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TomK I'm surprised you used Elder McConkie's talk, given that so many feel he was too 'hard core' with his teachings! Thank you for that talk. Chashataway, Thanks for that tidbit. It is so very true that too many deny the source from which we claim to be different, mainly the right to revelation in our lives and the necessity of it in the 'life' of the Church. After being on this board for over a year, I have noticed that there is a lot of contention in a lot of ways regarding the doctrines of the Church. Last night, as my wife and I were reading the BOM, we read this: 21 And it came to pass that the seventy and sixth year did end in peace. And the seventy and seventh year began in peace; and the church did spread throughout the face of all the land; and the more part of the people, both the Nephites and the Lamanites, did belong to the church; and they did have exceedingly great peace in the land; and thus ended the seventy and seventh year. 22 And also they had peace in the seventy and eighth year, save it were a few contentions concerning the points of doctrine which had been laid down by the prophets. 23 And in the seventy and ninth year there began to be much strife. But it came to pass that Nephi and Lehi, and many of their brethren who knew concerning the true points of doctrine, having many revelations daily, therefore they did preach unto the people, insomuch that they did put an end to their strife in that same year. 24 And it came to pass that in the eightieth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, there were a certain number of the dissenters from the people of Nephi, (bold and italics mine) (Helaman11:21 - 24) We think we are so wise with our sophistries sometimes, trying to pick which teachings of the prophets and apostles we will keep, trying to ascertain when they speak as a man and when they speak as a servant of the Lord. We are commanded to have the Spirit with us, and are promised it when we are baptized and every week we partake of the sacrament, if we will be obedient. Sin causes us to grow apart from God and the spirit, until we are left to our own devices, which usually doesn't turn out so well. Here we have an example of the Nephites, aftera mass conversion, questioning the points of doctrine of the Prophets, so much so that there was great strife and then a mass dissension to the Gadianton robbers. We must be very careful how we speak of and regard the prophets and apostles. Our eternal lives are at stake.

My point was that whatever reason they do it for, I believe that the Lord blesses them because they do keep the Sabbath holy, at least in retail. Or maybe it is just Northern Italy and the Netherlands where I have been on a Sunday that do this, I don't know. Thanks to others that let me know their experiences. I really hope to one day get the privilege of living in Europe for a while. As fiona84 said, the lack of the 'go go' lifestyle, and the ability to sit back, spend time with family and friends, drink a beer or wine and just enjoy it instead of pounding them down as fast as possible (granted, not talking of church members, but only those with whom I've associated during my visits here) and just enjoying life seems very nice to me. We really do work too hard in the US.

Hemi, My father spoke of a time that Elder Packer (my favorite speaker, I always just love his talks. And, strangely, another one that some members have a problem with. What we really need are more popular prophets, those that speak with a smooth tongue so that they don't offend anyone! But I digress...) came to our stake to make a new stake and interview for a new SP. My father, being a HP, was able to meet with him, and he stated that when he walked in he actually saw a white aura about Elder Packer. The Spirit is definitely with the Lord's anointed, particularly his apostles in the Latter Days...

UTC, In case you haven't noticed, it seems that some always try to make light of sacred things. Don't know why...they must think they are being cute or something...

And then there is the other side of Europe, or at least Amsterdam. What a magnificent city! So much architecture and history. But the group I'm with decides to do a picture scavenger hunt down in the famous 'red light district'. I haven't felt that uncomfortable (and completely filthy and 'spirit numbed') ever. Pictures out in the open that would make Larry Flint blush, the girls banging on the windows to get you to come in with them, the utter feeling of blackness that engulfs the area. I found myself looking down almost the entire time, except every once in a while I would look up to see where everyone was, and I'd get rasted with something. Ughh. I wish I could give my brain a shower. But most of all I felt an incredible sadness. Sadness that this is actually a TOURIST area, one that they recommend you go see. Sadness at how empty people's eyes were that were in that area. Sadness for the girls that do this to themselves. I don't know why the Lord just doesn't slap us upside the head more. We really need it. 9/11 was a good slap to the US, but it lasted all of about 2-3 months. Then we were back with our shrill crap about gay rights, abortions, lying, cheating, stealing. It really is a wonder to me that the God of Heaven just doesn't wipe us off and start over. He must really weep that his children are so dumb and obstinate in sin.

Pres Benson (yes, another Prophet that was just too blunt for those that have a hard time feeling the spirit) once said that the solution of the world is to take the man out of the ghetto, the solution of spirit is to take the ghetto out of the man. We that have had that baptism by the spirit have had some of that ghetto taken out of us. We do things because we KNOW it is the right thing to do, not because of a book or the rules or that we might incur displeasure from others (and in our pride try to stick it up their noses to show them that you won't stand for their santimonious behavior!). We do it because it is written in our hearts and we want to obey. It is something that those that don't have a testimony borne of the spirit will never understand. Instead, we are 'mind numbed robots', those that 'can't think for themselves' etc. They deny the power of the spirit in people's lives because they don't understand it.

I have had the opportunity to travel around the world with the various companies I have had the opportunity to work for, mainly to the Far East (Japan, Korea, Hong Kong) and Australia. With my present company I have had the opportunity to travel to Europe twice now (I am presently in Amsterdam for the week), and I noticed something: Here it is, Sunday afternoon, and there aren't any stores open. None (excepting restaurants). I noticed the same while in Italy last year, that on Sunday I couldn't just pop in to the grocery store and pick up a couple of things to eat, or some other little shop to get some batteries. Everything was closed. I must say, I am very impressed. Granted, my experiences are very limited (2 Sundays total), but it seems, SEEMS, that the Europeans keep the Sabbath Day, at least as far as retail and the like goes. I wish that we in the States, who like to think we are so Christian and God fearing, would follow their example in this. How much more would the Lord be allowed to bless us just because we adhered to this basic commandment (D&C 82:10)? I fear our worship of the false idol 'the almighty buck' is skewing our vision and putting us in terrible peril. Major sporting events are held on the Sabbath, major exhibits, major sales, etc., etc., etc. A basic return to Sabbath day observance would right so many of the wrongs that we as a nation are currently facing, I believe. Anywayt, my attitude towards Europe has taken a 180 degree turn. There is something here that really tugs at my roots. My ancestors fled Europe for better opportunities in the US, for which I am eternally grateful. I truly love being an American. But my roots come from here, and there is something very comfortable being here that I never experienced elsewhere in my travels, even in the 6+ years I lived in Japan (I know, I was much taller and had rounder eyes, but there is a part of me, I'm convinced, that is Japanese. I was just never really 'accepted').

Both. Alma chastised those that kicked them out, and then chastised those that felt sorry for themselves, asking if they thought that the synogogues were the only places they could worship...

Willow, Inactivity does not necessarily equal apostasy. I have known some active members that were on the road to apostasy. I see it here on this board with some of the snide comments towards church leaders. JS taught that if someone is criticizing church leaders you can be sure they are on the high road to apostasy. Also, you mention several times that you believed, just didn't attend, for whatever reasons. That does not constitute apostasy. Skal defined very well, thru the scriptures, what apostasy is. Also, apostasy isn't a 'one time' event. It takes place over time, and usually comes about thru being offended by the commandments, not praying, not studying your scriptures, not attending sacrament meetings, etc. We decide, for whatever reason, that we don't want the light that our HF gives us thru these sources, as well as the counsel of our church leaders, and Satan is more than happy to replace that light with darkness. Apostates (like those that attend the University of Utah!) tend to fight against the church as well, and not let it alone. They cannot be neutral, simply letting it alone, but must fight it. JS spoke of that to an early member (Dan Jones, I believe, but can't recollect right now), telling him, when asked why the apostates wouldn't leave the church alone, that anyone that has that spirit seeks for the blood of the leaders, they can't just leave and leave it alone.

Hate crimes are just an attempt to legislate thought. It is as ridiculous as the latest thing about how a criminal doesn't say that they are sorry after being convicted. The outcry from that is worse than the original crime. (So, they raped and killed your 9 year old daughter? Did he say he was sorry? No?! Why, that dirty rotton so-and-so!). The crime, whatever it is, should be enough. Heaven knows we have enough laws in this country. But if you pick on the gays, or the blacks, or women, or Mexicans, somehow it is 'worse' because you obviously hate them. What does that have to do with the crime? It is my God-given right to hate whomever I want. If I don't do anything to them, why is it anyone's business? If I do do something to them, then I should be prosecuted on my actions, not my thoughts or feelings towards that group of individuals. But, of course, that doesn't fit into the agenda of thought control that is being (more rapidly) infused into the gov't schools and the drive by media...

You know, it really wasn't all that crap either with Huckabee and the others. The same thing would have happened in the Dem party, I'm sure. It is more that there is not difference btw Repubs and Dems anymore except for one thing, kind of, and that is the war. I talked with the cabbie on Tuesday as I was heading to the airport. He was a political refugee from Iraq, escaping during the reign of Saddam. Saddam had killed his mother and brother for political reasons. He was disgusted with the way the media and the parties are fighting about what is happening over in Iraq. He said the Iraq is so much better that it was during Saddam's reign, that the soldiers, except for a small area in Iraq, are very well liked and trusted, etc., and yet we NEVER see any part of that. And the Repubs are a bunch of spineless wonders that don't tell the Libs to shut up, that don't challenge the pilf that is passed off as 'journalism' but these left wing kooks as propoganda, etc. Anyway, I didn't care that they rejected Mitt. Having lived in the South for so long, that is par for the course. Friendliest people I know, and I will retire there because I like them, but I also know that they are taught in church that I, being a Mormon, am going straight to hell...

sgallan, be careful what you wish for...

And you aren't paranoid enough.

Much like Ronald Reagan claimed 40 some years ago that the Democrat party had left him, not he it (??), I believe that the Republican party has left me. I can't see any difference btw any of the candidates except one wears a dress, one has to drink prune juice, and one thinks everyone is out to get him because of his race. I'm just curious about if you believe that your party has left you as well?

And Hemi, we are selling our soul for money (not that that is a new thing). I work for a company that is investing heavily in Communist China because it is 'cheaper'. And driving US companies out of business because of lack of work. One day, the commies are going to say 'hey, thanks for all of the investment and machinery, now get the hell out of our country' and then they'll use all of our technology against us in a war. To believe that they are somehow 'reformed' is naive. Almost Chamberlain-esque. But, as was said many many moons ago: 'you can buy anything in this world for money', and we have gone downhill ever since...

There is a difference btw the wacko environmentalists and the conservationists I believe most if not all LDS are (and most of the people of the US for that matter) conservationists. The wacko environmentalists want nothing more than to destroy the US and our economy. All of the stupid laws that have been enacted to 'protect' the earth are nothing more than taxes levied to try and drive companies that the wackos deem 'evil' in their eyes out of business. Conservationists, on the other hand, take care of their land and are stewards over what they own. If you really want to be a good little environmentalist, buy all the duck stamps and hunting licenses you can. Those moneys are used to preserve refuges for all the game birds, deer, etc., and do much good. But of course, you'd have to get off of your high horse about the evil of guns for a bit... But that's another argument... Algore, friend of the earth. And making a pile of money off of it. If he were in charge of, say, General Electric, the wacko enviros would be having a conniption (sp?) fit about his lifestyle, but since he is 'pro-Earth' he is given a pass for making obscene amounts of money to teach us how to live better. Kind of like Teddy 'the swimmer' Kennedy gets a pass everytime he molests a young woman because he is fighting for women's rights. Libs just don't make sense...

Fiannan, I'm sure it is no coincidence...

whoopde doo... I went out and burned some tires...

Interesting. In my last ward we decided as a Bishopric to focus on the previous conference talks, but that the speakers were to use them as a reference and not recite them. Caused all types of heartburn with some. To me, it is easy. If Elder Oaks spoke of Pornography, don't read his talk. We can watch BYUTV to see it again. Rather, use it as a jumping off point, find other references, use your own experiences, etc., and show why the talk was relevant to you and what you have learned/can teach us. I do the same here in the branch we are currently in. To me, the GC talks should be the focus of our attention for the next 6 months, as they are the latest revealed words from the prophets to us. But you are 100% correct. Don't just read what someone else has written down. I love it when I get to substitute in BOM SS class. Since I'm over SS, but don't have ot prepare, I can go off on any tangent I want since I don't have the manual. And the Spirit has really blessed me with insights while I'm teaching, some I share, some I don't.

Ruthie, I will agree with that. The answer is the 'FairTax'. Get the book by John Linder and Neal Boortz. But it will never become law. As you said...it makes too much sense...

Ruthie, You were so close. We do need to follow the counsel of the Prophets and be prepared. 'Bush's tax cuts' are not the reason we are having the problems we are having. Since when is it bad that people keep the money they earned? The problem is that the libs, both in the Dem and Repub party, don't have the sense to NOT spend what they don't have! Instead they give money away to everyone without a care in the world. Try living that way in your personal life. Spend like a drunken sailor, and then when the bill collectors show up at your house wanting all you own, try telling them that it is your boss's fault for not paying you enough (like the libs try to do by demonizing the rich). And yet, we keep electing these dolts that do not have the best interests of us or the USA in mind, but rather how they can be elected again, and again, and again. And that way is to take YOUR money and give it to someone else. I for one wish that the conservatives would rise up and demand that the income tax be done away with, or at least not taken out of your check automatically. That way, about April 15 of every year when you have to cut that check to good ol' Uncle Sam, people would be shocked and then probably do something about this confiscatory tax burden we are under. The Boston tea party happened over a 1/2% tax rate hike. Sam Adams and the boys must be rolling in their graves at the wussiness that is us today...

Is there a webpage I can go to to read more about this? Yesterday our HC rep came and talked about this (we are going to implement it very soon here in Western NY), and I never got a chance to follow up with him on website info, etc. He mentioned that he was helping to input names from the microfiche and other data, and that it was easy to sign up to do it (apparently, you get a file with some names on the pdf, and you input the names in a spreadsheet below and send it back. This will help people find records via the internet without having to order any files). It sounds very easy to use, and I'm excited to see it. Thanks.

Skal, Exactly. There is no such thing as too much prayer. And nothing (righteous desire wise) is out of bounds...

Ruthie-chan, I'm not arguing about the effects for good or bad as it pertains to caffeine. I personally think it isn't a good thing to drink a lot of. I myself have stomach problems that caffeine exacerbates, but sometimes it is better to suffer later than to die in a car wreck... However, nowhere is it written in the D&C what the reasoning was behind no 'hot drinks'. We can talk till we're blue in the face of the pros and cons of caffeine, beer, wine, etc., etc., etc. My point was that the Lord simply said 'don't do this'. Ours is not to try and find the reasons behind it so that it is easier for us to justify to ourselves or the world. All we know for sure is that the Lord said 'don't' so we shouldn't. Kona, that is weird about the sleep apnea after you quit smoking. I have terrible insomnia...maybe I should start smoking??:)) Or better yet, get off my fat behind and do some exercise...

How so?? Abortion, particularly partial birth abortion, has definitely devalued the sanctity of life to most.