Doctor Steuss

Darwin may have been onto something with the whole "evolving from monkeys" thing...

She was excommunicated in 2000. Both of those articles predate her excommunication by a bit (she seemed to be able to remain a member for a full 15 years after writing the one, and for 6 after writing the other). If there was an axe to grind during that period, it evidently wasn't very sharp.

Margaret M. Toscano, "The Missing Rib," Sunstone, July 1985, Issue No. 51, pgs 17-22 or... Margaret M. Toscano, "If Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood since 1843, Why Aren't They Using It?," Dialogue, Volume 27, Number 2, Summer 1994, pg. 219 Edited to add: She [the author of the two refs above] is excommunicated though… for whatever that’s worth.

Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon

One particular thing I find interesting is men need the priesthood in order to enter the temple (even to do baptisms for the dead, the male needs the Aaronic priesthood to enter the temple). Yet, women don’t need it in order to enter the temple. What is it they inherently have that allows them within G-d’s house that men don’t? Then again, perhaps it is nothing at all…

Do you know if during this time period (or currently) the camp meetings were reserved for Methodists or if they were a general "calling to Christ"? ------- BTW, Jason, thank you for that reference earlier (I didn't thank you for that one). I had never heard of Turner's little book, and I look forward to getting a decent copy to add to my library. Today, I have been edified.

I think the Mormon prohibition on women holding the Priesthood is the reason for this "continuance" today, if we're asking for opinions. Perhaps. I did have a kind of interesting experience in one of my rare appearances at church (my niece was blessed last Sunday). I heard a rather interesting testimony while at my brother's ward. Well... it wasn't really all that interesting as I had heard my father say similar things; I guess it just caught me off-guard hearing it from the pulpit. Anyway, the hombre said that the priesthood is given to men to help them become the equals of women. I tend to think that the priesthood isn't really anything that sets someone "above" anyone else. But, there are definitely those who take it as a beating stick to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hopefully the day will come when women will once again have the priesthood (as some did in Joseph’s time). I have yet to find any scriptural support for them not being able to, other than tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of...eph_Smith%2C_Jr. Groovy stuff. I wonder what the difference (within Methodism) was in that period between a regular meeting and a "camp meeting" (the Turner book refers to them as "camp meetings" on the page referenced)...

Knowledge is knowledge, regardless of what equipment is in the pants. (Jan Shipps anyone?) Now, if you're speaking of opinions, then I'd agree that the opinions of a man are taken as more authoritative (in general) than that of a woman. However, I think this is an unfortunate byproduct of American sociological constructs as opposed to a specific aspect of “Mormonism.”

Welcome. You wouldn't happen to be Timothy Berman aka "SeattleGhostWriter" would you?

IMO, the power of human stupidity is far more powerful than "Satan." [edited to add: I just realized that this could be conveyed as me saying you are "stupid." Not so, and definately not my intention. Hugs?) Which reminds me of this groovy little dilly: Hugh often stated that "if you take yourself seriously, you won't take the gospel seriously and the other way around."8 One of my favorite examples of this comes from Curtis Wright, who was a graduate assistant for Hugh. One time Wright came into Hugh's office and found him there absorbed in reading the Book of Mormon and laughing. Wright asked Hugh what was so funny, and Hugh replied that he had found an error in the Book of Mormon. "You did, huh?" Wright responded. "Yes," Hugh stated and handed the scriptures to Wright pointing to Alma 42:10 which says that "man is carnal, sensual and devilish." "What's the matter with that?" demanded Wright. Hugh responded, "They left out stupid." Hugh's delightful sense of humor spared no one, least of all himself. He was the first to laugh at himself. "Nobody takes me seriously," wrote Hugh to his son, "which has been my salvation."9 From: This

Only women call me "beast"... And children. And men. And marsupials.

Mmmmm... frosty. PS. Ain't Jeff's humility grand? PPS. Reynolds... would this be a certain person with an alpha-numeric moniker?

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker Adventures of a Church Historian by Leonard Arrington Analysis of Textual Variants of the Book of Mormon Part's One through three by Royal Skousen Anchor Bible Dictionary An Exhaustive Concordance of the B of M, D & C, & P of G P by Shapiro Ancient Texts and Mormonism by Eugene Seaich B.H. Roberts: Studies of the Book of Mormon by Brigham D. Madsen Backgrounds of Early Christianity by Everet Ferguson Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era by J. E. Esslemont (might seem like a strange suggestion, but it has the "Grand Fundamental Principles of Mormonism" written within many of its tenets). Barbarian Philosophy: the Religious Revolution of Early Christianity by Guy G. Stroumsa Biblical Nonsense by Dr. Jason Long Book of Mormon Authorship by Noel Reynolds Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins by Noel Reynolds Building the City of God by Arrington, Fox, & May By Study and Also by Faith by John Lundquist and Stephen Ricks The Bible Says 1830 by Chris Tolworthy Hopefully the A's through B's will keep you busy for at least a little while.

It will cost you three pseudo-scholars and a side of name-calling. But you can keep it. 1. J. Reynolds 2. J. Lindsay 3. C. Skousen Side of name-calling: chhcchhhhh chchchhh cough cough cchhcchhh cchhchchh cough chhchhc cough cough Grrrrr... Thou shalt not make fun of the man-crush of the Doctor thy Steuss. Givens must be honored. PS. Jeff is a good cat... I don't know that I would consider him a "pseudo-scholar." And Skousen... well, anyone who writes a book titled "The Naked Communist" can't be all that bad; can they? PPS. Reynolds? Not at all familiar with who that is. Once again, you prove your intellectual abilities (and knowledge of things Mormon) are far above my own.

One of these days I'm going to cull such esteemed recognition from those within my ward. Until then, I'll just be the smarmy fellow in the back pew that attends church once every few months.

And yet (as far as I know... from my recent [and brief] research into this particular criticism [which I didn't even know was an actual criticism until yesterday]), it didn't cause this "great deal of misunderstanding" prior to James White's publication of Letters to a Mormon Elder. BTW, one of the greatest reviews I have ever read through RoBotBoM (now the FARMS Review) was done by Kerry Shirts (some may know him from his podcasts) and Russell McGregor (a frequent poster at MA&D; however he uses a moniker and prefers that he remain anonymous). Here's a link to the review (it's long, but sooooo worth reading): Letters to an Anti-Mormon But, back on topic. I have been unable to find any contemporary criticisms of this particular word usage. It seems to be a “fairly” recent home-grown anti-Mormon polemic developed by James White (who doesn’t think Mormons are Christian) followed by John Ankerberg and John Weldon, and eventually brandished by that ever-so-scholarly-and-honest “Christian,” Ed Decker.

I sent an email to Susan Slyomovics. Hopefully she will respond (but, I fear I may have let a bit of my “Mormon intentions” leak through in the email, so despite the source of the email [i.e. the illustrious and egotistical moi], I doubt she will respond -- but fingers are crossed.I agree that they are “fascinating” but not necessarily a tour de force to Joseph’s ability. Similar things could probably be found within the voluminous archives of the “sleeping prophet” Edgar Cayce. They do however cause pause. Seum/Sheum/Se-um isn’t really the most interesting one within the text that gets me. NHM/Nahom/Nehem is the one that really makes me pause (especially when compared to the ancient incense trail and the directions given in the BoM during Lehi’s trek through the Old World -- and also the position of a “bountiful.”) Some of them are ultimately a difficulty as well though. Why could Joseph translate so many other words, but such things like “cureloms and cumoms” weren’t “translatable”? The majority of evidence points to the “tight translation theory” (such as the wealth of Hebraisms); however, there are little anachronisms within the text as well as theology that doesn’t necessarily match that of a pre-Deuteronomist Israelite that make one wonder if there was indeed a loose translation process. Then there is the heavy reliance of KJV translation of Isaiah that gives pause (although Skousen has shown that some of it was the copier/typesetter’s doing and not Joseph), yet at the same time there are variants that match the DSS and other such manuscripts of Isaiah. Tvedtnes did an interesting survey of the Isaiah variants in the BoM. I don’t know if they are online, but if you’re interested in such mundane analysis, I can see if there is at least a synopsis of his publication available via internet. As a whole. They at least make one recognize (IMO) that despite his lack of education, he was a genius (if one takes the non-prophet stance). He attended the probationary classes, but he never (to my knowledge, unless you have evidence I’m not aware of) gave any “sermons” to the Methodist church he was involved with.I lied though when I said I would “respond” to the accusation. I’m too damned lazy to transcribe crap today. But, if you’re interested, Pomeroy Tucker (a non-Mormon who knew Joseph during this period) gives an account in Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (New York; D. Appleton and Company., 1867 -- [i say “Company,” but technically my version just has “Co.”]), pages 17-18… ok, maybe I’m not too lazy to give at least a small sampling: ”At one time he [Joseph -- which I’m sure you knew that the “he” was Joseph, but just being pretentious and adding it for clarity… and now I’m rambling] joined the probationary class of the Methodist Church in Palmyra, and made some active demonstrations of engagedness, though his assumed convictions were insufficiently grounded or abiding to carry him along to the saving point of conversion, and he soon withdrew from the class.” -- And here is where it gets interesting -- “The final conclusion announced by him was, that all sectarianism was fallacious, all the churches on a false foundation.” When compared to Joseph’s own admissions, Tucker’s account is pretty much in-line with what Joseph himself had to say on the topic (i.e. “I became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them…. I was answered that I must join none of them…” etc., etc.). PS. Can we say adieu to “adieu,” or is it still a point of contention?

Unfortunately, all I can provide is what might be deemed as LDS "propaganda." So, take it for what it's worth... There is "A Grammar of Akkadian" by John Huehnergard that was pulled up in my search of JSTOR (for "grain seum Akkadian"). Unforunately, this particular journal (from the Linguistic Society of America) is not covered in my general access of JSTOR... it's hit-and-miss with what University publications I can get for free -- and I really don't feel like forking out the cash for it (sorry). Lewy notes that this often poses a challenge in interpreting references to cereals in Near Eastern documents. When doing so, "the meaning of these Old Assyrian terms must be inferred from the Old Assyrian texts alone without regard to their signification in sources from Babylonia and other regions adjacent to Assyria."1 Other Assyriologists have observed that the ancient Assyrian term sheum was used at various times to refer to barley, grains generally, and even pine nuts.2 It is worth noting that sheum is also mentioned in the Book of Mormon in an agricultural context (see Mosiah 9:9). It apparently refers to a New World crop cultivated in the land of Nephi that was designated by an Old World term. Use of this term in the Book of Mormon is itself significant, since Akkadian could not be read (and hence the term sheum was not known) until decades after the Book of Mormon was published. Endnotes: 1. Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the American Oriental Society 76/4 (1956): 201. 2. See The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, ed. Ignace J. Gelb et al. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1992), vol. 17, pt. 2, 345–55. From: Barley and Wheat in the Book Mormon And: In discussing Book of Mormon grains, "early Akkadian she-um" should read simply "Akkadian sheum" (p. 1:173), as sheum is attested in all phases of the Akkadian language, and is ultimately of Sumerian origin.6 End note: 6. For the borrowing, see Proto-Ea 689, in Miguel Civil, ed., MSL XIV, vol. 14 of Materials for the Sumerian Lexicon (Rome: Pontificum Institutum Biblicum, 1979), 58. There are other Akkadian words for barley; see Antoine Cavigneaux, "Le nom akkadien du grain," Nouvelles Assyriologiques Brèves et Utilitaires 1990/3 (September 1990): 33. From: Review of The Encyclopedia of Mormonism by Daniel H. Ludlow And: According to Zeniff's record in the Book of Mormon account, "And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum" (Mosiah 9:9). "Pray tell me what kinds of grain neas and sheum are? Joseph Smith's translation needs another translation, to render it intelligible."35 "We must reluctantly pass on denying the existence of neas and sheum, and put them into the same category as the unidentifiable cureloms and cumoms."36 As it turns out sheum is a perfectly good Akkadian (ancient northern Mesopotamian) name for a grain dating to the third millennium B.C.37 This term, se um, (the s is pronounced sh in semitic languages) was a term by which these ancient Near Eastern peoples referred to barley, although it could also be applied to other kinds of grains. Book of Mormon peoples seem to have applied this Old World name to some New World crop. Could Joseph Smith have derived this name from some nineteenth century book? Impossible. Akkadian could not be read until 1857, twenty-seven years after the Book of Mormon was published and thirteen years after the Prophet was dead. This raises an interesting question. If Joseph Smith was really the author of the Book of Mormon, how did he come up with the word sheum? How did he just happen to choose this particular name and just happen to use it in an agricultural context? Endnotes: 35 Origen Bacheler, Mormonism Exposed, 14. 36 Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A former Mormon tells why she left the Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979), 84. 37 Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the American Oriental Society 76/4 (October-December 1956): 201-204. From: Right on Target: Boomerang Hits and the Book of Mormon Do we know that? Do we really? I'll try to respond to that tomorrow. Maybe.

My last post was a quick (and quite lazy) response that didn't include much research on my part. Hopefully this will redeem me, and establish that adieu was fairly commonplace amongst Joseph's contemporaries, and at least show that this particular "stumbling block" is a creation of presentism and not actuality. This is from the Christian Register and Boston Observer, Saturday, August 22, 1840, Vol. XIX No. 34 -- This is a Boston newspaper that was "Devoted to Unitarian Christianity, Sound Morals, Literature and News" They are making many proselytes in the Southern States, and in England, as well as in the West. Truth is mighty! -- So is error! May 'the truth as it is in Jesus' prevail, by whatever name it goes. Adieu, Truly yours, W. P. H. This is from The Mormon, Saturday, July 12, 1856, Vol. II -- Although this is an LDS "friendly" periodical, it was nonetheless circulated to the general populous: They were then permitted to bid adieu to their mother and families, and were told that "to-morrow they die at 9 o'clock," from which fate they were providentially saved through the interference of the gallant General Doniphan, who declared to Major General Lucas, "It is cool blooded murder; and if you execute them I will hold you responsible before an earthly tribunal. This is from the Voree Herald, April,1846, Vol.I. No. 4 -- published in "Voree, W. T.", I believe this was one of James Strange's periodicals. I have not time to write more. I would be glad to hear from you as soon as convenient. Adieu -- mat the God of love and peace direct all your footsteps and bring us at last unto his heavenly kingdom. This is from the Daily Missouri Republican, Thurs. May 13, 1846, Vol. XXIV No. 3898 -- This newspaper was published in St. Louis, Missouri and was far from "friendly" to Mormons. [...]the spectator cannot fail to be struck with the lightness of heart, apparent cheerfulness, and sanguine hopes with which families bid adieu to their friends, and set out on their journey. This is from The Niagra Democrat, June 2, 1837, Vo. II. No. 40 -- This publication was from Lockport, NY Turner here bids his readers a final adieu, in a valedictory column, saying his "active participation" probably "will not again be resumed," -- however he soon enough returned to the controlling reins at the Niagara Democrat. This is from Republican Advocate, Friday, Sep. 22, 1826, Vol. 15 No. 763 -- Published in "Batavia," this one is prior to the establishment of the LDS Church. [...]by a Canadian Spy of the name of Daniel Johns and headed by a citizen of Le Roy, who must ever bid adieu to the character of a Legislator after having headed such a lawless assemblage, who openly avowed their intention of destroying my printing establishment; and which would have been done, is admitted by Masons in this village, but for Mrs. Morgan's having delivered up certain papers on that day. This is from the Chicago Times, Saturday, August 7, 1875 -- a newspaper (whose name should still be familiar) published in Chicago, Il. Although it is slightly outside of the publication of the BoM, I still think it is a valid example of the use of the word adieu amongst the general public in America. The same year the faithful bade a friendly adieu to Clay county and settled in Caldwell, founding the historic town of Far West which soon became prosperous and populous. At this time Joe Smith was a banker at Kirtland, but in 1837 his bank suspended payment and Joe made good time to Far West where he again assumed the leadership of his flock. This is from the Republican Compiler, January 7, 1834, Vol. 16 No. 18. -- A periodical published in Gettysburg. The title of the article is kind of funny that this appears in. It is "THE MORMONITES AGAIN." It is in vain to deny, that sectarian influence has nothing to do in this matter-the stake and the fagot was anciently used to burn heretics, and if they are to be revived again, we may bid adieu to liberty equality, and the rights of man! This is from the Warsaw Message, January 17, 1844, Vol. I. No 4. -- A newpaper from Warsaw, Illinois If so, farewell freedom; adieu to personal safety, and let the red hot wrath of an offended God purify the nation of such sinks of corruption! For that realm is hurrying to ruin where vice has the power to expel virtue. This is from the Kansas City Daily Journal June 5, 1881 -- Published in Kansas City, Mo. It is a little into the future, but close enough to be a contemporary IMO. This ended the interview ad after bidding the old man adieu and thanking him for his kindness the writer took his leave. This is from the Lee County Democrat, June 15, 1844, Vol. III. - No. 48., Whole No. 152 -- Published in "Fort Madison, I. T.", this is technically an Iowa periodical. The freedom and liberty of the press should at all times be guarded against violence, and we predict that if such an act of outrage is permitted to be passed over, then indeed we may bid adieu to our sacred liberties. This one is from an LDS publication which still stands, the Deseret News, Wed., September 23, 1857., No. 29. Vol. VII -- Published in SLC, Utah. We are united in virtue and truth, and we set hell at defiance, and all her agents. Adieu. This is another one that predates the formation of the LDS Church. This is from the Western Review, November, 1819, Vol. I. No. 4 -- Published in Lexington, Ky. Hence the inundation of those barbarous hordes, who, issuing from the mountains of the north, bade adieu to their barren abodes and destroyed every thing in their progress towards more genial climes, until they were themselves destroyed. This is a letter from a Mormon that was published in the Morning Chronicle, Tuesday June 21, 1842, Vol. 1. - No. 266. -- Published out of Pittsburgh. Interesting side note (at least to me). The cover price was "2 cents." So, adieu to that "Document" for the present; I shall notice the "Book of Mormon," and "Book of Doctrine and Covenants," referred to in "Mormonism Exposed." JOHN E. PAGE, From the Pittsburgh Daily Gazette and Advertiser, Friday Morning, June 13, 1845, Vol. XII. No. 266. Adieu till then. D. N. W. This one is from the Christian Baptist, February 7, 1825, Vol. II No. 7 -- Published out of Buffaloe, Brooke Co., Va, this also predates the formation of the LDS Church. I believe this may have been a Cambelite publication. returned the compliment by pitying him, and after a few ceremonies and compliments we bade adieu, The editor of the Luminary also published some threats of what they are going to do with me; but as yet they have attempted nothing that has seen the light.... Hopefully this will put an end to the whole adieu thing and show that it was used fairly commonly by contemporaries and was hardly an esoteric word. It (IMO) appears to have been just as much an “English” word as a “French” word during Joseph’s time in America. And (of course), I would like to acknowledge "Uncle" Dale Broadhurst for being so charitable in allowing free access to his vast archives of periodicals dealing with "Mormonism."

Whenever I serve Jury Duty, I have to wade through all of the people waiting for licenses. My friend eloped too, but he just did it infront of a Justice of the Peace. I'm sure your parents' hearts healed.

First and foremost, I want to apologize if some of my comments regarding this subject come off as snarky. I just never thought that it was actually a point of contention, and I’m having a bit of trouble shifting gears out of my paradigm to see how it might be viewed as legitimate by another. Mosiah 9: 9And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land. **** Do you have any evidence that only the educated elite in 19th Century upstate New York would know the meaning of adieu as opposed to some of the Jaccobian English words contained in the text (such as “yea”)? Seems to me that a word that entered the English language around the 14th Century would have mingled into the vocabularies of at least a few English speakers that weren’t the educated elite (such as the unlearned farm boy Joseph Smith… how on earth did he know this esoteric word?). If the word banquet had found it’s way into the BoM translation, would that cause similar problems (as it didn’t enter English until approx. 100 years after adieu)?Shakespeare used adieu quite frequently. Or if you want something of that time period, there are several Methodist hymns that utilize the word adieu. Methodism was part of America from (conservatively) McKendree’s election in the early 1800’s (I believe 1811[?]). This would seemingly help in the circulation of this word into the vocabulary of at least a few of the pious Methodists that were having their camp meetings in New York in the early periods of Joseph's life. Or, perhaps this will hit a little closer home, in Irenaeus’ "Against Heresies,” at least one translator renders a portion in the following way: But who are they that have left father and mother, and have said adieu to all their neighbours, on account of the word of God and His covenant, unless the disciples of the Lord? http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html -- Is this a valid translation? Was he trying to make this translation out of the reach of anyone who wasn't part of the educated elite? Also, the word is used in an LDS Hymn (#52) -- which was penned by a non-Mormon. It was also used in The Times and Seasons (the early LDS periodical) several times -- which would seemingly indicate that it was known amongst contemporaries of that time and not something for only the educated elite to comprehend. Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife) even received a letter from her non-LDS husband (Bidamon) that said: “Adeau, dear Emma, for the present. Give my warmest affections to the children and all inquireing friends, and curses to my enmeys!” I have never heard her second husband described as part of the educated elite. The translator (Joseph Smith) evidently knew the word and felt it [“adieu”] was a good fit. Reaching for any reason beyond that is straining at gnats. ****Edited addenda to "sheum." This of course isn't anything all that special though. It could have simply been a lucky guess that he used an Akkadian word that is associated with grain and cereal in a context that fits its meaning. Lest you think I was trumpeting it as “proof” of Joseph having a text in front of him that had a place in antiquity, it is merely a “curiosity” IMO that makes me go, “hmmmm…”

And yet, you seemingly go on to defend it. Has your position changed, or do you still think that “adieu” within the text is an issue? Does it matter that “adieu” was in the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language? I doubt everyone knew Jacobian English either, nor Akkadian (there's an Akkadian word in the text... interestingly; no one could read Akkadian during Joseph's time).Do you have a source that it was to be done "in a language that everyone understood," or is this merely your opinion?

Zeke was from his wife Margaret. I descend through his wife Annie (her son Sixtus). I have a box full of Joel Hills type stuff. I just hardly ever delve into it. I imagine that is the same Zeke Johnson as I understand he had something to do with Rainbow Bridge.

I hereby give you a letter of reprieve and accept this apology. Go and spell no more my child.