zil

NOTE: I am not by any means denying that we have a big problem of women dressing, speaking, and behaving immodestly. I am not denying that this is driven by various worldly factors. I am denying that this is strictly a problem of the way women dress, speak, and behave; and that it can be solved by addressing only that side of things. If you only teach the young men that the young women ought to dress modestly, you're teaching them that their reactions to what girls wear aren't their fault cuz the girls never shoulda been wearing that in the first place. The prevalence of a problem does not, in my opinion, seem relevant. It is possible for men to be immodest, and we should teach everyone that modesty is the standard for all of us, regardless of gender. Immodesty includes appearance, speech, and behavior. Immodesty includes watching that porn made for men. Immodesty includes the ogling of men and women. Immodesty includes the tight muscle shirt intended to attract / impress the girls (even if the girls' biological reaction isn't always as strong as the male biological reaction), as well as whatever skimpy outfit the girl is wearing. I object to addressing the issue one-sided because that's part of our problem. Even the dictionary (google's in this case) contributes to the wrong opinion that only women can be modest (and therefore immodest)... Their definition of modest: A man can't dress or behave so as to avoid (or encourage, if we reverse this) impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid (or encourage...) attracting sexual attention? They certainly can. Interestingly, "immodest" is defined as "lacking humility or decency." - men (and women) can certainly be guilty of that, as well as the reverse of modest, whatever the word is for that. As I mentioned previously, I would hope that long before we get anywhere near porn, we're teaching about the sacred nature of the human body, about the importance of all of us dressing, speaking, and behaving toward ourselves and others in a way appropriate to that sacredness (and that we're not teaching that modesty is just the way women dress).

First, I'm so sorry for the trials you've had to endure. Second, be prepared: you are going to get comments about not blaming the victim. (I don't particularly want to have that discussion, I'm just saying, it's probably gonna happen.) Next, I think you might find this video (TED talk) by a man (no relation to the church) who stopped watching porn. It's an excellent video, IMO. Finally, I think unless you go with something like a burka, you're not going to find clothing that "cover everything and reveal nothing". And even then, depending on a woman's various dimensions, there may be no hiding certain attributes. Check out the "Everyday People" category of images on LDS.org. You say the church standards for what they'll publish are what we should follow. Well what they publish does not "cover everything" (*) and there's plenty "revealed". Now maybe this is just a woman's perspective, I don't know, and certainly no one in these pictures is wearing anything suggestive, but I can easily tell the women are physically women. (*) I'm a programmer. Everything is everything. All things are included in everything. Nothing is excluded from everything. So unless you define "covers everything" as "covers everything the garment covers" (or similar), your personal standards are not the same as those used in images on LDS.org...

My comments are in green As the sermon on the mount teaches us, and as Vort has already said, one's thoughts and attitudes are crucial to this virtue (well, all of them). And while clothing is one way of expressing your understanding of modesty, and might aid others in their efforts of self-control, it's not the point; the point is to keep sacred the tabernacle you were given, and to honor the tabernacles God gave others. If we could help young people understand the sacredness of the gift of a body, modesty and chastity might be easier virtues to teach.

Your link gave me an error, so just in case others need it, I used google to find a link to your quote with &r=1 on the end, and that works, so I'm linking here .... The quote you post seemed to me to be under a section specifically about pictures related to General Conference (not that it changes standards, but it provides context, as does the rest of the text surrounding the quote). Maybe the church just doesn't get photo submissions with immodest males in them, but I wanted to see what (if anything) they say about men, cuz modesty is not a female-specific problem or virtue, so it bothers me immensely when I see clothing / dress standards like the quote you posted and a complete absence of corresponding text related to males. And then the conversation goes on as if only women were (capable of being) immodest. IMO, that gap contributes to any number of problems. I also found this page: https://www.lds.org/topics/service/create/photo-standards?lang=eng which doesn't have the specifics your link did, though the standards easily cover both genders: ...going back to reading the rest of your post now.

And key to the pattern is going to God in faith, already believing, which was what Nephi did (see also Ether 12:6). Like Vort, this was the most sorrowful part for me - to see so many jump straight to doubt or worst-case, made-up scenarios instead of trusting first. I'm grateful for this reasoned, calm explanation.

Lehi, if you have time, and trust this website to have accurately rendered the various recordings of the discourse, you don't need to wait until you get back home... King Follett Discourse Recordings in Parallel

The apostles have taught that no blessing, including celestial marriage, will be denied those who didn't have the chance to receive it in this life. Searching the past few years of General Conference would find such references (though I'm not sure it would be a simple search). Past prophets have taught this too. (This is a logical conclusion given all those who have died before reaching an age when marriage was an option, and those who have died without the chance to have the Gospel in their lives.) Fortunately, Christ will be the one to decide what chances we did and did not have, and what blessings we do or do not receive. If one is worthy of a celestial marriage, but didn't have the chance to receive it in mortality, it's logical to believe that a proxy ordinance will have to be performed by a mortal (thus, in a sense, it must be done in mortality) - either before or during the millennium. Personally, I think there will be resurrected beings traveling between the spirit world and the millennial earth helping with this work.

I've heard the face-paint thing before (and heard it explained that it's basically the same as wearing a mask). (Not saying I agree or don't, just that's what I've heard said.) I've also heard it said that costumes should not be cross-gender (that is, boys / men should not be dressed in dresses; not sure how you'd interpret that for girls / women - put a girl in a 3-piece suit and she might just look like a business woman rather than a man <g>). There's nothing in Handbook 2 about this... Checking with brother about Handbook 1, please hold.... (Thank you for your patience. Your question is very important to us and will be answered in the order in which it was received.... ) And there's nothing specific in handbook 1 either. I suspect the weapon thing is due to the current culture in the world right now, and seems a bit much to me, but I also believe in following the counsel of local leaders (while at the same time believing that many of them could be a bit more organized and give more advanced notice of details like this). Searching LDS.org brings up some stuff related to dramatizations / cultural celebrations, but nothing that seems to add much (except your child shouldn't come to the party as deity).

Have you tried searching LDS.org? I found a quote from President McKay pretty quickly: Of course, I suspect this form of meditation might be more similar to what most western people think of as pondering, and not much like the various eastern traditions of meditation. I think the value of any form of meditation or pondering would depend on your intent more than the form itself.

I agree that the solution to every problem is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And yes, it's a radical, and true, idea. But I believe joining our efforts with those of people of other faiths does accomplish things (and apparently so to our leaders). Among those things are positive feelings between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others, which only helps in sharing the Gospel. Buying time is accomplishing something. Increasing the visibility and influence of those who believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ accomplishes something. All of these things and more can help people come (closer) to Christ. We can't help others unless we're among them. We can't diminish Satan's influence unless we're out there, among the same people he's trying to influence, offering a better option.

Anatess, I suspect most Mormons think of "stewardship" as described here. But regardless, your ideas make good sense. For your son's friend, you could try a Sheldonian experiment to see if positive reinforcement (via chocolate) helps...

Good points, Rhoades. The possibility that different dispensations have different ordinances is why I said "the ordinances proper for their day". I do wonder, though, if baptism isn't necessary to inherit a lower kingdom, but that the work will be done (if appropriate for the dispensation) so that one cannot claim not to have been fairly offered the needed ordinances to inherit a higher kingdom. I've always wondered about that dying before age of accountability thing - are they really just getting a free pass (which I'm fine with), or will their ordinances be taken care of by proxy (eventually), or in the millennium, as you mention? TFP has a good point here - but there's that dispensation thing again - do the ordinance requirements vary depending on the age in which you live? Not so simple as it might seem. :)

I think Paul has it covered: 1 Corinthians 2:9 - sorry, I know, not much help. :-)

Given that the Savior taught that baptism is needed, and given that we will (presumably) perform proxy work for every soul who ever lived and didn't have the ordinances proper for their day, I think it's safe to assume that baptism is indeed required for salvation.

How about by taking your own advice given earlier and serving the one who is struggling? Telling someone to stop complaining is not service. Helping them work through their problem, see things from another perspective, or find creative solutions are forms of service. (I tried posting something yesterday which I hoped would help Lily and Becca, but it hasn't been approved (yet?).) Zil

To LilyBelle00 and BeccaKirstyn: I signed up just so I could post this. I'm certain, BeccaKirstyn, you are an introvert (just one of your comments was enough to confirm that) and I think, LilyBelle00, you and/or your husband might well be too. A lot of introverts don't realize they're introverts (we've been convinced over the years to try to act like extroverts - which only works for so long). Most people are extroverts (people disagree on percents, but they agree on the "most" part) and most people (extroverts and introverts both) don't understand what makes a person an extrovert or introvert (they think it's a behavioral choice or "personality"). Learning where introversion / extroversion comes from allows you to appreciate both and figure out what you need to be both happy and successful in all your relationships - including ward activities. As a person in her 40s, I grew up in an age when introverts were treated like there was something wrong with them (and apparently some still think there is). It took a problem at work and a question from a friend to get me to go research why I am the way I am (an extreme introvert), and to realize that despite what I grew up with, there's nothing wrong with me and my introversion. Introversion is not a choice, it is not a disease, it is a matter of neurochemistry. I'm in a much better place now, as are all the people I socialize with - because I understand what's going on now. So I'm posting the best explanations I've found regarding the what it is to be an introvert vs. an extrovert in hopes that it will help you understand, explain to others, and adjust your lives such that you and those around you are all happier with your interactions: Detailed Explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5o9PcHeL0 Quick Explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZ1fPr9FJg Woman who's trying to change the way the world views introverts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 Prayer, as always, will help, but the Lord expects us to study things out, and the above videos really helped me to understand my own feelings and thereby find a path that lets me give my utmost. With love, Zil