a-train

You know, I have read a lot of J of D and I love it! It's awesome! You have to understand context. Take any of the quotes put forth by the 'anti-mormons' and go and read it in context yourself and in almost every cotton-picking instance you will see that their assertion is only good out of context. Some of the quotes they take are full of [...]s and begin and end in the middle of sentence or thought. None are ever accompanied with valueable commentary. The claims laid in connection with such are often outrageous. If you listen to them it would seem that the religion of the pioneers was totally different from ours today, but go and read it all for yourself and you will see it was exactly the same. As for this instance, Elder Grant's talk has suddenly lost some words, and the poster didn't even use any [...] nor did he give any specific reference. It was from a talk in the Tabernacle Aug. 7, 1853 J of D 1:341 (SEE IT FOR YOURSELF HERE). His talk was on 'Uniformity'. It is a briliant tracing of man's history through the scriptures and throughout time displaying a lack of 'uniformity'. It demonstrates that since the fall, all the world both man and nature has been out of 'uniformity'. Throughout his talk he demonstrated various raging opinions of men and how they never agreed. It was in this context that upon arriving upon the 1st century after the Apostles that he mentioned one Celsus a "heathen philosopher" who he demonstrates as one speaking against Christ and the Apostles asserting that one of the reasons for their persecution among the Jews was because they were polygamous. (Google Celsus and you will see that Elder Grant was correct). He further demonstrates the lack of 'uniformity' by calling to our attention that "His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety." Elder Grant's statement concerning 'the persecution of Jesus and His followers' as mentioned by the 'anti-mormon' poster was conveniently void of the portion that said: "according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age." Indeed Elder Grant didn't claim that Jesus and the Apostles were polygamous in this case, but mentioned only that Celsus, the 'anti' had made such a claim in an effort to explain their persecution. This simply illustrates the many layers of the lack of 'uniformity' with a striking fimiliarity to the LDS listener in the Tabernacle at that time. Although I won't deny that LDS have speculated concerning Jesus' marital status, this precise citing from Elder Grant is nothing more than 'anti-mormon' cut-and-paste which does more cutting than pasting as usual. As you can see, the amount of time and effort necessary to obtain and read Elder Grant's talk and then post a reply such as this one is somewhat burdensome and the 'anti-mormon' is counting on it. He is hoping we will never figure out where that quote came from nor that he edited it to suit his purpose. More than that, our 'anti-mormon' is hoping we will automatically doubt Elder Grant, and wonder if a talk from one of the LORD's anointed from the pulpit of the Tabernacle is true. He hopes to see debates about whether or not Elder Grant was inspired. "Did he say 'in the name of the LORD'?" "Was it in a conference?" "Was this speculation?" This is doubt, the doubt our 'anti-mormon' is looking for. Our 'anti-mormon' is hoping to see us cast these sermons out of our history assuming Grant and many others had mistakenly spoken. He is hoping we will wonder where revelation ends and speculation begins. He wants us to see each other have no answers and seem stumped. But it is only he and they that think like him that will remain in darkness. The righteous will go on to perfection while he trifles with everything. And in this very act of deceit he confirms the validity of Elder Grant's saying that "the devil exerted his power in ancient days to destroy the work of God, so he will in the latter days." God Bless -a-train

Christians are all those who take upon them the name of Christ and believe in His Divinity and Atonement. There should be no effort made to divide them based on their understanding of that Divinity or the Doctrines of His Gospel. Let them all be called Christians whether Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Restorationist, a man who claims to worship Christ should be allowed as much and be called a Christian. -a-train

In one sense, the LORD has never stepped out or given matters to another's hands. He controls all things and as far as Satan has power over the governments of the earth and the hearts of men, the LORD still plays them all to bring about His own purposes. True, today is the day of Satan's power, but there is no war, no plague, no work of death, no affliction that falls upon man save that which is from God. No ruler comes to power, no party rises to supremacy, nothing takes place without Him. He causes the Sun to rise, the tides to come in, all things are in His power. So why do good things happen to bad people? Why do bad things happen to good people? Because this life is a probationary state (2 Nephi 2:21), a time to prepare to meet God and to see if we will do all things which the LORD commands us. These things should all work in our hearts to repentance and turn us to God. But if we let the evil one have our heart, they will drive us to hate and murmuring. How wicked is the world? Paul said that the time would come that "men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:" (2 Tim 3) YEP, THAT IS TODAY. -a-train

It is my opinion they will be of natural Jewish decent. They will be either converts or the children of converted Jews currently engaged in the rebuilding of the Holy Land. Indeed parents today (I am one) face a tremendously terrible world to place their children in. Joseph Smith believed the wickedness in the world of his time was comparable to the times of Noah. I can hardly fathom how to make the world a worse place than it already is. Technology brings vivid carnal knowledge of ungodliness to all the world now, and although love and tolerance is preached more than ever, war and violence seem to go on and on among a more lazy and murmuring people. Courts are full of people bringing cases that take gigantic assets from the working and give them to the idle. The prisons are overloaded and innocent men are punished while the wicked go free. The average American youth believes shoplifting isn't wrong if its from a large corporation. Honesty and integrity is regarded as foolishness as parents lie in front of their kids. Marriage is a joke. Is there anything sacred anymore? Great pestilence and war continually seems to sweep over mankind. The 20th Century definitely showed wars of more than Biblical proportion. I think it laughable that some people pretend the bad times haven't began yet, they must be very blessed. Our grandparents didn't waste money on locks, we now spend hundreds a month on alarm systems, safes, and insurance and still get robbed. I've had my car broken into more than once, my business broken into, countless shoplifters in my business (parents stealing for themselves while their younger children cry when they are arrested), violence against my family and friends, thieves at my home, countless friends involved in drugs from just dabbling to DEAD, and worst of all, my Dad was murdered with a gun by theives when I was six years old (I am the oldest of three). I could go on. I am privileged to be a white American and have lived in decent suburbian places most of my life. All of this wickedness I have seen and I am only 30 years old. I can't imagine what kids in 3rd world countries see. THIS WORLD IS WICKED MAN! RIPE! What are we going to do to save our kids? EVERYTHING WE CAN. Follow every word that proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God and stand in Holy Places, because He is going to wreck the kingdom of the Devil. Fear not, be of good cheer. But my estimation is that those witnesses will be largely rejected. Despite the war and destrution, the plagues and pestilence, there will only be few who will receive their testimony. Just as the millions today who think that the destruction among us is only a coincidence, only natural, it is just too hard to acknowledge the hand of God in all things. A scientific explanation does away with it and those that believe such 'foolishness' are to be scorned and joked about. Ah, I just wanna weep. No wonder the prophets who saw the whole of it did. -a-train

The Gospel is the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, that Jesus Christ came and ministered among men performing mighty miracles, was rejected and crucified, propitiated an infinite Atonement for all of mankind giving His own life, and rose again the third day in a glorious resurrection and ascended to Heaven and stands there in the throne of God with His Father for ever and ever. This is the Gospel and all we do and teach is based on this. All principles and ordinances within the Church are appendages to this and all together make up the 'fulness of the gospel'. Go to LDS.org and you can read a lot on the topic. Better yet, talk to the local missionaries. -a-train

It is interesting to see the unfolding of events in Jerusalem. As I'm certain everyone is aware, D&C 76:15 which was given in March 1832 says: "They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers." The destruction of Jerusalem was around 1720 years before Joseph Smith's birth, but the time of the rebuilding of Jerusalem came only 100 years after his death. William Wallace Smith, Joseph Smith's grandson, lived to witness the rebuilding. I poked around the net and this is a hotly and widely debated topic throughout the Christian world; the Church and Israel, The Old and New Testament, Groups of Christian Witnesses, resurrected ancient Prophets such as Enoch and Elias, man you name it, it has been considered. Although it is yet illegal to proselyte in Israel, the Church has become so welcome there that President Hinkley was virtually begged to send students back after a period wherein security and safety issues caused Church leaders to withdraw BYU Jerusalem students. (www.ynetnews.com) My personal opinion is that the time will come that the Church will flourish there and many Jews will accept the Gospel. A temple will be built and the people will get their endowments there. Their will be a great Jewish Priesthood body there and these two Prophets will be in their midst. Whether General Authorities or simply two Elders, it matters not in my estimation. How far out will all this be? I can at least tell you that we have the assurance from our current leaders that we will raise our children and our grandchildren. But it's coming fast. -a-train

Some believe it wrong to flip a light switch and thus create a spark of flame on the Sabbath. We can see the accusations made against the Savior in situations like that in Matthew 12 or Mark 2 wherein His disciples plucked corn, or Mark 3 wherein He healed on the Sabbath. All of which considered only the physical actions and their relation to the Law of Moses and the Hedge; these made no account of the spiritual implications or ramifications of such. The truth is that the Sabbath of the Law of Moses has been fulfilled and the law of carnal commandments is not to be sought after, but the New Sabbath is a spiritual one. It matters not what physical things we do or touch, it only matters that whatever we do is the work of the LORD and of sacrifice, that we do nothing to profit ourselves. The Mosiac Sabbath pointed to ours today and the same blessings apply: Isaiah 58 13-14: "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." It is by giving our will over to the LORD, by sacrificing our own time and efforts, that we make the day the Sabbath and bring about a change in our heart that will cause us to delight in the LORD. D&C 59:10-13: "For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times; But remember that on this, the Lord ’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord. And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full." It is therefore difficult to make a list of things to do, and things not to do; but we must do all we do on the Sabbath in the LORD's service and in the LORD's name. -a-train

Are you referring to the two prophets in Revelation 11? -a-train

When the saints arrived in Utah and commenced the work of settling there it was not the first time to build a Zion city for many of them. The growth of the Church was well underway and many had faith that the Church would continue to grow exponentially. Also as experienced was the Church leadership especially Brigham Young. To great lengths they went in keeping the tracts of land divided well. They wanted no particular persons to accumulate any large part of the city. Real estate speculation was the issue. It would seem a no-brainer that it would appreciate when in the middle of a settlement to which thousands were surely to pour in. 'Faith' in the LORD's progress and in the growth of his Kingdom seemed to insure this value. The Brethren didn't want anyone fortunate enough to come into the valley early to sell or rent property at a premium as more and more converts came in. Such a greedy line of thinking had been previously manifested in other settlements. It is greed that has stood as the reason that the LORD has been able to bless mankind with Zion so seldom. To stand in Zion is to be of one heart and one mind. Indeed we are aware of the law of consecration. Too many men are too unwilling to impart of their substance, but would rather profit from the growth of the LORD's Kingdom than profit the Kingdom. -a-train

I DID find out that Jehovah's Witnesses believe the earth will be renewed to it's pre-fallen state to remain so eternally with all creatures, plant and animal life, and only the righteous redeemed of mankind. It will be the ultimate Paradise for mankind, and not Heaven. They believe the unrighteous will not go to any sort of/place of punishment, but will be totally annihilated. Connected with this, they reject any notion of a spirit or immortal soul of man, but attribute all the mind, spirit, and essence of man to the body only. As such, they believe that at death, we are completely disassembled and have no continuing awareness or consciousness. Their view is that only the saved will be resurrected at which point their consciousness will be renewed and therefore the period between death and resurrection will appear to them as instantaneous. They base all of this on their interpretation of their own translation of the Bible (no other sources). The authority on such is vested in a group of "Anointed" persons believed to be constituents of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation which will be the exclusive partakers of Heavenly Paradise. This group spends their time engaged in scripture study and in releasing pronouncements of new discoveries based on the scriptures (the most recent of which is the proclamation that the gospel preached to all the world as spoken of by Christ in Matt 24:14 has just been fulfilled) from 'Bethel', which is the organization's headquarters in Brooklyn New York. While they believe the group to receive divine inspiration in interpreting the Scriptures, they do not attribute to them visions or extra-Biblical revelation. I am yet uncertain as to their understanding of whether marriages will be reunited or not, or what role resurrected mankind will play into the future. Although they insist their doctrine to be that of the Bible, it is again only so if their leaders in Brooklyn are truly inspired and indeed understand the Scripture correctly. It is this fact that continues to keep the keystone of every religion in something other than the Bible. It is interpretation that it comes down to. Any of us, including the LDS are only living the teachings of the Bible if we interpret it correctly. It is this principle that continues to show the validity of Jacob's call: "O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name." (2 Nephi 9:41) The only manner in which we can know if a given interpretation is correct is through the LORD directly. In this manner the LORD makes us each come personally to Him without the interposition of any man; otherwise, we cannot come in to the light, but will remain in the dark. -a-train

The LDS view of Adam's stewardship over the earth, his posterity, etc. is applicable to all of his posterity. His stewardship was to bring about the work of God. Indeed we believe that each of us must use our several gifts from God in His service. Now the question of whether it is a righteous desire or not to possess and accumulate great knowledge and/or power is not contingent on that knowledge or power itself, but by the desire therein and the end thereof. I once heard of a woman saying: "I want to take up the smallest particle of Heaven and from there sing praises to God's name, for I want Him to have more of Heaven, and therefore more glory." Imagine for a moment that the less power, knowledge, portion of Heaven, or whatever we receive from God, the more is left for Him and therefore the more is given to His glory. Would this not mean that it would glorify God most for us to take NO PORTION? Should we all go to hell so that He can get all glory? Is it a wise assumption to say that whatever He gives us, he no longer owns and is no longer glorified therein? I would view this concept as a virtual antithesis to the actual process of the glorification of God which is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39) The Parable of the Talents and the Parable of the Pounds are powerful assertions and typifications of our true role in the glorification of God through service (Matt 25:14-30 & Luke 19:11-27) Although with few talents we can glorify our Master with an increase, we can do more so with a greater capacity in the first place. Furthermore if we through greater effectiveness and diligence can produce a greater increase with one Pound than with less heed and labor over the same, we can therefore glorify God even more. Therefore it is written that "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48) and our mission in His service is to "magnif[y our] calling" (D&C 84:33). Therefore we should not fear the admonition of Paul to "covet earnestly the best gifts" (1 Cor. 12:31) But "beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given." (D&C 46:8) For "when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." (D&C 121:37) LDS therefore think it great righteousness for a man to take on power and wisdom from the Source of all such and to use it as directed by Him in the bringing about of the immortality and eternal life of man. To this end was Adam created and placed in the Garden, and for this purpose have we his posterity been expanded that we may eternally be "made ruler over many things". I hope this paints a little clearer picture of the LDS understanding of Exaltation. -a-train

The sites that Maureen noted are pretty compatible with what the Chaplain mentioned. It says the woman is most likely Israel, the 12 stars are the Tribes, The man-child is Christ (I doubt there be many who have a different view of the man-child; except LDS). Her sites also find the Dragon to be Satan seeking to destroy the manchild (Christ) with his fellow fallen angels seen as stars gathered by his tail. It expresses the flood as perhaps a literal flood that will wipe out Israel, but will be unsuccessful due to Divine Intervention symbolized by the wings of the great eagle. I noticed no attempt made to describe the time and times etc. The earth's help is said to further demonstrate the LORD's protection of Israel through Nature or other characteristics of the earth. The chapter is viewed as a warning to keep the commandments and stand through the turbulence described. If my abridgment of the info on the sites is in error, please forgive me (and post any corrections). Thanks Maureen for posting that. As far as I can tell it would appear that this is the current consensus among most Christians with regard to the Chapter. I was hoping to hear from LDS folks a little more. I think Joseph Smith's interpretation may have been unique. Traveler: Very good. The precept that symbolic teaching/expression can apply to many instances and can be utilized to expound upon more subject than one is not only true, but in God's Nature and practice (Can I say practice about Him? Perhaps 'method' is better.) Still, I would like to be as specific as possible about the foremost purpose of the chapter. -a-train

It means to allow others to take out their wrath on you without executing vengeance upon them. Give a place for their wrath upon you and do not seek vengeance or take to fighting. It could say "allow wrath to fall upon you." A similar verse from the Sermon on the Mount would be ridiculous out of context, Jesus said: "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil". WHAT?!?!? RESIST NOT EVIL?!?!? Here is the whole verse: "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matt. 5:39) This of course means that we are to allow others to take out their evil (their wrath) upon us without seeking vengeance. A shocking and vivid example of this was in the Anti-Nephi-Lehis who prostrated themselves in prayer as they were massacred in Alma 24. The ultimate example is that of the God of Israel, who allowed men to "judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men." (2 Nephi 19:7-10) Does this mean that we should NOT defend ourselves or our family? Absolutely NOT. Defense and revenge are entirely to different things. -a-train

PC, I can say that I am somewhat surprised to see that virtually NONE of the mainstream Christian world believes in the redemption of Adam to his state in the Garden (meaning he returns as the father of all mankind, husband of Eve, etc.). PC: What of the earth? I understand that Christians believe in the final triumph of the Kingdom of God and establishment of Jesus Christ as the ruler of all the earth, King of Kings (which LDS believe). Where is Adam in all this, will he be around (for that matter all the ancients)? And is this period to come to an end which will result in the righteous leaving the earth forever? I've heard Christian Pastors point to Thess 4:17 and say that those so caught up "to meet the Lord in the air... [to] ever be with the Lord" will go to heaven, never to return to earth. Is it interpreted by mainstream Christianity that ultimately all will leave earth, the righteous to Heaven, the wicked to Punishment, and the earth is therefore abandoned? PC: "The key question we would ask: do you have the hope that at some point in your dominion over a planet, those that reside their would worship you?" I hope to not confuse you. LDS do not believe they will get a 'dominion over a planet' per se. In Adam's position which we honor as Patriarch and Prophet, we do not worship him as we do our Father in Heaven (Adam-God-Theory people bug off!!!), which I am certain you are aware. As you probably know, D&C 76 contains a Revelation through Joseph Smith with regard to mankind's ultimate post-judgement end. It is here that it is said of those who "come forth in the resurrection of the just", "who overcome by faith" will be (here comes the controversial) "gods, even the sons of God— Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s." (58-59) "Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever." (61-62) LDS believe that those who go on to perfection and Eternal Life will forever follow the example of the Saviour and give all glory to the Father (Moses 4:2). Those who are sanctified, will worship God, and the Lamb, forever and ever. (D&C 76:21) The Kingdom in which these dwell is here designated as the Celestial "which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever." (D&C 76:92) The answer to your question is that those who DO have the hope to be worshiped and who "give not glory to God" will NOT be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. For they have not remembered "seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Luke 12:31) (this is getting long, sorry) If you haven't heard the LDS understanding of Luke 20:27-38/Mark 12:18-27 concerning the Sadducees' question and the Saviour's answer let me know I'll get you up to speed. If you have, then cool. PC:"Your argument that God's orginal plan was for an eternal marriage with dominion over the earth is intriguing, and new to me." Again, sorry if I am confusing things, but LDS actually don't believe that this was the LORD'S intention, at least in those terms. LDS believe "to bring about [the LORD's] eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter." (2 Nephi 2:15) "And now behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." (2 Nephi 2:22-27) this is super long and I am super sorry Thus, "it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so... ...righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." (2 Nephi 2:11-12) Therefore, LDS Believe that the fall was a necessary and pre-conceived part of God's Plan. He used Satan to bring it about, wherefore even Satan in all his rebellion still serves to bring to pass the LORD's purposes, even as they who did crucify our LORD. What was the purpose of the fall? To teach man good from evil so that they could "act for themselves". It also instituted the principle of faith. Man needed no faith while standing in the light of God's presence, but it is here in the dark and dreary world that we learn this great 1st principle of the Gospel, faith in the LORD Jesus Christ. We believe that Adam and Eve will be resurrected to immortality and will again be on this earth with its renewed Paradisical Glory living under the personal reign of Christ (10th Article of Faith). Adam will stand again as the Great Patriarch of the human family and not only will he and his seed be redeemed from hell, but all Spiritual Death, Physical Death, and even his marriage to Eve, the mother of all living will be redeemed. All of Adam and Eve's posterity will be resurrected and have the ability through the Atonement of Christ to live here also and posess the same benefits of the Atonement as I've mentioned above. Perhaps I should have just directed you to 2 Nephi Chapter 2, the whole chapter is mainly on the subject. OK, That's long enough. GOD Bless -a-train

OK, this could get real interesting fast, or just flop. Although I have my own understanding of it and some references to study, I want to get some impressions about Revelation Chapter 12. There is a woman clothed with the sun, her man child, the dragon, a flood, the earth, a wilderness, lots of symbols. I'd like to see what everyone's two cents are on this Chapter, I love this one. Thanks God Bless -a-train

We cannot sit back and expect the LORD to just reveal away without lifting a page of the records that have been handed down to us through hardship, trial, persecution, and great trembling before God. "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17) The worst offence of such thinking is in those who say: "LORD, if it be not thy will, stop me now, but if it's OK, I'm gonna [insert selfish act here]." Of course, there is the much more direct statement from the LORD to Oliver Cowdery regarding revelation: "Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong..." (D&C 9:7-9) Personal Revelation is not only essential to a man's salvation, but in a way, Personal Revelation IS eternal life, as the Savior said to the Father: "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) I'm agreein' with the Chaplain on this one, "for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." (Ether 12:6) God Bless -adrian PS, The original post directly referred to the scriptures, I think PC bore his own tesimony to the truthfulness of the statement.

Traveler, Please do not misunderstand. I am NOT looking for errors or misunderstandings. This is NOT an attempt to anti mainstream Christianity. I am NOT writing a research paper or book on 'the evils of Christian philosophy'. I highly respect the scholarship, wisdom, and faith of the better Christian Theologians, especially those known as the Church Fathers. I DO NOT consider them wicked and/or deceitful. When considering the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Speaking in Tongues, Baptism, and virtually any other topic dealing with the Scriptures, we can get specific, authoritative pronouncements from various mainstream Christian faiths on the matter. All I am asking is: Is there such a pronouncement from any of the various denominations of mainstream Christianity on the subject I have mentioned? I am NOT looking for any personal opinion. I am NOT looking to debate the topic. I AM ONLY looking to see if anyone is aware of any creed, discussion, pronouncement, or statement from any authoritative mainstream Christian source on the topic. You see, I could jump to a conclusion based on the statements I mentioned made by anti's about the LDS "getting there own planet". I could automatically assume the mainstream Christian answers to the questions I asked, but I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. I want to know what would be considered by various Christian Authorities to be the Orthodox answer to those questions. I honestly don't know. For me, the matter is very difficult to put into a nutshell and that may be why it is hard for me to find what I am looking for. Perhaps if anyone knows a better way to ask what I am asking? Help! Thanks. -a-train

Hey, Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate it all. My purpose in asking this is that I want to know if there is any common idea or at least a few common ideas about man's pre-fallen state in the Garden among the various Christian faiths. Growing up LDS, I have often heard: "Mormon's believe that they will get their own planet if they go to heaven. HAHA! Those idiots!" or "Those silly Mormon's think they will have 'celestial sex' and have millions of kids for eternities on their own planet!" Though I have never heard this specific language within the LDS Church, I can see that their expressions are in reference to Eternal Progression or the power of those who overcome this world to "sit with [God] in [His] throne" (Rev. 3:21) and Eternal Marriage, etc. Still, it is interesting that the mockers would state the concept this way, because the very first chapter of the Bible tells us that God made man in his own image and gave him a planet on which to dwell saying: "let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Gen 1:26) God then gave his first commandment to man: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:28) Perhaps the masses of Christianity don't see this my way, but it appears to me that the genesis story is a direct case where a man was given his own planet (Although under the authority of God; I think the antis would say the LDS believe they will someday be on their own without being under God's Authority, which again is something I have never seen taught by the LDS) and commanded to people it with his own children. I guess I am trying to figure out how the Christian masses see this. Although I can understand that they think it crazy that anyone but Adam would have this experience (and of course, LDS don't teach that the saved will become 'Adams' to other, newer, planets) it still bothers me that the concept that such would happen to any man seems completely outrages and idle to most. Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were asked to live in eternal felicity and faithfulness to each other and God in a state of Matrimony as Provided by Him, multiplying and having dominion over the earth, wouldn't that be 'Eternal Marriage'? Do Christians believe that they were not married? "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." (Gen 2:25) I guess I am trying to understand what the various Christian thoughts on Adam's proposed term or license was for his marriage to Eve and dominion over the Earth. Do most Christians think that this was already planned by God from the beginning to be only temporary? Is the possiblity for Adam to return to such a state lost forever? Is this the definition of the Fall? I mean, not only did Adam lose his at one-ment with God, but his immortality, his dominion over the earth, his wife, the whole package? most importantly: Do most Christians believe Adam will get all this back as a result of the Atonement? If Adam will NOT get this back, does this mean that the redemption of Christ will only redeem Adam with respect to damnation from hell, but will not totally redeem him from the Fall, or the various things he lost through the Fall? This is what I am trying to get a handle on. For the most part, I have been able to find reasons or doctrines or whatever to explain almost all the differences between LDS and the Christian masses, but this one is something I cannot seem to find anything on. I appreciate opinions, but I am looking for the more authoritative teachings of mainstream Christian teachers on the subject. Thanks everyone. If you have any ideas of where I can see the main-stream Christian concepts here, I would appreciate it. Thanks again. God Bless -a-train

Hear Hear!!! Spoken like a Mormon. ABSOLUTELY!!!! I think many LDS misunderstand the 'translated correctly' statement and confuse it with the statement that: "they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:26-28) So there is more than one issue. The first is that books that were indeed scripture, inspired of God, were not cannonized and are therefore not in our Bibles at all, the second is the translation of what books ARE cannonized and in our Bibles has come into question. If you study the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, you find relatively few changes and many with only subtle or minor implications. Athough certain areas show serious change, the vast majority of the text was believed by the Prophet to be correct as is. I personally agree. I think that from the beginning, the greater issue as taught by Joseph Smith and all the LDS Prophets is that of those things which were lost and therefore have not come down to us. We love and cherish the Biblical books that have come down to us, but we acknowledge that they do not contain all of the precepts known and taught by the Apostles of Christ in the primitive Church. This is the very reason a RESTORATION was necessary. -a-train

What are the 40 words and what do they say? Are there other examples? Almost everything I seem to find both in the library and online seems to go out of it's way to demonstrate how precise the text is with the current Bible and ALWAYS mentions how differences are nothing more than virtually insignificant. Any websites? -a-train BTW, there is a DSS exhibition here in KCMO right now and my wife and I are planning on visiting. A local radio interview with the managers of this show answered many questions about what is here. It's only a small fraction of what was found, but a whole show is built to demonstrate the total find, its history, and implications. The question as to what was different about what was found in the scrolls compared with current Bibles was posted to the panel on the radio and they gave very little example and stated that differences were mainly inconsequential. Where can one see these differences?

Actually, Mormons believe the Bible whole-heartedly with very little disagreement with the text. LDS have an extremely precise system for knowing the proper and original meaning for specific verses that have been damaged. Example: Paul's vision as recorded in Acts 9:7 tells us his associates "stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." When Paul recounted the event in Acts 22:9 he says they: "saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." Uh, wait a minute Paul did they hear the voice or not? Did Paul not have his story straight? Is the whole book of Acts flawed? NO!! Paul was a righteous teacher of the Gospel and the account is true, but there is an obvious flaw in the text we have received. Joseph Smith clarified that Acts 9:7 should read: "And they who were journeying with him saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him who spake to him." Clarifications such as this are footnoted in LDS editions of the scriptures as well as cross-references throughout the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Go to the LDS.org website and you can read the Bible right there with all the footnotes in the text. -a-train

"From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled." -The Prophet Joseph Smith (TOTPJS p. 10-11; D.H.C. 1:245. Feb. 16, 1832) I think the Dead Sea Scrolls have, as celebrated by even us LDS, shown that little perversion of the text has been accomplished since the 2nd Century. The notion that pollution throughout the translations over the centuries afterward, while not flatly untrue, is now proven to be minimal at best. Clearly however, Joseph Smith didn't make that claim, but as early as Feb. 1832 stated the problems arose "before it was compiled", which unforunately points to those more closely related to the recipients of the original texts. Does that mean Apostasy? -a-train

I mean the early Christian Councils like the Nicean and etc. I am asking about the opinion of the Christian Fathers or any Christian Theologians through the ages. I am NOT asking about ideas on the spiritual pre-mortal existance of man. I AM asking about the state of Adam and Even after the Creation but before the Fall. For instance how would they answer this: "Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?" Anyone, especially our NON-LDS regulars here, know about NON-LDS Christian views on this topic? Any sites or books or forums? I'm asking around and searching, but coming up with a whollatta notta on this enchilada. -a-train

Anyone have any good resources to find various Christian discussion or writings that deal with the pre-fallen state of Adam (mankind)? I want to know what various Christians/Theologians think/thought. While I'm sure opinions will differ, I am wondering what ideas are out there. I know what the LDS believe, but I am having trouble finding anything that will tell me what the various theologians over the centuries have discussed, or what is currently believed throughout Christianity (aside from friends from various denominations who mostly have little answers; most of which have never considered the topic nor heard it in Sunday School). I want to know thoughts on this: What are the main differences between man's state before and after the fall? How long was man to stay 'unfallen'? If there had not been a fall, what would life be like today (who would be here, trillions of immortal children of Adam and Eve)? What was the fall? What caused the fall? Etc. Anyone know what's out there? Was this discussed at any of the early councils? Thanks. -a-train

Mormons believe that after the primitive church was established, that a "new gospel" or "other gospel" was taught and believed by many and is still in practice today. This is not a specific doctrine or message, any supposed "gospel" that is not the TRUE gospel is "another gospel". We believe that the world put man's theology and philosophy before the LORD's word. Various creeds, created by men, not founded in scripture are taught and believed throughout Christianity even unto this day. At the time of Joseph Smith, no man possessed a true knowledge of the true gospel (however, this does NOT condemn those who died without such knowledge to hell, that is another topic). A Restoration was necessary. Thus the LORD put forth a new Dispensation of the gospel. To Joseph Smith He revealed the answers to many questions that have been debated throughout Christian history. The oneness of the Godhead, the necessity of Baptism, the mode of Baptism, Papacy, the Resurrection, etc., etc. All of these things were clarified and revealed by the LORD with the coming forth of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. Therefore, LDS believe that the Revealed Gospel delivered to Joseph Smith was and is the original Gospel of Jesus Christ, and those "other gospels" that are preached among men to this day are those spoken of by Paul. LDS believe that all the "theology" that Christ taught was "Mormon". In other words, LDS people get their concept of God from the scriptures, including and especially the Bible. In short, Jesus taught "Mormon theology" everywhere He taught. It's in the Bible. God Bless -a-train