laronius

This has always been a tough one for me, not that someone would lose their exaltation because of adultery and murder. That's expected. But that someone that seemed so good could fall so far. Did he really change that much or was the young faithful David not the "real" David?

Under the influence of the Father he had access to all knowledge, as needed. So I think it would be hard to judge what was him personally and what was external divine influence.

I think you have presented a very feasible explanation for that gulf. When we consider that our progression continues after this life , trajectory takes on increased significance because of the increasing gap that comes with time if we choose not to wholly submit to the Lord. I think your use of the term "willing" is equally significant and I think is an antithesis to the principle of damnation, which we could define as being unwilling. Our degree of willingness does not define our final state but it is a precursor to it. And any amount of unwillingness on our part can have an increasingly damning effect in the eternities. Kind of puts the things of this life in perspective. I appreciate your comments @CV75.

So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

So do you feel that those towards the top of the Terrestrial Kingdom are not very far away (obedience/glory wise) from those in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom?

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial? It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully. I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. These verses have always struck a cord with me. When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world, they longed to return home again, back into God's presence. In the scriptures we read of this longing for a home (promised land) over and over again. But receiving a land of inheritance is only the beginning. It's not truly home until God resides there as well, in other words, Zion. We see the perfect example of this with Enoch. He helped create a true Home on earth and then were taken up into God's bosom. It makes me wonder what that process was like. Surely they experienced many of the same struggles that modern families and communities deal with. And yet they were able to endure and eventually overcome them.

I imagine Jacob did teach him all that but we know what Enos remembered: "the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart." I think he came to a realization of the great chasm between his lost and fallen state and where he wanted to be. Despite his father's teaching it had to seem insurmountable. I came across something yesterday that I think is applicable. Ether 12:4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God... I always figured that this word surety was just an older way of saying sure, like confident or certain. And it can be. But it also has an enhanced meaning. Surety: a person who takes responsibility for another's performance of an undertaking, for example their appearing in court or the payment of a debt. The gospel application here is pretty obvious. Christ has become surety for us, to pay a debt that is impossible for us to pay on our own. I think it was this feeling of impossibleness that weighed heavily upon Enos' mind, despite what he had been taught. But he learned that with God all things are possible, especially the most important stuff.

In fast and testimony meeting today (had stake conference last week) a sister got up and related that her parents are missionaries back in Kirtland, OH. She said that during the meeting between the churches to discuss the sale of the temple a guy in attendance from the Community of Christ was seriously opposed to the sale and really wanted to raise an objection to it. But he said the Spirit restrained him so he could not object and a voice spoke to him saying "This isn't your temple or their temple. It's my temple." Assuming that's a true account of events, it would seem that the Lord is yet mindful of these descendants of early Church members and that He cares about how they feel about these things. There may yet be a reconciliation in the future. Perhaps in Independence.

That's how it is with iniquity in general in our day. Save for a few crimes that are still socially regarded as wrong, you are not allowed to say negative things about doing wrong because that implies casting judgement on the doers of them. To do so is divisive and meanspirited, which apparently matters more than the actual doing of right or wrong. This is even starting to include being too public in one's own right actions because doing right can only be motivated by wanting to make others look bad.

Sounds kind of like Nephi retrieving the brass plates. 😃 I would have no problem with him as my bishop. The Book of Mormon is full of warrior-prophets so a warrior-bishop is not a stretch.

We know there were A LOT of plates that Mormon and Moroni had to deal with. If those plates are still on the earth then it's likely in a very concealed place like a cave or ruins that nature has covered up. So it's very possible that the gold plates were returned to that place.

Say what you will about Trump, he does indeed have many distasteful qualities. But at the end of the day the left promotes policies that are far more destructive of the family, society and the Constitution. Some of which are flat out EVIL. I personally cannot justify voting for that. There are no good options right now (at least not viable ones) so we just have to decide, policy wise, what matters most. If we can't have it all, what is at the top of the list? For me there are a few deal maker/breakers, including: They must support religious freedoms. They must not support elective abortions. They must be supportive of parent's rights in the education of their children. They must be supportive of policies that strengthen and promote the nuclear family. I'm sure there are others but these immediately come to mind. There are also many that aren't deal breakers but I still really really want. But in each of these instances Trump is far more likely than Biden (or those who pull his strings) to support these types of policies. I didn't vote for Trump the first time because of the kind of person he is but I have to admit that he acted more Conservative than any other president since Reagan and actually fulfilled some campaign promises that others only promised.

It's been a while since I've read much in the Old Testament but the story of ancient Israel being lead out of captivity, rejecting God, traveling in the wilderness for many years before entering into the promised land is a theme we find all throughout the history of God working His children. It's found all through the scriptures, in the temple, our own church history, and in our individual lives to one degree or another. We have stake conference this weekend and one of the speakers in the adult session yesterday referenced Moses ascending up into Mount Sinai to commune with God. It got me thinking about how even though they eventually got into the promised land, the real destination was always in their midst, the temple or tabernacle. And while the temple became the center of their worship they always seem to struggle with moving beyond the physical manifestations of their beliefs into the things of the Spirit. So much so that when God/Jesus in a sense came down out of the mountain to them they still wanted nothing to do with Him unless He was willing to feed them like Moses did. There are a lot of, I don't want to call them fringe benefits of the gospel because they are important, things like community and a shelter from the world and purpose, but at the end of the day we are individually being asked to ascend up into the mountain of the Lord and commune with Him. But we are sometimes content to just enjoy the manna that membership in the Church brings and ignore or procrastinate the most central point of it all, content in the idea that the promised land is some future destination, meanwhile it's in our very midst.

For those who want to believe it's close enough but like you I would think it would be a little more exacting to be a true sign.

I don't have a dog in the fight but for those who do believe it, it's not just about this eclipse but this one in conjunction with the one that happened seven years ago. For LDS believers the point where the two paths cross being in the area of Adam-ondi-Ahman gives, in their mind, additional reason to suspect something more important is happening.

Some people have indeed said that was a sign but as of yet the earthly/heavenly testimonies haven't started so that may have just been a trial run.

And even then it wasn't one of the common ones people talk about.

This is Wilford Woodruff's account of a dream/vision he had of Joseph Smith: “Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. In the night vision I saw him at the door of the temple in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said he could not stop to talk with me because he was in a hurry…. “By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. ‘Now,’ said I, ‘I want to know why you are in a hurry. I have been in a hurry all through my life; but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.’ “Joseph said: ‘I will tell you, Brother Woodruff. Every dispensation that has had the Priesthood on the earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on the earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation, and so much work has to be done, and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.’ Of course, that was satisfactory to me, but it was new doctrine to me.” I am curious to know what exactly needs to be prepared on that side of the veil before the Second Coming. There are a few things I think we learn from this experience. 1. It is definitely connected to the priesthood as it only applies to dispensations that had the priesthood. 2. The Second Coming is partially dependent upon it being completed or ready. Or at least, those who will go with him are dependent upon it. 3. The fact that this interview took place at the door of the temple in heaven would seem to imply that it is temple related. 4. It may not be just about being ready for Jesus' coming but also His reign on the earth. We know there is a lot of work for the dead taking place but that apparently will be happening all throughout the Millennium as well so I don't know that that is the reason for the hurry on the other side. Unless that work is needing to be done for specific individuals prior to the Second Coming. Maybe it's something connected with what will transpire in Adam-ondi-Ahman. It does make me wonder about the system of government that will exist during the Millennium. Christ will of course reign as King but how is the government setup under him? And will there be a separate religious leadership organization from the government body?

A lot of people are saying it's one of the signs but I have yet to see one who can say what it means. If you don't know what a sign means then it's not much of a sign. And to say it's a sign of the last days isn't telling us anything we didn't already know. But even if it's not a sign it doesn't mean the really intense parts of the last days are necessarily that far away. They could happen at any point. Though I'm guessing the really bad ones (meaning not just regional in scope) won't happen while we have missionaries spread out around the world. In D&C 88 it's after the missionaries are called home that the other forms of "testimony" will happen. That might be the first domino to fall.

I always thought it was interesting how the brethren seem to preparing to make a big deal out of the 200th anniversary of the first vision (which in it's right was perhaps the first of Second Coming appearances) but then covid happened and it seemed to overshadow that in the minds of a lot of people. I think you definitely have the proper perspective. A healthy respect for the state the world is in and perhaps the seeds of future events being planted before our eyes but not overly focusing on the negative. I especially like turning swimming pool ownership into an act of obedience to prophetic counsel. I think I need to act in faith on that too. 😃

I think we could add to your list the fact that preparation takes time and sincerity. The practically overnight conversion of certain individuals in the scriptures are certainly not the norm. The five foolish virgins had a little advanced notice but it wasn't enough to fully get ready and likely would not have lead to permanent change anyway. When the bridegroom did finally appear they weren't necessarily surprised but they were still unprepared.

That's not saying much. "My guy" presents a pretty low bar for comparison.

JS Matthew 1:48 Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. We know that if we are wise and understand the scriptures we can know the season in which Christ will return but not the specific day or hour. This verse seems to imply that even if we know the season we may still be surprised when it actually happens. It makes me wonder what the conditions will be like so as to make His coming unexpected. I was watching a YouTube video yesterday where the guy was performing some pretty serious prophetic gymnastics to make this General Conference as a possible time of His coming. While I gave him a really low overall score I did award him some difficulty points. 😃 But it did make me wonder about two different possibilities for an unexpected Second Coming. The first is that some signs are fulfilled without us fully realizing it (which this guy was relying heavily upon). The second is that certain events happen so quickly that it just catches us off guard how quickly things transpire. This second theory would seem to support the idea of a hastening and the times being cut short. While I don't think things will happen so quickly as to make this General Conference a viable candidate it does make me wonder just how quickly it could take place.

I feel the same, much too long of verses. I'm not a good singer anyway but that hymn just really taxes my vocal cords. I actually really like A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief but now that I think about it I cannot even remember the last time we've sung it at church. Maybe years. That's a shame.