys running around up here raping these girls." Elsewhere, groups of armed men wandered the streets, buildings smoldered and people picked through stores for what they could find. Charity Hospital, one of several facilities attempting to evacuate patients, was forced to halt the effort after coming under sniper fire. 
I'm sure you all remember the scenes from the news of the chaos on the streets. What if this happened in your city? For example, a catastrophic earthquake along the Wasatch fault, would overwhelm the public safety system immediately. We may not even have the ability to respond. If roads can not be driven or bridges are out, how will the Fire or Police vehicles reach you? That assumes that the phone system is even working so you can call 911 and ask for help. A major earthquake, one that scientists say we are far overdue to have, would also likely knock out the radio systems that we use at work. An inability to communicate will enhance the problems and decrease the ability of public safety to respond to problems. 

Each of you has parents, brothers, sisters, children, someone you call your family. What would you do if you lived in New Orleans and a group of thugs came to your home and wanted what little food you had and then proceeded to rape your wife or daughter. What happens when they tie you up and make you watch as they torture, rape then kill your loved ones. Do you really believe for a second that kind of evil is not out there? As a career law enforcement officer I can attest to you that not only is that kind of evil out there, it is alive and well and preying on the weak. This is happening right now without some kind of disaster going on to start this problem. These sorts of crimes are happening right now in Salt Lake County on...a regular basis. 

The Controversial Item Discussed
Where is this all going? What am I talking about? The Controversial Item. I am talking about guns. Ok, some of you need to take a deep breath and calm yourselves. I guarantee that someone reading this just thought "guns are dangerous." When someone says this to me, I always ask that person to tell me why. The only response I get is the statement, "cause guns are dangerous." A gun is nothing more or less then a tool. You need to overcome your irrational fear and take an unbiased look at this tool and recognize that one may even save your life someday. 

Our society has created an unrealistic perception about guns. Look back at the article you just read on the aftermath of Katrina. Armed thugs were wandering the city stealing, raping and murdering. This sort of behavior occurs in Salt Lake County every night with an active police force patrolling the streets twenty four hours a day seven days a week. Think about that for a minute. We have a police presence 24 hours a day 7 days a week and that behavior happens every night. What do you really think will happen if some catastrophic event brings the law enforcement system to an immediate halt? There are people in this community who would love nothing more then to see this happen. They will take advantage of a catastrophe to wreak their brand of havoc on society when it happens, and the Prophets have told us it will come. You would be well advised to have prepared to defend yourself and your family. Again, the Lord has never taught us to be victimized by evil men. 

Responsible Firearm Ownership
I am a strong advocate of responsible firearms ownership. I am also a supporter of the Concealed Firearms Permit laws in our state and encourage everyone who is eligible to get one. I recommend the ownership of firearms that you can use to both defend yourself and to put food on the table. There are guns that are for hunting and there are guns used for self defense. A few are interchangeable in their use, but you would do better to have guns that are for suited to each specific purpose. I personally have firearms for self defense, hunting and a couple that can be used for either. In any event, having at least one firearm and a reasonable amount of ammuntion is a must. Part of responsible firearms ownership is learning the proper handling and care of your guns. If you are someone who has never been around or handled guns, then some sort of training is in your best interest. It can be as simple as taking a hunter safety course, or more specialized self defense courses. All of these classes include basic firearms handling and safety training. Proper handling includes proper storage of your guns and teaching your children safety rules as well. My children have grown up around firearms and I have taught them gun safety. Even with the training my kids have recieved, I still have a gun safe to lock them up. This keeps my firearms out of the curious little hands of neighboring kids who come to our house and play. I also store my more mundane tools in places that my children can not get to them and harm themselves. I also keep dangerous chemicals out of their reach. Again, they are just tools and not dangerous in and of themselves. The misuse or mishandling of a tool is where the problem arises. An axe or hammer or power saw can kill just as easily as a gun. Guns are not dangerous, stupid people with guns are dangerous. Power saws are not dangerous, stupid people with power saws are dangerous. You are more likely to be killed or injured driving your car then you are to be hurt by a firearm. 

What Would You Do?
Consider again the aftermath of Katrina and the effect it had on law enforcement. Under normal circumstances the police respond to a crime after it has occurred to investigate what happened and gather evidence to send to the District Attorney's Office for prosecution. Unfortunately, in most circumstances the crime has been committed and the suspect fled long before we can arrive. There are people out there who will hurt you and take what you have because they can. That is reality. There are people out there who will hurt you...just because. That is reality and it is getting worse. Several years ago there was a program on KATU TV in Portland, Oregon. The show was called Town Hall. The host was a man named Jack Faust. He did a show covering the topic of Emergency Preparedness. He had guests on who spoke about what kinds of preparations they had made. One of his guests made a chilling statement, "I don't have to have supplies, but I know where he lives (pointing to the previous man). I have plenty of guns and ammunition. I plan to go take his stuff to support my family." He was not joking, but was dead serious about using force to take what he needed from someone else to take care of his family. 
Let me reiterate, there are people out there who will hurt you and take what you have because they can. There are lots of them who live in Salt Lake County. I know, I have talked with and arrested many of them. What if you had to deal with someone like that on your own? Are you prepared? 
Here is another thought. I have spoken with people who have seen the next item happening at gun shows they have attended. A few years ago, just prior to the Y2K scare, there was a group of individuals that were selling lists of "known" Mormons. They were selling Stake and Ward congregation directories. The idea behind this was, Don't worry about preparing yourselves, just use your guns to take what someone else has already prepared. A fellow officer saw this happening. 

Mormons are known for many things, including food storage and emergency preparedness. You would be wise to anticipate this sort of mentality in the case of a disaster. I have learned over the years that some people are deterred by thing only...the use of force. The only thing that deters them is the threat of force being used against them. Predators look for victims. If someone comes to your home armed with a gun, you have two choices. You can be victimized and probably hurt or killed, or you can be prepared to protect yourself. Remember that there are worse things that people can do to you then kill you. 
You also need to study state laws where you live so that you understand what levels of force you can legally use and under what circumstances they are justified. 

In Conclusion
Self defense is a touchy subject, especially when we begin to discuss firearms. Whatever you decide, make sure that you ponder and prayerfully consider the whole idea of self defense. I'm not just talking about firearms. Just like with all other aspects of Emergency Preparedness, all things must considered prayerfully so that you make the right choices for yourself and your family.

No, the fact that I am a paid musician does not make me inherently better than any other musician. It's my 1337 sk1lls. Just kidding...
Paid clergy of other denominations are often very informed, many with Ph.D's in theology. Catholic priests study for many years before they are ordained. Does this make them better than the average bishop? Perhaps many of them are more educated and scholarly. I suppose that doesn't necessarily make them more effective to the majority, though. And no, it does not make them inherently "better", but I believe their devotion and knowledge should be respected and they should not be looked down upon for being paid. I also believe it is very commendable that bishops donate so much of their time for free, but I don't think this makes their service superior. Each system has its good points.

Yes, I understand it is not treated as a profession in the church.
And yes, there are people who are paid who are not very good and some that are unpaid that are amazing. In general, the quality is higher if the musician is paid, though.
Where did you get that I want people to bow down to my superior talent? I never said anything of the sort...

I, too, would prefer that a person gain a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I also agree with paulsifer's points as well. But, pipeorgan, I noticed that you haven't commented since the thread tangent the direction it did, even though you've been on well since its tangent. Sometimes we get a little off track... too much technology made us impeccable multi-taskers. Perhaps so impeccable that we sometimes stray from the question of the person in need. Forgive us.
 
I'm going to make some assumptions below, since this isn't a face-to-face conversation. Please, feel free to come on and correct me if needs be.
 
Pipeorgan, it is more ideal to have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. However, you chose to join based on how the people live their lives and I think that's great! The gospel has a foot in the door in your life. The seed has been planted. :) We are actually encouraged to live this way so that others see the light we shine. That shining causes people to start asking the questions that build and nurture testimonies. So, ask away, and keep asking! You're doing the right thing by asking and trying to gain that testimony now (that is, assuming you don't have one already). Take courage in knowing that testimonies take time to grow and nurture. This is not a bad thing, as paulsifer points out. However, I agree with TFP that if you don't build/nurture it, it is problematic. That is, if you don't do you part to grow it (key caveat here). If I can be of any assistance, please, start threads and I for one will be happy to help out.
 
In the mean time, if I am right with my assumption, please take a look at Alma 32:20-43
 
 
You spoke earlier of confirmation bias. I can relate. My training in psychology has brought unwelcomed concerns to my mind at times. But, please remember that confirmation bias requires opposing evidence. There will never be opposing evidence about Christ's true religion. That makes conf. bias null and void. As far as your concerns about being led astray by your emotions: again, I can relate. And I think a good many in the church with strong testimonies can relate as well. Still, I refer you to Alma's experiment quoted above. As that seed grows, your faith will be so strong you will no longer doubt. This will be because you feel the Holy Ghost bearing testimony.
 
Here is a talk I highly recommend as well:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/but-if-not?lang=eng

Scrutiny in the sense that everyone is entitled to pray an ask God if the Revelations are true and if they are prophets.  Strikes me a wise and part of the plan of God.
 
Scrutiny in the sense that God told me yes but I am going to look for flaws and reason to doubt anyways... Strikes me as very unwise

I believe we should question everything. But, I agree with what Paulsifer and JAG have said: it shouldn't be done nihilistically or with accusations.
Regarding confirmation bias: don't forget that confirmation bias is when we exclude challenging, true evidence. It's not just when we only believe what we want.
I believe gravity works every time.
*Throws keys up in the air*
Yep! Gravity still works! Now, is this confirmation bias? No. There is no evidence against my belief to ignore. With religion, there can be no confirmation bias because there is no evidence against it to ignore in the interest of confirming our biased beliefs.
Does that make sense?

I've found that when I question and sincerely look for answers, keeping in mind what and why I believe what I already do, I often find my faith stronger than before I questioned.  So, I think we should always question, while keeping in mind the answers we've already received.  I highly recommend keeping a journal for this reason, documenting what you believe and why, so when questions come, you have as clear a picture as you can get of what you already believe and why.  I keep bringing up 'why' because I think the why is just as important to remember as the 'what'.

I don't think we should question merely for questioning's sake.  But if, in the course of our studies, questions or issues come up:  By all means we should explore them; honestly, with an open mind, and not trying to write personal revelation out of the process.
 
In another thread I referred you to The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens.  You really should read it.

Loving Heavenly Father makes easy-hard irrelevant. I just do it.
Like a job. When my boss asks me to do something, whether it be hard or easy is recognized but still irrelevant. I was asked to do it, I am going to get it done.
Although, obeying Heavenly Father is many times over more rewarding and edifying than obeying my boss.

Rofl... that made me LOL.
Maybe they can get Wierd Al to write their school anthem by covering and changing the lyrics to Metallica's song.

Thanks. Just trying to keep things light.
I would love to hear that song. I used to listen to a lot of Metallica.

Rofl... that made me LOL.
Maybe they can get Wierd Al to write their school anthem by covering and changing the lyrics to Metallica's song.