Doctor Steuss

And as of yet, the evidence points away from him. Scott Lloyd wrote a fantastic article in the Church News (about 3 or so weeks ago) in which he interviewed Turley on the subject. Soon, the Turley et.al. publication will be out (or at least volume 1) and hopefully it will finally put the "Brigham was behind it" theories to rest. This is far from hidden (same with the translation method). I know of two Ensign articles that have spoken about it (and I think there was a conference talk that mentioned it as well).

Don't listen to him Dr. S...he has a cat, her name is Sassy, he is still in denial about her, but she loves him anyway!!!!We here are all trying to get him to come to grips with his cat/denial/dependency problems. Pray for him, wouldja? LOL! The lesser known book of Amos: Will a [cat meow] in the forest, when he hath no [Dr. T]? will a young [cat] cry out of his den, if he have [no Dr. T. Lovin']?

Indeed.

Sorry, this is a long post... I posted this quote in another thread (for another topic) but it is much better suited for this one: This is a quote from Ruben J. Clark (as cited in the Autumn 1981 issue of Dialogue -- a really good read for a history of the WoW). "...the Church cannot change the laws of God. They stand immutable. We may change the rules; we may say that a drunkard... [or] he who drinks tea and coffee may go into the temple. These rules we may change. But we cannot change the biological law that he who uses narcotics must pay the penalty somehow, somewhere, sometime...." Someone mentioned Brigham and a conference, so I thought I'd post a source for that as well (while it's at my finger tips): “President Young rose to put the motion and called on all the sisters who will leave off the use of Tea, Coffee, etc., to manifest it by raising the right hand; seconded and carried. And then put the following motion; calling on the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of Tobacco, Whiskey and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom to manifest in it like manner, which was carried unanimously." Next he is reported to have said... "Those who go with me, will keep the Word of Wisdom, and if the High Priests, the Seventies, the Elders, and others will not serve the Lord, we will sever them from the Church. I will draw the line and know who is for the Lord and who is not, and those who will not keep the Word of Wisdom, I will cut off from the Church;…” From the Frontier Guardian, Kanesville, Iowa, Vol. III, no. 22 (November 28, 1851) However, according to some research there has never been an official vote to change it from "counsel" to "command" (and I believe this is where Ruben J. Clark's quote adds insights as to "rules" and "laws.") In fact, the first president of the Church to publicly declare the WoW as a commandment seems to be Joseph F. Smith. Also, regarding "Hot Drinks" (and what is meant by it). This is from Joel Hills Johnson's Autobiography: I was with Joseph Smith, the Prophet, when the Word of Wisdom was given by revelation from the Lord [D&C 89], February 27, 1833, and, I think, I am the only man now living who was present. I was then thirty one years of age, and had used tobacco somewhat extravagantly for fifteen years. I always used some strong drink, and tea and coffee. I knew that God had spoken and condemned the use of these things, and, being determined to live by every word that proceeded from His mouth, I laid them all aside, and have not used them since. I well remember that, soon after the publication of the Word of Wisdom, the same excuse was made, by some of the people, for drinking tea and coffee that is now made--that hot drinks did not mean tea and coffee. On a Sabbath day, in the July following the giving of the revelation, when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said `hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. "The Lord was showing us what was good for man to eat and drink. Now, what do we drink when we take our meals? "Tea and coffee. Is it not? "Yes; tea and coffee. "Then, they are what the Lord meant when He said `hot drinks.'" Brother Hyrum Smith spoke to the same effect. Personally, I think one of the most interesting verses of the WoW is verse 4. I think it illustrates why G-d saw fit to give this to us: "...In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation."

Come on now, it’s too late in the day to make me think deeply Honestly, I’m not sure. I’m going to have to meditate on this one a bit. (Thank you for getting my noggin going -- what a fantastic question [one that I’ve never really thought about]). For quite a while, I thought that perhaps the Krino judgment was reserved for unbelievers only. However fairly recently I stumbled across several verses that utilize Krino (or a derivative) when speaking of believers. Maybe I need to go back and re-examine those verses to find if they necessarily point in the direction of believers, or if there’s another way to look at them. Thank you again, Stu

Thank you for the warm welcomes. Thus far I think there is a definite possibility that I’ll get addicted. This forum is much less confrontational/controversial than those I usually participate on. It’s kind of a breath of fresh air.

Just one more thought regarding the two judgments (Bema and Krino). If there are two judgments, then logically there would be four rewards and/or destinations. Pass Bema and pass Krino = Place #1 (Perhaps Celestial Kingdom?) Pass Bema and fail Krino = Place #2 (Perhaps Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom?) Fail Bema and pass Krino = Place #3 (Perhaps Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom?) Fail Bema and fail Krino = Place #4 (Perhaps Outer Darkness?) Just something to dwell upon… BTW (for clarification): Bema and Krino are basically the two Greek words used for “judgment” in the NT. CrimsonKairos, Thank you for the Alma scripture. clay, Currently, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds the keys of the priesthood and the authority to officiate saving ordinances/covenants. Perhaps this will help with your question: D&C 76

Hi Dr. T (it’s like a PhD or medical convention in here), As I currently understand things (my understanding is constantly in flux though), the Bema judgment is that in which believers (and only believers) appear before the judgment seat of Christ. This will most likely occur shortly (or right after) death. Although as far as LDS theology is concerned, it might be later as there is the potential for "believers" to be won in the afterlife. The next (Krino) is basically expressed well in the parable of the sheep and goats. This is the judgment of works. Both believers and non believers receive this judgment. As to when this occurs, my belief is that it will most likely occur after the Millennium. The last of which (the third one I added into via “edit”) might be that in which death, etc. are “thrown into the Lake of Fire.”

Ah, but which judgment is that? Bema or Krino? Edited to add (I can never seem to get it all out in the first go): I have recently been toying with the idea of a third judgment though -- the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation).

In the late 50's a GA (sorry, don't have a name) introduced this quote and incorrectly attributed it to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith never said anything remotely like this (or else he and Sidney might have tried to off themselves after their vision... ) Edited to add: OOPS!!! Sorry, I should have read on before commenting. I see that Smiley Mostly Molly and CrimsonKairos already addressed this. I will now cower in shame...

Ah, another familiar face (I think I saw a post by johndoe and another by Dale in some threads). -------- I'm LDS. I have my days of disbelief (but they're more-so a disbelief in G-d's existence in liue of the authenticity of the LDS faith). It's strange... but when I believe in G-d, I believe in Mormonism (there never seems to be any other logical conclusion). Such is life. I like holding hands, and walks on the beech and my likes are… wait, wrong message board. I am a BIC but still waiting to be “converted” (I’m sure I’ll get my witness one of these days, but it hasn’t happened yet). I guess that’s about all. I look forward to having yet another message board consume my life.

LOL! Yes, I was released from banishment and allowed to walk amongst the saints once again (I feel like Martin Harris)... Indeed, that does give me faith. :)

This is a quote from Ruben J. Clark (as cited in the Autumn 1981 issue of Dialogue). He was speaking of the Word of Wisdom in particular, but I think his words regarding rules and laws can be applied elsewhere as well. "...the Church cannot change the laws of God. They stand immutable. We may change the rules; we may say that a drunkard... [or] he who drinks tea and coffee may go into the temple. These rules we may change. But we cannot change the biological law that he who uses narcotics must pay the penalty somehow, somewhere, sometime...." Rules can and will change. But the laws of G-d are immutable.

As my good friend "consiglieri" once said on another message board: "I am 47-years old, and after having lived more than half my life, I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that having faith in Christ may be the most difficult work of all." It can especially be difficult for individuals such as me. I am one of those D&C 46:14 people. I'm just grateful I have people like my parents and siblings whom I trust and love, and can "believe on their words." D&C 46:13-14 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

My opinion: Sanctification is an event. Justification is a process. Salvation is the place where Sanctification and Justification join in perfect harmony. Edited to add: On a somewhat side note, the Greek word pistis (the word translated “faith”) has a connotation of fidelity, loyalty and trust. To have pistis in Christ, one must follow Him.

The review from FAIR that Dale mentioned is a good resource (BTW, don’t know if you’re my same RLDS/CoC brother from Mormonapologetics… if you are, nice running into you here). I noticed that there have been quite a few reviews linked, and I thought I might as well pile a few more on. By far, one of the most thorough would be that of Nibley’s son-in-law: Peterson Review Also, here is the family’s response: Nibley Family Responds And here is Kent Jackson’s review (a shorter read than that of Peterson): Jackson's Review And here is Greg’s review (frequent readers of FARMS review might remember Greg for his review of Bagley’s book): Taggart Review In my opinion, Martha is indeed a victim. But she is a victim of poor pseudo-psychology. My heart goes out to her and her family and I hope that one day they are able to find peace.