zil

If you want to stick strictly to your calling / stewardship, the only thing I can think of is one of those activities where people are required to get to know each other (and don't know beforehand that the activity will group them at random, so if they show up, they're getting to know strangers - unless they leave). Offense or tension can be solved simply by the two parties spending time together doing something unrelated. (This could be a "get to know you", "multiple teams", or "multiple groups giving service" type activity - so so long as people are randomly grouped and each group must work together.) If you want to confront the gossipers but aren't sure how, you could stop and invite the group of gossipers to come to class. ("Hey, everyone, will you come sit by me in Sunday School?" I mean, unless you're on your way to perform some urgent service, you need to be in class.) Or briefly invite them to improve. ("I know you're upset, but this isn't how the Lord wants us to handle our trials. Please come to class and maybe after, we can find a way to forgive.") If you don't want to address it directly, it seems like leadership need to know (bishop, RS pres, EQ pres) - the bishop seems like the one with the most proper stewardship in this area. Perhaps it's time for a scripture-based talk - given by a couple of the ones doing the gossiping: D&C 38:27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. 3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. D&C 64:10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. ...when I was a kid, nothing stopped bad behavior faster than a quick scripture read - my parents would sit us down sometimes, open the scriptures*, read a verse, and then tell us we could go (I don't even remember them explaining why they'd done it - they never needed to). (*I think seeing physical scriptures open made it more effective than had they just quoted it.) Or perhaps you should print different scriptures on those "print-them-yourself" business cards and hand them out as you walk down the hall. There was a good MormonAd about gossip - maybe get / make some cards of it and hand those out. (I know, it all takes guts, but there's no way to solve a behavior problem without dealing directly with the person doing the behaving.) FWIW.

That's because I was overly verbose: Great and Abominable Church (which is a lot to type).

If the point of this thread is this quote from the end of the OP: "As I said, I'm genuinely worried about my status and the status of all members of the Church." (and I'm assuming that's a sincere, caring, "I want to help" concern for other members), then I think we've gone far astray, and I, for one, would prefer we return. If that wasn't the point, and percentages, acreage, and determination of who's in and who's out were the point, then nevermind the below, and let me know so I can bow out... A) You cannot be serious. Brigham Young once stated (or so it's claimed) that the "earth reeling to and fro as a drunken man" would be caused by the return of all the bits which have been taken away (Eden, the city of Enoch, etc.) and that by the time it's done, this earth would be 10 times its current size. I don't really care one way or another whether that's true in whole, part, or none. What I am 100% sure of is that the current dimensions of this planet will have NOTHING to do with the number of people who make it into the celestial kingdom ("Sorry, no room for you, try the previous kingdom." or "Ah, six acres instead of five, hallelujah!"). As if the Lord couldn't make this planet as big or small as He wanted at any time He wanted! Further, if the above were rational, where, pray tell, would all the billions of spirit children of those people who do make it, live? Or will the celestial kingdom be like a vacation home, and each couple will have their own "nigh to Kolob" -type planet where all the kiddies reside? Or do celestial couples only get 5-acres' worth of children? ("Mom, he's touching me!") B) Why in the world are you so concerned with how many people there will / will not (might / might not) be in the celestial kingdom? Or am I totally misunderstanding something? Or if you aren't, why so many speculative quotes and comments about it? This and some of your other comments sound to me like passing final judgements on others (sorry, but to me they do). For example: When I hear that statement ("I can't be perfect*, so God will understand when I make mistakes." (*"in mortality" assumed)), barring further context, I hear a simple statement of fact. It does not not "concern me" and I don't feel the need to add a caveat ('...if those "mistakes" are not the product of...'). God understood before we ever made any mistakes, hence the plan of salvation, hence our Savior. (PS: even if those are honest mistakes, we still need the plan and the Savior, thus making the caveat irrelevant.) And even if you're not making judgements, and these people weren't sincere, what good will come from these lines of discussion? It's not like we can actually figure out the answers ("Oops, you didn't carry the 2 there, it's actually 4.97 acres."). Surely there's something better to be had, either on the topic of the celestial kingdom, or on the topic of avoiding membership in the great and abominable church (hereinafter GandAC, not to be confused with Gandalf). Things I concern myself with when I think of the celestial kingdom are generally: 1) How do I get myself there? (not whether there will be room for me, not how many others might show up) 2) How can I help others get themselves there? (not whether they deserve to be there, not whether they're making their best effort - as if I could see into their heart and make such a determination!) (PS: go homonyms!) 3) Though I know it will be right and required, I so do not want to stand before the bar of God and testify of anyone else's sins. Instead, I want to beg the Lord for mercy on their behalf. I know full well that the Lord's judgements will be just, and that each of us will end up in the proper kingdom for us, and that we will be happier there than any other place, even a higher kingdom, because it will be the place we each have chosen to be. Nonetheless, the thought of having to testify against another, even my enemies, fills my heart with sadness, and I long for them to be as blessed as possible. Surely discussing things such as these (which seem closer to the first OP quote I started with) would be more rewarding than trying to calculate celestial acreage or GandAC membership numbers? (Sorry for the length. I tried to make it shorter and failed.)

After reading thread title: My word for 2016 is the same as my word for 2015: "year". After reading initial post: Oops. Nevermind. Carry on.

Warnings are good. Encouragement is better. Speculations on how many might "make it" are pointless - you can't scare people into worthiness - though you can scare them to the point of discouragement. The good news is that Jesus Christ will judge 100%. And it is my assertion (not just belief) that the direction in which we are traveling will matter more than how far along the path we are. Think of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. Consider the new convert struggling to progress. Some time back, in some conversation (have forgotten all details other than these), the topic of the Second Coming came up. Like most of us, I feel entirely unprepared for that event. Unlike some, I long for the day, despite those feelings. As I later pondered this, I came to this decision: if I am not burnt to a cinder at the start, I will move toward Christ in that event, no matter how painful doing so is with a full knowledge of all my sins. I will not hide, no matter how much I want to. Whatever His judgement is in that day, so be it, but I won't make myself (more) unworthy by hiding from the only One who has any chance of redeeming me.

OK, but for the record, one doesn't have to be on the verge of getting married or going on a mission to receive their own endowments. An adult member who is worthy can receive their endowments, even if single, no spouse or mission in sight. I did. The rest of that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Bad Joke"... :)

FWIW, that doesn't sound at all familiar to me. Just checked in with my brother, and he's got nothing either. I find it hard to believe the scriptures would include anything remotely like the idea that "technology" was controlling people... I suspect that if anything, this was some sort of commentary or interpretation, not the scriptures themselves.

A Relief Society President, High Councilor, and Bishop were kidnapped for ransom. The church, per policy, refused to pay the ransom, so the kidnappers told the three they could make a final request before being killed. The Relief Society President said she'd like to sing all 7 verses of her favorite hymn, "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief". The kidnappers reluctantly agreed. The High Councilor said every month he prepared a half-hour talk, but without fail he never had more than ten minutes to speak, so he wanted to give all of his most-recent talk. When the kidnappers asked the Bishop what his final wish was, he said, "I'd like to hear the Relief Society President sing her favorite hymn, but kill me before the High Councilor gives his talk."

I'm female, but well past being a "girl" - except when some toys show up... Meanwhile, that's the best offer I've had in years - thanks! On the other hand, at lunch today, I was driving with some friends past the "Men's Warehouse" and we were discussing whether we should stop and see what kind of men they had in stock. I was thinking a handyman and one who likes cooking and cleaning would suit me fine!

Thanks for the laughs, Eowyn and Gator! I'll still be interested in hearing what JojoBag meant by the age and not married portions of: "I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one."

Ah, I was thinking in the other direction (too old) as too young didn't seem applicable to the original statement (too young wouldn't "qualify"). OK, so, if you're worthy and old enough, you can hold a temple recommend either for doing baptisms for the dead (youth) or just a regular recommend (those old enough to have received their own endowment). But marital status? I've never heard of such a thing. Actually, I've never heard of anything that would prevent a qualified member from getting a temple recommend, even if some circumstance keeps them from attending a temple.

Since when are age and marital status determining factors in whether one can "hold" a temple recommend?

Hmm. And just what is it that gators eat?

I have a conservative, LDS friend who is vegetarian not because she thinks there's anything wrong with meat, but because of the way commercial farms / ranches treat their animals. Meanwhile, of course healthy food is worse for the environment. Let's follow the, um, logic: * People are harming the environment in oh so many ways * Animals raised for human consumption probably aren't much better * Plants are good, we should let them live, not kill the poor helpless things just for food * Bacon is not healthy for people (or pigs) * The more bacon people eat, the sooner they'll die, and the fewer people (and pigs) we'll have * The fewer people (and pigs) we have, the less they'll harm the environment * Save the World: Eat More Bacon! * (As a bonus, if you eat enough to die before reproducing any more harmful people onto the planet, the environmentalists will add your name to their honor roll.) ...or this is just a conspiracy on the part of the "Bacon Growers of America". (Disclaimer: This post was just for fun. I believe in what the scriptures say about diet and caring for the Earth and its resources.)

Another thought experiment: If you're endowed, you've pretty much already agreed to give up all you have for the blessing of others. I submit that providing for your family is part of that (you could choose not to provide for your family and wouldn't be the first to make that choice).

Example: I want to stay home and read a book (this statement is never false). The Lord wants me to go help clean the church / attend the Saturday night session of Stake Conference / visit someone in need / etc. I should give up my will, and do as the Lord wills. If I refuse, I won't receive revelation such as who "someone in need" is. Or, by extension, by choosing not to do things I know I ought to do, I'm telling the Spirit not to bother with me, and will feel the Spirit's inspiration less and less. President Monson has talked about acting on promptings immediately - this is another example. A prompting is the Lord telling you his will. Putting off action until a more convenient time, or because you simply don't want to act, tells the Spirit not to bother you (and the Spirit complies quickly with your wish not to be bothered). On the other hand, acting promptly on a prompting (hee hee) invites the Spirit to remain with you and guide you. So, giving up your own will comes in many forms: Obedience to commandments you know about (Sunday School answers)Serving well in a calling / office of the priesthoodHeeding the promptings you do receiveServing others (Charity)Striving to learn what the Lord's will is (and having a willingness to obey once you learn, otherwise you'll never learn, or you'll learn to your condemnation)etc. All the above could be expanded....eventually, doing the Lord's will becomes your will (in bits and pieces as you learn to enjoy what the Lord wants you to do). For me, this quote from "Reflections on a Consecrated Life", Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, October 2010 General Conference, says it all: Elder B. H. Roberts once expressed the process in these words: “The man who so walks in the light and wisdom and power of God, will at the last, by the very force of association, make the light and wisdom and power of God his own—weaving those bright rays into a chain divine, linking himself forever to God and God to him. This [is] the sum of Messiah’s mystic words, ‘Thou, Father, in me, and I in thee’—beyond this human greatness cannot achieve.” Walking "in the light and wisdom and power of God" is the same as doing the Lord's will.

That one doesn't seem hard to me (it's X who is a large and mighty man, and X who is highly favored of the Lord; where X is "the brother of Jared"). But I agree that sometimes in a verse with two or more people, it's really hard to tell which one is represented by any given he, him, or his. It would be nice if they'd used names in those situations. For example (sorry, couldn't find a video) in The Big Bang Theory where Leonard and Sheldon are discussing Penny and Lesley:

Dude! You are so dating yourself. (Says the woman who has a VHS tape of this movie on the shelf under her TV.)

Sunday21, I'm reading Ether 3 right now, and verse 11 teaches a very important point. It's after the brother of Jared see's the Lord's finger... "And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?" Note the future tense there. I think this is the meaning of "real intent" and one of the keys to receiving revelation - we believe in the answer before we know what it is. A real trial of faith. FWIW.

I disagree. As you get better (with practice) at recognizing the Spirit, it will be easier to receive guidance more often - and to know when it's OK to just do what you know is right. If I can make a suggestion: start your prayer with your testimony, then ask what you should pray for. Pray with the intent to say and do what the Lord wants. (This doesn't mean to stop praying for the thing you're concerned about, but to do that separately, another time, or after you're done with the first part - unless the Spirit is telling you not to pray for that right now...) In my experience, testimony is a quick way to invite the Spirit. And for me, the strongest and most certain answer to prayer came from a prayer that started this way. I've also found that reading my scriptures for an extended time (like 30 minutes or so) before prayer helps open my mind, and change my priorities...

What DoctorLemon said - you need to go talk to the Bishop. It sounds and feels scary, and a significant percentage of your being will tell you not to, but do it anyway - it will feel so much better afterwards. Your bishop has special keys in regards to repentance. Your girlfriend should follow the same advice.

Let's eat grandma. Let's eat, grandma. Commas save lives. ...seen recently on a t-shirt; same idea - the presence or absence of a comma makes a big difference!

Mormon 4:5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed. I don't think it would bother me for scripture to be fulfilled in this way...

I love Nibley. He speaks to me (that is, in ways I need to hear / can understand / that make me rethink my assumptions). And I have yet to find any logic flaws in his writing, thus, as the intro to Approaching Zion says, "He leaves nowhere to hide." PS, Anddenex, I wish I could write as well as you - you've made some very well-thought-out and presented posts in this thread. I'm impressed.