Josiah

I'm not sure wherein we feel so comfortable entirely denying our agency in this matter.
 
Is not agency the right to choose eternal life or eternal damnation?
 
Do we not have agency?

Making it to the Celestial Kingdom is a choice. It's not like winning the lottery.

If you take care of His loved ones, then He takes care of yours.
 
That doesn't mean she won't make bad decisions, but following her would not change that. You will do more good for her and for yourself in the service of the Savior.

If you take care of His loved ones, then He takes care of yours.
 
That doesn't mean she won't make bad decisions, but following her would not change that. You will do more good for her and for yourself in the service of the Savior.

If you take care of His loved ones, then He takes care of yours.
 
That doesn't mean she won't make bad decisions, but following her would not change that. You will do more good for her and for yourself in the service of the Savior.

Lead Kindly Light, perhaps? I love that hymn and find it very soothing, even when I don't want to be soothed. 
 
Are you looking for any instrumental song ideas, or just ones to be sung?
 
So sorry for your loss, I hope the plans come together smoothly and that her family are able to find the comfort they so need.

Members who imply that you do not belong deserve a kick in the pants!

This part, from a teen/young adult perspective:
 
-Don't ask your parents to borrow their car before you have earned a license. The answer will be no.
-General rule: you can only use the car to the degree that your parents can trust you.
-Be willing to do your part to help maintain the car and put gas in it as needed.
-Being willing to use it to drive your brothers and sisters around or do other things for your parents also really helps.
-Never do stupid things with your parents' car.
-The more you use the car well, the more you'll get to use it.
-Always say thank you.
 
Who knew my parents were teaching me about spiritual gifts all along?   

Read this great article on faith and grace, etc. It helped me in my ever ongoing quest to increase my understanding of faith and other related topics. It also addresses some of the conflicting ideas I've seen expressed here in this forum. So I thought I'd share it for discussion and enlightenment purposes.
 
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/2015/08/necessary-background-on-grace-faith-works-law-justification-for-the-coming-lds-gospel-doctrine-discussions/
 
It's a bit of a read, but well worth it.

Hi BladeMoses! It's good to have you here.
 
I'm very excited to hear about your new-found convictions and enthusiasm!  First off, I highly recommend you contact the missionaries nearest you and begin talking with them on a regular basis. The missionaries can be contacted here, or more reliably at local church services or through any friends you may have who are members. They will help you understand the basics of our faith, answer questions, and most importantly, show you what you need to do to build your relationship with Jesus Christ. If you do your part, God will help you know and feel the truthfulness of what you will learn and do.
 
You are also more than welcome to attend a church service. This website will help you find the closest meetinghouse, and let you know what time the service starts. The main meeting (called sacrament meeting) lasts a little over an hour. Two additional classes are also available and last about an hour each.
 
My relationship with Jesus Christ is everything to me. His message and gospel are absolutely life-changing, and are found in this church. I know it to be true, and I know that you can know too! It will be the best thing you ever found. There are some great things ahead for you! I wish you all the best.  :)
 
---
 
P.S: You'll learn the most by meeting with the missionaries and following their instructions, but if you're dying for more to look at in the meantime, I have a couple suggestions:
 
The basics of the basics: https://www.mormon.org/
The Book of Mormon: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng - alternately, you can always just get the app.
General Conference (teachings of modern prophets): https://www.lds.org/general-conference/sessions/2015/04?lang=eng
Mormon Messages (inspiring videos): https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/series/mormon-messages

There are many kingdoms within one higher (celestial) order of kingdoms.

This part, from a teen/young adult perspective:
 
-Don't ask your parents to borrow their car before you have earned a license. The answer will be no.
-General rule: you can only use the car to the degree that your parents can trust you.
-Be willing to do your part to help maintain the car and put gas in it as needed.
-Being willing to use it to drive your brothers and sisters around or do other things for your parents also really helps.
-Never do stupid things with your parents' car.
-The more you use the car well, the more you'll get to use it.
-Always say thank you.
 
Who knew my parents were teaching me about spiritual gifts all along?   

Amen.
 
Here is one of the few times I don't agree with you.
 
Was it foolishness for Solomon to ask for wisdom? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-kgs/3.9-12?lang=eng#8
...God was pleased with the request, and granted it.
 
Did Paul, Joseph, and Moroni reveal foolishness?
 
1 Corinthians 14 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
 
D&C 46 But ye are commanded in all things to aask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all bholiness of heart, walking uprightly before me...and that ye may not be deceived aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;
 
Moroni 7: Wherefore, my beloved brethren, apray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall cbe like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be dpurified even as he is pure. Amen.
 
Based on the above, I respectfully submit that we are invited to actively seek the gifts God wishes to grant each, rather than passively waiting for them to appear.

Here is the cold hard truth:
 
You made temple covenants.  The law of chastity does not differentiate between married or single people.  You served a mission.  You taught people the law of chastity.  Your covenants are binding, recommend or not.  You have clearly and unmistakably broken those covenants and mocked that which is most holy.  This isn't sin like having a coffee, not paying tithing, or even watching some porn.  It is serious, grievous sin.  Excommunication is a very real possibility.
 
My brother, with all that being said, fear not and repent.  Call your Bishop.  Don't give a darn about what other people might think or what they might say.  If they think less of you because of this then they have committed the greater sin, not you!  Expect your friends and other members to be helpful, kind, and nothing but supportive.  If they are not, then ignore them.
  
 
 
 
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."  Isaiah 1:18
 
Do you want that relationship and testimony of Christ and the Holy Ghost?  Jesus Christ is right next to you with his arms outstretched.  Swallow your pride and call your Bishop right now.  I mean right now.  I don't care if it's 3 am where you're at.  This can't wait.  The sooner repentance is started the sooner you will begin to heal.  It will be humbling, painful, and difficult, but your bishop, stake president, and most importantly, your elder brother Jesus Christ will help you and comfort you.
 
If you choose to be willing and obedient, then great things await.  As you progress through repentance, remember to forgive yourself!!  Move ahead and don't dwell on the past.  If you exercise humble faith you can still achieve the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom.  From Paul to the Philippians:
 
this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 
Get this behind you.  So you slipped up.  Everyone does in all different ways.  Take the Lord's outstretched hand, get up off the ground, dust yourself off, smile, and move on.  Put this in your past.  Call your Bishop.
 
If you do not have a desire to change (repent), then there is nothing anyone can do for you.  Nothing.

It appears that God holds a different opinion. To Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, God commanded:
 
Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people. And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father! You may claim that this was specific to Oliver and David, and we shouldn't apply it to ourselves. If this were the only scriptural witness, perhaps you would have a point. But the Lord is very explicit in a later section: Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor. For those who care to look, the scriptures are filled with the injunction that we declare repentance to our fellow man. Nowhere is there the caveat that "you can only declare repentance when you yourself have been guilty of that sin and have somehow managed to overcome it." Were that true, Jesus Christ himself would have been unjustified in his mortal ministry. Instead of inventing our own rules as we go along, we would always do better to learn and follow the voice of God.

This part, from a teen/young adult perspective:
 
-Don't ask your parents to borrow their car before you have earned a license. The answer will be no.
-General rule: you can only use the car to the degree that your parents can trust you.
-Be willing to do your part to help maintain the car and put gas in it as needed.
-Being willing to use it to drive your brothers and sisters around or do other things for your parents also really helps.
-Never do stupid things with your parents' car.
-The more you use the car well, the more you'll get to use it.
-Always say thank you.
 
Who knew my parents were teaching me about spiritual gifts all along?   

In the general sense, it was clear enough for me to tell.  You did seem to be hinting that they were holding back on homosexuality, but you also plainly said that you weren't criticizing their methods, and that the relevant issue there was the perception the rest of us have on their approach. You also made it obvious that you didn't fully endorse what the articles said. My post was not meant to imply that you disagreed - just to clarify where I saw the problem and where I did not. This was done in light of previous discussion on the thread rather than directed at you. I apologize if it came across as meaning anything else.
 
Also, no rush on responding. I could use the time to think this one over anyway. 

That might be the recent mission talking in my case. It's a minority, but there are definitely missionaries who are driven to declare repentance by other stuff. I suppose I'm just used to making the point. Anyway, I do agree that the perception is out there, and applied to members as a whole it doesn't make sense. Still, when someone tells me for my own good that I should change, I admit that my knee-jerk reaction isn't to think, "Wow, they really care about me!" I tend to get a little annoyed instead. Illogical as it is, it's the natural man in action. Maybe a more relevant comment would be that we should generally try to make sure our love is very clearly shown both before and after an invitation to change, as per the instruction given in section 121.
 
 
That clarifies your meaning a bit for me. I do see that tendency in the membership as a whole, and also very often in myself when someone close to me needs a firm nudge in the right direction. In that context, the reason for the decline might be our fear, which has been nurtured by the recent cultural atmosphere promoting tolerance and acceptance of sin (bad) in addition to the sinner (not so bad). I would tend to disagree with the idea that the same thing is happening with our church leaders on a large scale, and I don't view most* of what you've shared as evidence that it is (*a few tidbits do catch my interest, and for now I have a vague sense that it does signify something, but that's for another post).
 
 
TFP, always focusing on insignificant details. That doesn't help, you know. 
 
Alright, you got me. But my point was that parts 1 and 2 are both necessary for part 3 to happen in a meaningful way. Do we tend to focus on part 1 (make absolutely sure they/we recognize the problem) to the extent that we forget part 2? Particularly when we're emotionally invested somehow in the issue at hand, I think we do. Of course, as you said, we also tend to do the opposite - probably when we're emotionally invested in the relationship, or just downright afraid.
 
 
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

A few thoughts:
 
#1: You can cry repentance with boldness and sharpness, but you can also do it with gentleness and meekness. Both can be effective, both encourage people to turn to Christ and change, and therefore both qualify as crying repentance.
#2: Sometimes people need it given to them straight to snap them out of their sense of carnal security, and other times people have simply lost hope, and need comfort and peace rather than confrontation. The Savior used both methods, according to the individual needs of those He taught. There's no sense trying to discuss which is the "better" method of crying repentance.
#3: As Christ did, we are to rely on the Spirit to know what method to use at what time (see D&C 121:41-43).
#4: Love is a prerequisite to crying repentance in either form. Whether you choose to be direct or to give support and understanding, it won't work if charity isn't behind it.
 
Why the decline of declaring repentance (in the more direct way)? Perhaps the Lord feels that right now, we as a church need the softer method, and so He has directed our leaders accordingly. But they're still crying repentance. Alma needed both to recognize his failings and to find the hope to turn to the Savior as part of his repentance process. I wonder if we sometimes place too much emphasis on the former, and not enough on the latter.
 
Regarding homosexuality and the OP links - I'll admit I fail to see how someone necessarily must eliminate the temptation of homosexuality in order to repent. I'm not saying it's impossible to do this or that it shouldn't be a goal, but what does someone really need to do to repent? Stop sinful actions? Absolutely. Change thought patterns? Of course. Align the true desires of their hearts with God's will? Crucial. But end temptation? I thought that being tempted by something, in and of itself, isn't sin, and our temptations and weaknesses may not always change in this life. If that's the case, isn't it appropriate to focus primarily on ending the behavior, coming unto Christ, and changing the heart instead? Or am I mistaken here?

Is it possible, after much sincere prayer, for...
-Person 1 to be prompted to not drink caffeinated soda,
-Person 2 to be prompted to not drink ANY soda, and,
-Person 3 to be prompted that soda, caffeinated or otherwise, is fine, but only in moderation,
 
...and for all of them to be right? 
 
I think it is.

This is a great question. In my view, it's probably closer to the core of the discussion than we've been so far, so I want to talk about this point before I get to anything else you posted. I hope I can be clear.
 
I think there's a difference between someone's core desires, or desires of the heart, as opposed to the more fleeting desires that come from day to day. They are closely related and deeply influenced by one another, but I still see them as distinct (I'll admit that I could be wrong in that view - your thoughts are welcome as always). Those Lamanites found an entirely new perspective and purpose, and it is evident based on their later actions that in their hearts they loved their Father and wanted nothing more than to do His will. But I don't buy that they never faced another temptation in their lives, and temptation can't exist without desire. It's just that those relatively superficial desires were overruled by the more meaningful desires of the heart. Why? They repented.
 
So when we talk about repenting of, say, homosexuality, I would expect that the desire to submit to the will of the Father will develop and grow in the heart. I expect that, consequently, the desire to say, do, think, or be homosexual in any way will be driven out of the heart. But I also expect that the body and mind are used to doing things a certain way, and so the superficial desires will still go on for a while - even a lifetime in many cases - before they are actually removed. These desires are enough to enable temptation until they are gone. But the pain of not satisfying those sinful desires is swallowed up in the joy that is found in satisfying the righteous desires of our hearts - if repentance is complete and the temptation is ignored.
 
 
 
I'm with you here. I agree with the rest of this first section as well, just using this sentence as a sort of summary. Publicly declaring in detail our struggles with temptation and how we're overcoming them and still remaining faithful is pride/boasting at best, if not holding on to the sin in our hearts as part of who we are (the "I am ____" phrase).
 
 
I particularly like the last paragraph - I feel like I understand that principle a lot more fully having seen it written out this way. 
 
I just want to distinguish between the process of repentance (the things we do: controlling thoughts, focusing on positive desires rather than sinful ones, stopping unrighteous behavior, etc) and the fruits of repentance (including the change of heart itself, the reduction and eventual end of temptation, etc.) The process is within our direct control. While we certainly need the enabling power of the Atonement to do so, we are the ones responsible to make it happen. The fruits come from the Savior, and while I believe the change of heart is given to us rather quickly to the degree that we truly repent, I don't feel that the same is immediately true of eliminating temptation. This seems to me to be done on the Lord's timetable so that we may continue to learn to overcome temptation, and perhaps for other wise purposes.
 
Essentially, whether the topic is homosexuality or any other sin, I don't like to see much focus placed on what's not in our direct control (the temptation).

In the general sense, it was clear enough for me to tell.  You did seem to be hinting that they were holding back on homosexuality, but you also plainly said that you weren't criticizing their methods, and that the relevant issue there was the perception the rest of us have on their approach. You also made it obvious that you didn't fully endorse what the articles said. My post was not meant to imply that you disagreed - just to clarify where I saw the problem and where I did not. This was done in light of previous discussion on the thread rather than directed at you. I apologize if it came across as meaning anything else.
 
Also, no rush on responding. I could use the time to think this one over anyway. 

That might be the recent mission talking in my case. It's a minority, but there are definitely missionaries who are driven to declare repentance by other stuff. I suppose I'm just used to making the point. Anyway, I do agree that the perception is out there, and applied to members as a whole it doesn't make sense. Still, when someone tells me for my own good that I should change, I admit that my knee-jerk reaction isn't to think, "Wow, they really care about me!" I tend to get a little annoyed instead. Illogical as it is, it's the natural man in action. Maybe a more relevant comment would be that we should generally try to make sure our love is very clearly shown both before and after an invitation to change, as per the instruction given in section 121.
 
 
That clarifies your meaning a bit for me. I do see that tendency in the membership as a whole, and also very often in myself when someone close to me needs a firm nudge in the right direction. In that context, the reason for the decline might be our fear, which has been nurtured by the recent cultural atmosphere promoting tolerance and acceptance of sin (bad) in addition to the sinner (not so bad). I would tend to disagree with the idea that the same thing is happening with our church leaders on a large scale, and I don't view most* of what you've shared as evidence that it is (*a few tidbits do catch my interest, and for now I have a vague sense that it does signify something, but that's for another post).
 
 
TFP, always focusing on insignificant details. That doesn't help, you know. 
 
Alright, you got me. But my point was that parts 1 and 2 are both necessary for part 3 to happen in a meaningful way. Do we tend to focus on part 1 (make absolutely sure they/we recognize the problem) to the extent that we forget part 2? Particularly when we're emotionally invested somehow in the issue at hand, I think we do. Of course, as you said, we also tend to do the opposite - probably when we're emotionally invested in the relationship, or just downright afraid.
 
 
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Josiah, good post. I'm not replying to it by way of contending -- just using your thoughts as springboards for some of mine. I'm preambling my reply so you won't read it as if I'm attacking your thoughts or something.
 
 
But there seems to be this prevailing idea out there that all us LDS folk who are interested in actually declaring repentance are doing it with no sense of love -- like it's driven by -- I have no idea. Why would I or anyone like me be driven to try and motivate people to repentance by something other than love? Some sick sense of domination or... I just don't get it. I mean, I'm sure there are some who are like that. But this idea that we, as a people, are like the Pharisees is just sort of silly. The times are not equivalent. The Pharisees were a political and social power that held respect and great influence. They were motivated by this. Going out and crying repentance to people in our times hardly brings the same. Mostly all it brings is revulsion. For the most part, I have a hard time seeing people as willing to put up with the result of declaring repentance unless they're truly motivated by love and humility. Because all you really get, socially speaking, from doing so is a whole lot of people telling you how horrible, mean, judgmental, hateful and intolerant you are. Nobody thinks you're "cool" for doing so.
 
 
In the more direct way is a mislead to the discussion. I entirely agree that there are means of calling to repentance that are not direct. And there was never any intention behind the thread that these didn't count or that they indicate a problem, or that that is the decline I am speaking of.  It is not. I am talking about a literal decline that I have witnessed. Literally, there seems to be a great deal of simply letting people be (meaning sin) with the only response being "love" (which translates to doing nothing but just exuding some ethereal sense of "I love you" out there into the cosmos) and "support" (which translates to all sorts of things that are about as from from declaring repentance as you can get).
 
 
But what about the third part? Actually...you know...changing? The meaning of repentance?
 
 
This is a much broader discussion (and, honestly, where I kind of hoped the thread would go a bit), and I want to address it, but don't have the time right now. Look for a detailed response later.

A few thoughts:
 
#1: You can cry repentance with boldness and sharpness, but you can also do it with gentleness and meekness. Both can be effective, both encourage people to turn to Christ and change, and therefore both qualify as crying repentance.
#2: Sometimes people need it given to them straight to snap them out of their sense of carnal security, and other times people have simply lost hope, and need comfort and peace rather than confrontation. The Savior used both methods, according to the individual needs of those He taught. There's no sense trying to discuss which is the "better" method of crying repentance.
#3: As Christ did, we are to rely on the Spirit to know what method to use at what time (see D&C 121:41-43).
#4: Love is a prerequisite to crying repentance in either form. Whether you choose to be direct or to give support and understanding, it won't work if charity isn't behind it.
 
Why the decline of declaring repentance (in the more direct way)? Perhaps the Lord feels that right now, we as a church need the softer method, and so He has directed our leaders accordingly. But they're still crying repentance. Alma needed both to recognize his failings and to find the hope to turn to the Savior as part of his repentance process. I wonder if we sometimes place too much emphasis on the former, and not enough on the latter.
 
Regarding homosexuality and the OP links - I'll admit I fail to see how someone necessarily must eliminate the temptation of homosexuality in order to repent. I'm not saying it's impossible to do this or that it shouldn't be a goal, but what does someone really need to do to repent? Stop sinful actions? Absolutely. Change thought patterns? Of course. Align the true desires of their hearts with God's will? Crucial. But end temptation? I thought that being tempted by something, in and of itself, isn't sin, and our temptations and weaknesses may not always change in this life. If that's the case, isn't it appropriate to focus primarily on ending the behavior, coming unto Christ, and changing the heart instead? Or am I mistaken here?