Doctor Steuss

2 Nephi 2: 11

Good morning Jason, I finally have a few of the Enoch / NT parallels. I unfortunately didn't have my Barker book as my brother has it, so I'm forced to use a dated source (although it is dated, AFAIK, they still hold within current Biblical scholarship [anyone have a CD of the Anchor Bible Dictionary? Searching for this junk in the non indexed physical one is near impossible]). The Enoch passages are Richard Laurence's (the late Archbishop of Cashel) translation. Enoch XXII. 10,12 (The Angel Raphael addressing Enoch in the region of the dead) “Here their souls are separated… by a chasm.” Luke XVI. 26 (Abraham addressing Dives from the region of the blessed) “Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed.” -------- Enoch XLVI. 2 “This is the Son of man… who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed.” Col. II. 3 “In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” -------- Enoch XLV. 3 “In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations.” Matt. XXV. 31,32 “Then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another.” -------- Enoch XLVIII “He has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and rejected this world of iniquity, and have detested all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of spirits.” Gal. I. 4 “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father.”

Your "friend" is allergic to Mormons. Take two Buddhist and three Evangelicals and call me in the morning.

Add to that the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox Icon, as a window into heaven, and it grows even more IMO. Mind hooking a brother up with a link or book?

When the role of Saints for intercessory prayers was first explained to me I had a bit of dogma envy. When properly understood, it tends to be a rather beautiful doctrine IMO.

Ah, I see. Kind of like calling a woman a dog solely because of her nationality? Kidding. Maybe. Maybe not.

Depends on what jumps out on the pages. To me on some days, there is intolerance in the actual message of Christ, and there is the love of G-d in Judaism. Also, don't forget that Christ was a practicing Jew (fulfilling the law required that He live it [although there were some aspects He didn't live which I tend to think were added by Josiah's reform]). I have seen far more intolerance spring from "Christianity" than from "Judaism." But, that's just anecdotal in the end so...

Welcome, and I hope you find your stay rewarding and enlightening. I would stay away from the poster "Doctor Steuss" though. Word on the street is that he is pretty smarmy. If you don't mind me asking, are you LDS? Also, is the beautiful son your only son, or is there a not-so-beautiful one too?

Heretic. B) LOL! I know, I know. A while back, my friend "selek" on another board pointed out to me that one of my beliefs is one of the "top heresies" listed by Joseph F. Smith. It takes me a lot to maintain a belief in G-d. Sometimes that means that I have to be viewed as a heretic by some… or most. At least living in Las Vegas has prepared me for my eventual stay in hell.

My opinion of Paul is definitely subject to change. I have a book sitting on my shelf that I'll get around to one of these days titled "Paul's Life and Letters" by Tvetdnes (sp?). Maybe it will help me see the light that many within Protestant Christianity see... Then again, maybe it will just end up making me like Peter. That's too bad you loath the OT. I just can't seem to get enough of it. It's funny how certain things speak to us. I once took a little survey on Beliefnet that said I was 98% Orthodox Jew. I was only 70% LDS in my beliefs.

Well... that smarts.

He was an imperfect and uneducated man. G-d picked up a lot of slack, but not all of it. So yes, he did the best he could with G-d's help. This might not sit well with many LDS, and I don't want you to think this is the "official" way of looking at it. But, I do tend to think that in all scripture (both ancient and modern) the human often finds its way into the divine. Infallibility is something that the LDS have never given to prophets. I just take it one step further and allow for some of the fallibility to find its way into the infallible word of G-d.

At first, I laughed at this and was ready to flippantly respond: "When was Paul born?" But, then I read your clarification: I don't hold ecclesiastical epistles written by a man that never personally knew Christ in the same regard as the Torah.Call me crazy. Then again, I don't hold the Torah to be infallible either (after all of the redactors, scribes and the revisions brought about by the Deuteronomists, there's a considerable amount of politics and mythology mixed in with the divine).

CFR Council on Foreign Relations? Call for References. I think your claim was a falsehood and I would like documentation to back it up. Mostly, I missed out on the ad hom. day here, and I’m just trying to catch up. You smell funny.

A little tid-bit on Paul. Ignatius lists him amongst the men of G-d that were married: Not, however, that I blame the other blessed [saints] because they entered into the married state, of which I have just spoken. For I pray that, being found worthy of God, I may be found at their feet in the kingdom, as at the feet of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; as of Joseph, and Isaiah, and the rest of the prophets; as of Peter, and Paul, and the rest of the apostles, that were married men. For they entered into these marriages not for the sake of appetite, but out of regard for the propagation of mankind. (Ignatius, Epistles of Ignatius) Also, in 2 - Philippians 4:1-3 1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. 2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. In verse 3, Paul may be addressing his wife. The Greek suzugos tends to give credence to this line of thought, IMO. In the Matthew 19 verse I was too lazy to look up earlier (6), the Greek word suzeugnumi is what is translated as "hath joined together." Also, we have: Clement, indeed, whose words we have just quoted, after the above-mentioned facts gives a statement, on account of those who rejected marriage, of the apostles that had wives. "Or will they," says he, "reject even the apostles? For Peter and Philip begat children; and Philip also gave his daughters in marriage. And Paul does not hesitate, in one of his epistles, to greet his wife, whom he did not take about with him, that he might not be inconvenienced in his ministry." (Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History (Eusebius of Caesarea)) Which is a reference to this: Even Paul did not hesitate in one letter to address his consort. The only reason why he did not take her about with him was that it would have been an inconvenience for his ministry. Accordingly he says in a letter: "Have we not a right to take about with us a wife that is a sister like the other apostles?" But the latter, in accordance with their particular ministry, devoted themselves to preaching without any distraction, and took their wives with them not as women with whom they had marriage relations, but as sisters, that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. It was through them that the Lord's teaching penetrated also the women's quarters without any scandal being aroused. (Clement’s Stromata, Book III, Chapter VI, 53) A good portion of the above research is courtesy of yet another one of my little online friends, "T-Shirt" (always like to give credit where it's due).

I think some evidence points to Paul being widowed. In any case, I'll take G-d's words over Paul's (Gen 2:24 -- which interestingly can be interpreted to mean there is a "Heavenly Mother")... or maybe I'll listen to Christ (Matt 19 [too lazy to find the verse(s)])

CFR

It is quite a pickle, and a substantial "problem" that you raise. But, I tend to look at it as oral traditions that were preserved by different people, and eventually written down at different times and places by different people. World views, paradigms, local culture, etc., inevitably found their way into each text; however, the overall themes remained. I tend to have a much more fluid concept of "scripture" (including the OT and NT) than most -- I'm often branded as a heretic by LDS even. Enochic literature may have even been compiled in a similar way as the DH suggests the OT was compiled.I think that even some of Joseph's world-view made its way into the Book of Moses. Although it was a restoration, it was a restoration through Joseph. My friend "structurecop" who participates on another board recently pointed out how the concepts of "hell" in the Book of Mormon more closely resembles 19th Century Christian thought than that of sheol and hades in the milieu of ancient Israel. So, parallels of basic themes and doctrines would be expected (IMO) but overall nitty-gritty details wouldn't necessarily be expected due to the way the texts had been transmitted over time. I used to correspond with a Rabbi many (or not-so-many) years ago. One thing that he zinged me with in one letter is that the concept of a "Second Coming" is completely foreign to Messianic prophecies. I got him back though by noting the parallels between Joseph Smith and the prophecies for a Messiah ben Joseph. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the “cosmic Christ” vs. a “living Christ” one of these days. I always enjoy reading people’s thoughts/beliefs/expositions on the New Testament. I’ve never had the desire to delve into the NT much. For whatever reason, I just can’t seem to walk away from the OT and apocryphal writings. Just call me “Heretic.” Edited to add: Moses chapters 6 & 7 (mostly just verses 25-51 in chapter 6) are the areas that should match up with Enochic literature.

This post demonstrates that you are a smarmy heretic that smells like bologna and wet dog.

IIRC, 1st Enoch dates to about the 200 BCE. Which does make one wonder why it held prominence and influence for the NT writers. One way to reconcile this is to see the additions that date it to this period as redactions (much like the wealth of things added/subtracted during Josiah's reform and the multiple "Isaiahs" [i.e. the later portion of Isaiah dating to far after Isaiah's life]). Enoch and Moses don't claim to be the same thing though. There are only two chapters that mainly claim to be a "lost" book of Enoch. Thus, having parallels (however small) with Enochic literature would be expected, but in no way would they be expected to be identical. I don't think the themes of those few chapters are "vastly different" in the least when compared to Enochic mythos and literature as a whole. They might be different when compared to one particular book or apocryphal writing that purports to be Enochic, but when taken as a whole, I think it tends to match up quite nicely (I do however have LDS goggles on, so I readily admit my bias when looking at these sorts of things). I do see where you're going though, and I agree. I see the same differences between Yeshua ben Yoseph and the Israelite Messianic prophecies.

Oi vey.

A of F 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Compare to 3 Nephi Chapter 11 (don't get lazy... read the whole thing. Especially in regards to what Christ's "doctrine" is (and keep in mind how little this word is used in the BoM [i think only about 13 times]).

I'm going to need my library for this one. So, it will be a while before I get around to it (unfortunately, I don't have the patience to dig through the crap google responses in trying to find what I'm after)... All of the above (and some Dead Sea Scroll Enochic Literature). I tend to think parallels from 1st Enoch are more impressive since it was the least likely to be available to Joseph (as it wasn't discovered until after the production of Book of Moses, et.al.).

I think some of those are very interesting. But as you noted, they are not proof. Nor do they match up enough to grant them an exact parallel. If Moses was a recreation of Enoch, then I would expect better than this. Are you familiar with what warrants a "parallel" between Enochic literature and the NT? They are far, far less striking. I think there is a Book of Enoch available from Archive Publishers that’s pretty cheap. The intro is extremely dated, but it does cover some of the NT/Enoch parallels (besides the obvious Jude quote). Edited to add: I'll try to get a few of the Enoch/NT parallels posted in a bit.

Yes, I'm quoting myself... and responding to myself... Book of Enoch fun (and/or Enochic literature) -- With a very large bow to my good friend Consiglieri from "another board" (he is also head of the SSCE, a clandestine organization for which I am the acting Mohel).: In the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, we have a quote purportedly from the "Book of Enoch." For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as the book of Enoch the Righteous maintains. (Testament of Levi 10:5) This is from The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, edited by James H. Charlesworth, p. 792. According to the footnote, there is "No known parallel in Enochic literature." But, if we look to one of those heretical books "created" by Joseph Smith, we find: For there shall be my tabernacle; and it shall be called Zion, a new Jerusalem. (Moses 7:62b) Looks like there just might be a "known parallel in Enochic literature." ----------- Enoch sees Noah protected by the hand of God Moses 7:43--Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came. 1 Enoch 67:2--At this time the angels are working with wood (making an ark) and when it is completed, I shall place my hands upon it and protect it. ----------- Enoch Sees All Things Moses 7:67a--And the Lord showed Enoch all things, even unto the end of the world. 2 Enoch 40:1--Now therefore, my children, I know everything; . . . my eyes have seen from the beginning even to the end, and from the end to the recommencement. ----------- Enoch Sees Men's Deeds Moses 7:41--The Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men, wherefore Enoch knew. 2 Enoch 53:2--See how I have written down all the deeds of every person before the creation, and I am writing down what is done among all persons forever. ------------- Enoch Sees All Generations Moses 7:4--(the Lord said to Enoch): Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations. 3 Enoch 45--And I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts (etc.) . . . And every deed of every generation, whether done or to be done in the time to come, to all generations, till the end of time. ------------- Premortal Existence Moses 6:51--And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh. 2 Enoch 23:4-5--You (Enoch) sit down and write--all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, . . . For all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth. ------------- The Earth Speaks Moses 7:48a--Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. 1 Enoch 7:6--(After a description of the wickedness on the earth) And then the earth brought an accusation against the oppressors. -------------- Enoch Weeps Moses 7:44--And as Enoch saw this, he had bitterness of soul, and wept over his brethren, and said unto the heavens: I will refuse to be comforted. 2 Enoch 41:1--And I (Enoch) sighed and burst into tears, and I said concerning their disreputable depravity, Oh how miserable . . .. ------------- Mahijuah/Mahujah Moses 6:39-40--[W]hen they heard him (Enoch) . . . fear came on all them that heard him. And there came a man unto him (Enoch), whose name was Mahijah, and said to him: Tell us plainly who thou art and from whence thou comest? Dead Sea Scrolls 4QEnGiants 1:20--[Thereupon] all the giants [and the nephilim] took fright and they summoned Mahujah and he came to them: And the giants asked him and sent him to Enoch [...] saying to him: Go then [...] and under pain of death you must [...] and listen to his voice; and tell him that he is to explain to you and to interpret the dreams. ----------------- Enoch a Lad at 65 Moses 6:31--Why is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad? 2 Enoch 10:4--And the men answered me (Enoch), This place, youth, has been prepared for those who practice godless uncleanness on the earth. 3 Enoch 3:2--[Enoch] answered, I have seventy names; . . . however, my King calls me Youth. 3 Enoch 4:2--Why, then, do they call you Youth in the heavenly heights? He answered, Because I am Enoch, the son of Jared. 3 Enoch 4:10--Because I am young in their company (the holy angels) and a mere youth among them in days and months and years--therefore they call me Youth. ------------- Now, these might not seem like much. One might be inclined to say: "Joseph just stole this stuff from these other texts." But, keep in mind that many of these texts (with perhaps the exception of 3 Enoch) were not available to Joseph. Also, anyone familiar with Biblical scholarship and what warrants a noteworthy "parallel" might be less likely to dismiss these as insignificant. Are they proof? Hardly. Are they evidence? Perhaps. Enough to at least give one pause, IMO. Ok, just a few more: Enoch Given Right to God's Throne Moses 7:59--[Enoch to God] Thou hast made me, and given unto me a right to thy throne. 3 Enoch 10:1-3--[Enoch speaking] The Holy One made for me a throne like the throne of glory . . . He placed it at the door of the seventh palace and sat me down upon it. ---------------- The Lord's House Shall Be Called Jerusalem Testament of Levi 10:4 (quoting from an otherwise unknown Enoch source)--For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as the Book of Enoch the Righteous maintains. Moses 7:62b--For there shall be my tabernacle and it shall be called Zion, a new Jerusalem. -------------- God Gives Adam Free Will Moses 6:56--And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves. Moses 7:32b--In the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency. 2 Enoch 30:15--And I . . . called his name Adam. And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways--light and darkness. And I said unto him, This is good for you, but that is bad. ---------------- Enoch In Possession of Adam's Book Moses 6:5, 8--Enoch quotes extensively from Book of Adam (Moses 6:51-68) that was kept by Adam and his posterity. 2 Enoch 33:11-12--[God to Enoch]--For I will give you an intercessor, Enoch; Michael, on account of your handwritings and the handwritings of your fathers--Adam and Seth. They will not be destroyed until the final age. For I have commanded my angels to guard them and to command the things of time to preserve the handwritings of your fathers so that they might not perish in the impending flood. --------------- Restoration of Book of Enoch Predicted in Enochic Literature 2 Enoch 35:1-3--And I will leave a righteous man (Noah), a member of your tribe, together with all his house, who will act in accordance with my will. And from their seed will arise a generation, the last of many, and very rapacious. And I shall raise up for that generation someone who will reveal to them the books in your handwriting and those of your fathers, by means of which the guardians of the earth will show themselves to the faithful men. And they will be recounted to that generation, and they will be glorified in the end more than at the first. Moses 1:41--(God to Moses) And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men--among as many as shall believe. --------------- Enoch Clothed with Glory Moses 7:3--As I stood upon the mount, I behld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory. 2 Enoch 22:8-10--The LORD said to Micahel, Take Enoch, and extract (him) from the earthly clothing. And anoint him with the delightful oil, and put (him) into the clothes of glory. . . . And I gazed at myself, and I had become like one of the glorious ones, and there was no observable difference. ----------------- Enoch Sees the Saints Arise Moses 7:56--And I heard a loud voice; . . . and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory. 3 Enoch 44:7--I saw the souls of the fathers of the world, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the rest of the righteous, who had been raised from their graves and had ascended to heaven. ----------------- Enoch Sees the Return of Zion From Heaven Moses 7:63--Then shalt thou and all thy city meet them there, and we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other. 1 Enoch 39:1--And it shall come to pass in those days that the elect and holy children will descend from the high heavens, and their seed will become one with the children of men. -------------- A Prison Prepared for the Wicked Moses 7:57--And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remaineder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day. 1 Enoch 10:13-14--In those days they will lead them into the bottom of the fire--and in torment--in the prison where they will be locked up forever. And at the time..., those who collaborated with them will be bound together with them from henceforth unto the end of (all) generations. ----------- Chains of Satan Moses 7:26--And he beheld Satan, and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness. 1 Enoch 53:3-4--So I saw all the angels of plague cooperating and preparing all the chains of Satan. And I asked the angel of peace, who was going with me, For whom are they preparing these chains? -------------- Enoch Acts as Intercessor for Mankind Moses 7:49-50--Enoch . . . cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, . . . Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah? . . . I ask thee . . . that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed. 2 Enoch 18:7--And that is why God has judged them with a great judgment; and they mourn their brothers, and they will be outraged on the great day of the LORD. And I said . . ., I have seen your brothers and their deeds and their torments . . . and I have prayed for them. ----------------- Joseph created a book with claimed to be a restored Book of Enoch. How does it measure up when compared with the Enochic literature that was discovered after Joseph's restoration of the book? Quite nicely.