Fether

(Posted in wrong section, my bad)

Not everyone who wants to learn if this is true or not is obssesed with one day being an all powerful super god that can create worlds and Im not so much arguing for the doctrine that we can create worlds, im totally fine with that not being the case. I guess what really gets me riled up is the fact that there seems to be clear contradictions when it comes to this topic... and no one seems to care. I'm not suggesting there is some flaw in the doctrine that the church is trying to hurry, but rather ai don't understand something and I want to know what it is. #1 http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/frequently-asked-questions 12. Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”? No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). #2 https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. there are other quotes from LDS sources that back both sides (many of the ones for creation being from apostles back in the old day that we claim as being non-doctrinal (which I also don't understand (NOT ARGUING AGAINST! Just don't understand).Many also being from more modern sources). but again... I'm not trying to convince anyone of the doctrine... just trying to make sense if the contradiction.

I mostly agree with you Vort! But there are a few truths that we do know for sure that tend to be controversial tithe Christian world. 1. We have potential to be like Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father is God. We have potential to be God. Therefore we can become Gods. (All my future arguement can heroes back to this) 2. We will be able to have spirit children just like Heavenly Father had us and his had him (assuming we are righteous in this life). 3. There will be, for those worthy, some powers of creation in the realm of planets. After all, Christ created the earth under the direction of Heavenly Father. “In the ultimate and final sense of the word, the Father is the Creator of all things. That he used the Son and others to perform many of the creative acts, delegating to them his creative powers, does not make these others creators in their own right, independent of him. He is the source of all creative power, and he simply chooses others to act for him in many of his creative enterprises” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 63). there are probably others, but I can't think of them. Number 3 in particular tends to be a controversial one due to the cartoony image the world gives it. And it most definitely is not the main reason why we want to become like Heavenly Father. That last point is not and never should be the driving motive for righteousness. Eternal families is and should be our focus. Little tiny alarm bells in my mind goes off when I read "We just don't know". I feel like there are a lot of things we can know, but because they are not gospel principles that can be read verbatim in a gospel essentials book, we say "we just don't know". “God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them” - Joseph Smith. If we take a look at the talk I posted above and discourses like the King Follet Sermon, there is clearly doctrine that is not plainly spoken about in basic gospel books, but yet still exist and are true. But to your point, we speculate a lot in other subjects dealing with our potential destiny. I myself, my once mission President and other members of the church I hold in high esteem often say things that are speculative. I don't believe we should suppress these discussions or avoid them, doing so would suppress the "pondering" and the "working it out in your mind" part of receiving revelation. After all, where would we be if Joseph Smith or any other prophet/apostle were to say that when something they didn't understand arose? I believe the point we need to avoid is standing by these speculated beliefs as concrete, sound, LDS accepted beliefs and that anyone who doesn't agree is uninspired or doesn't know what they believe in. This mindset is wrong, but I also do believe that discussing them openly can lead us to further truth, or correction of error (assuming we are humble enough to accept it). After all, I feel like that is what we are doing here on this forum. Again, I agree with you mostly, just a small anti-we-just-don't-know part of me needs to speak up. I always appreciate your comments Vort and love how bold you are without being overbearing. and I say these things in the-... errr

I have heard that a lot. "They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done." - Gospel Fundamentals chap. 36 I know we don't necessarily use this book in church classes anymore... but this is still on LDS.org. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng I think the concept that we "get our own planet" is wrong in the sense that God doesn't have a stash of planets he is handing out. The church has ALWAYS spoken out against the phrase "we get our own planet", but never against the concept of creating worlds for our spirit offspring. sorry to detract from actual topic

“As man now is, God once was: “As God now is, man may be.” - Lorenzo Snow I think it is safe to say that if God was one a man like us, we can be as much a God as he is. Also, check out this is a fantastic talk about this very subject. @Vort I hope your not suggesting that such topics are unknowable or that they aren't worth studying. But if your comment is pointed toward the great amount of rediculous and false doctrine on the subject, then I agree with your comment

@Eowyn I tend to get irritated and frustrated with people I deem as "unintelligent", "irrational" or any other negative expletive. This mostly comes out when someone is doing something that is clearly against church doctrine, but they fight and argue that, in fact, it is church doctrine and that I am just a fanatic or I am taking things too far. The other day I was wondering how I could stop both becoming angry and how to stop pegging people in such a way. I came to the conclusion that instead of getting angry with people who don't understand the doctrine or teachings of the church, or who just ignore them all together. Instead of getting angry, I remind myself of the blessings they are missing out on and how much better their lives and families would be if they would just live those standards. Instead of getting angry, I now try to become sympathetic and sorrowful for their choices

@Carborendum just some thoughts to consider: * Is our faith in the healing power of blessings, or in Christ's will to make us happy? I make this point because I have met people who, because of deaths in their family, believe God hates them or doesn't exist. Death is not a bad thing. Death is only the passing of one state of existence to another. * Paul and Pres. Winford Woodruff healed men whom he never even met with a piece of fabric (https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/acts/chapter-33-acts-16-20?lang=eng (search: handkerchief)) * God will not do for man what we can do for ourselves. As technology increases, the need for miraculous healings decrease because we can now do it ourselves (which is really a miracle in itself). I'm not suggesting that we don't need God, but that we no longer need to rely on him in order to survive an infected wound. * this talk may shed some light on your question. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng

I don't think anyone argues that these are not the last days. What are we doing with our lives to show we are ready for it??

The responsibility of the source rests on the shoulders of the one sharing the fact. You can't just say something and then tell everyone else to find the sources themselves. That's how fake news, gossip and rumors are made.

Christ did keep every higher law, we constantly call him the Great Exemplar. We always ask ourselves WWJD (but maybe not exactly like that)... celestial marriage is the highest law... I don't see why not... but regardless of whether he was married on Earth or not, he will have to be eventually. God has all power because he is in perfect harmony with all Law (d&c student institute manual)... if Christ wants to be like Heavenly Father, he too will need to be married.

I agree, the hard part is when you believe you are square with God... but really not (I'm speaking generally about sin and not calling out people who chose not to serve). We can't extend judgement toward people, but can we let them believe that the sin they are committing is ok? how do we do that without coming across as judging? Should we even worry about coming across as being judgmental even when we aren't?

So I'm pretty sure we have already addressed this in earlier comments. I'm not generalizing. I know very well people want to but because of physical limits they can't and they are an exception.

I just think that it is wrong to actively choose not to serve when you are mentally and physically able to. Personality, personal testimony, finances, sports, marriage, or attitude should not keep any young man from a mission. Health (mental and physical) and worthiness should be only things keeping you from serving.

You can still do a lot of good by not serving a mission and doing something else with your time, but a right does not correct a wrong. The commandment from The prophets is to serve a full time mission, not to go do missionary work in whatever way you want (that is a separate commandment all together). Again, not serving does not mean you are a bad person. Kinda like smoking a cigarette or breaking the Law of Chastity doesn't make you a bad person. But they are commandments from God.

@MormonGator I disagree with all of this. I went in my mission because I knew I was suppose to. I felt that if I didn't llgo, I would be ostrisized from the LDS community (which really isn't true). I began serving and within 6 months I was giving my all and loved every second of it. i also had another friend who committed just about every sin you could to keep you from a mission and only went to avoid judgement from family. He said he lied his way through every interview in order to go. When he got out, he had an intense change of heart, confessed to the mission Pres. And later became one of the best Assistants to the President I ever had. If your an arrogant jerk, your going to need to repent of that before entering the celestial kingdom. Same goes for those who are going through the motions. God doesn't only use perfect missionaries who have all the right qualities. He calls us in our weakness and makes those weaknesses strong. That is how miracles are made. I don't believe there is any circumstance besides health (which you should leave to the decision if the general authorities) that should keep a young man from a mission. If I chose not to serve, my weaknesses I had in highschool (such as my aarogance and pride) would still be there and the strengths I have would be non existent.

Is it not a sin. Can a young man choose not to serve a mission and avoid condemnation for the sin?

Yes it's both. The spirit is refined matter (d+c 131:7). To say the spirit has no brain is to suggest a spirit can't think (I feel that way atleast). Also, of you remember when the brother of Jared saw Christ, he was only a spirit at that time, but yet still looked like a man. Our spirits are intact bodies, just finite. I think it is safe to assume Christ, in that spirit form, had all the organs a regular person like you are I have.

I'm not necessarily talking about those that are sent home early for health reasons, but those that don't feel they need to for whatever reason. I also want to premise this with the desire to NOT pass judgement toward those that decide not to go. We all sin in life and choosing to not serve a mission wont keep you out of Celestial Glory. In August 2015, Neil L. Anderson gave a talk titled 'Faith isn't by chance, but by choice' where he gives the following story: A month ago in Brazil, I met Aroldo Cavalcante. He was baptized at age 21, the first member of the Church in his family. His faith burned brightly, and he immediately began preparing to serve a mission. Sadly, Aroldo’s mother was diagnosed with cancer. Three months later, only days before she died, she spoke to Aroldo of her greatest concern: There were no relatives to help. Aroldo would need to take full responsibility for his two younger sisters and his younger brother. He solemnly made this promise to his dying mother. By day he worked in a bank, and at night he attended the university. He continued to keep his baptismal covenants, but his hopes for a full-time mission were gone. His mission would be caring for his family. Months later while preparing a sacrament meeting talk, Aroldo studied the words that Samuel reprovingly spoke to King Saul: “To obey,” he read, “is better than [to] sacrifice.” Aroldo received the seemingly impossible impression that he needed to obey the prophet’s call to serve a mission. Undaunted by the obstacles before him, he moved forward with enormous faith. Aroldo saved every Brazilian cruzeiro he could. At age 23, he received his mission call. He told his brother how much to withdraw each month from his account for the family. Aroldo still did not have enough money to pay the full cost of his mission and the living expenses for his brother and sisters, but with faith he entered the MTC. A week later he received the first of many blessings. The bank that had employed Elder Cavalcante unexpectedly doubled the money he was to receive as he concluded his work. This miracle, along with others, provided the needed income for his mission and his family during his absence. Twenty years later, Brother Cavalcante is now serving as the president of the Recife Brazil Boa Viagem Stake. Looking back, he said of those days, “As I tried to live righteously, I felt the Savior’s love and guidance. My faith grew, allowing me to overcome many challenges.” Aroldo’s faith did not come by chance, but by choice. There are many Christian men and women with deep faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we honor and respect them. While talking about this this with a friend of mine, he said that while on his mission he was training a missionary who said he had a spiritual impression that he neeed to go home. The mission president called them and said "that's funny you got that promoting elder, because the prophet said the spirit told him you were to come here as a missionary." similarily I have known a certain missionary that chose to go home for the same reason and now is anti-Mormon. my last example is an elder I knew that went home early because of severe depression that he had not before experienced, when he got home they found he had a dangerous heart disease that, if left untreated, could had lead to his death. We hear all the time from general authorities of miracle stories where young men sacrarice greatly to serve missions, but never of miracle stories where young men choose not to serve because of sports, music, marriage, etc. often claiming they will do one later as senior missionaries (which I also do not think is ok). Again, I do not wish to pass judgement, but rather recognize the sin for people who may be deciding to serve or not. Many righteous members in this church did not serve (including many mission presidents). I personally believe that regardless of what is going on, you should do everything you can to serve. lastly, the famous quote from Pres. Monsoon. “Every worthy, able young man should prepare to serve a mission. Missionary service is a priesthood duty—an obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much. Young men, I admonish you to prepare for service as a missionary” That is an arguement on what I believe. Does anyone see it differently

Fine >:( thansk everyone for humoring my question

Good ol' Kentucky!!!

That crossed my mind too, but then I thought about hard times in my life that I knew were coming (mission, getting in a roller coaster, etc.). I knew it was coming, but when it happened I panicked. Not suggesting you are wrong, just another potential view. I like to think he did know, that he went in there planning on killing him because he knew there was no other way to get the plates, but didn't know exactly where to go or how it would happen. We are always told as missionaries to have a plan, then follow the spirit as we go... Also... he did draw the blade before the spirit "constrained him". Why else would he draw the blade?

1 Nephi 4:3 "Let us go up; the Lord is able to deliver us, even as our fathers, and to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians."

I can't think of a single doctrinal backing for this.

Regardless if we had the male or female sexual organs are there or not (don't know why they wouldn't be cause we were created spiritually before physically (Moses 3:5)), our gender is eternal. Im a man now, was before birth and will be after death. "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity." - Institute Eternal families Teacher Manual

Personal rebuttals! Maybe God does put us in a body... "the eternal spirit enters the body prior to a normal birth, and therefore that stillborn children will be resurrected" - Bruce R McConkie and not to mention we look like our parents... how does that line up with our spirits looking like our bodies seeing how we have existed for eternity but physical traits weren't developed till earth life??? Did everyone of us all look exactly the same prior to birth??? I don't even know... I'm just ganna leave this discussion x)