wenglund

I used to believe the same way until Jeff and Matt helped me to recognize the significance of Isaac's arrested sacrifice as contrasted with Christ's unarrested sacrifice. This means that Isaac only symbolized Christ up to a point, whereas he fully symbolizes those who are "born from above." This means that Abraham, the angel, and the ram in the thicket, are each symbolic representations of Christ. Can you see why? Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Excellent! Here is something else to consider that is along the lines of the "sinner" that Vort mentioned: According to Jeff Bradshaw and Matt Bowen, in their Interpreter article on "By the Blood are Ye Sanctified," an additional layer of symbolism, and one I hadn't heard or thought of before, is that Isaac represents us, the followers of Christ, the sons and daughters of God, or in other words all of mankind who are willing to obey and who wish to be "born again" or "born from above" and return to the Father--i.e. enter into the kingdom of heaven They quote NIbley as saying,L "...Then the last thing is 'and by the blood ye are sanctified.'125 You can’t sanctify yourself but by completely giving up life in this world, which means suffering death, which means the shedding of blood. … [T]he shedding of blood is your final declaration that you are willing to give up this life for the other." They then went on to suggest: "As we will discuss in more detail later on, the temple sacrifices of ancient Israel — which pointed back to Isaac’s arrested sacrifice and pointed forward to Jesus’ unarrested sacrifice — the people were to “see” their own arrested sacrifice and redemption, having been spared the shedding of their own blood through the atonement of Christ. " Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I have a question for those participating so far ( @JohnsonJones, @Rob Osborn, @Fether, and @Vort), what and/or who is being symbolized when Isaac was being offered as a sacrifice? This, too, is one of my all time favorites. I ask because I recently heard a new twist on the symbolism. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

In Ether 3, I think it significant that the brother of Jared went to the top of an exceedingly high mountain (Shelem). Mountains are not only symbolic of temples, but also as a means of getting closer to God, in this case exceedingly close.. On the top of Shelem, the brother of Jared presumably gathered material (rock), which he then molten into 16 "stones" (two for each of the eight vessels) that were made thereby "white and clear, and transparent as glass." While on the top of Shelem, the brother of Jared prayed to the Lord. Among many miraculous things resulting therefrom, the Lord touched the stones and they became a source of light. I take from this the symbolic meaning that prophets on earth, such as the brother of Jared, gather men (rocks), and through the gospel they are changed (molten) to become new men (changed from rocks to stone) and made pure and righteous (white and clear). And the prophets pray over their flock, and eventually the hand of Christ the Lord touches them and they become a source of light as well. Powerful. What is your take on this and other symbolic passages of scripture? Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What about the climate back then? From what I understand, the heartland region was much cooler back in that day, being in the process of coming out of an earlier ice age several thousand years before, where the glaciers were up to two miles thick. Perhaps the area in question was still under some glacial snow? At the very least, from 600 BC to 400 AD, winters in that region must have been colder and more snowy than it is today, making it less likely, assuming a Heartland model, that the laminates would be running around in near naked attire as depicted in the OP picture. With this in mind, factor in the Jaredites who came to the Americas about 200 years before Lehi. Burrr! Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am wondering if you could have saved yourself considerable time and effort, and provided a more authoritative response, by simply posting the The Family: A Proclamation to the Word, which surprisingly, and as best I could tell, you didn't cite in any of your articles. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Some people, at times, mis-think they are in a position to speak for the general church body, when really they are only correctly speaking for themselves. Granted, I may be guilty of this on occasion, though I try consciously to avoid doing so. Thank,s, -Wade Englund-

Yes, indeed, from beginning to end, the Book of Mormon speaks to the repeated cycle of humility and righteousness and prosperity to pride and evil and wars and destruction, which is certainly indicative of the pattern and need for our continued repentance and enduring to the end. More specific, though, this morning's reading for me was Ether Chapter 2, which impressed upon me the multi-layers of symbolism in the construction of the barge (one layer in relation to our own bodies) and the need for external light of non-earthly origin. And, I am excited for tomorrows reading when I can bask in the symbolism-rich layers of the touch of Christ to the stones (of our hearts), thereby bringing light into darkness. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I just came across, or rather had opened to my understanding, a new favorite symbolism-rich passage. Actually, it is the first part of the Gospels--particularly John, which covers the narrative of Jesus' time in mortality from his birth to his interaction with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well. (I had initially intended to post this on the Come Follow Me study forum, but it doesn't fit a given lesson as structured on that forum, so I figured it would be appropriate posting it here.) In addition to the multi-layers of symbolism for each of the individual events reported during the aforementioned time frame, it occurred to me that they, together, subtly teach sequentially, the Plan of Progression. Here is how--at least as I have come to see it: The period from Christ's birth to his baptism represents the pre-existence, where Jesus' birth symbolizes the birth of all of us as spirit children of the Father, Jesus' teaching in the temple symbolizes the Heavenly Council where the Son goes about his Father's business and presents his Father's plan, Jesus growing in knowledge and stature and favor with God prior to his mortal mission, symbolizes our growth as pre-mortal spirits preparatory for entering our own mortal missions , where we are enabled to continued in growth and so forth. John's preparatory work and Jesus' baptism symbolize the creation--baptism is the means of bringing about a new creature or creation. The period following Christ's baptism to the conversation at the well, represent mortality and the application of the Gospel on earth, where: Jesus' journey into the wilderness to be tempted, is symbolic of each of us leaving heaven and descending to fallen earth, there to enter mortality and be tested. Jesus' first public miracle of turning water to wine symbolizes the need for those of us who sin during mortality to undergo a transformation (from the old man of sin to the new man of righteousness), or in other words, it symbolizes the first principle of the Gospel--i.e. faith, in he who has the saving power to transform us. Jesus clearing the temple symbolizes our repentance, where sin is driven out and the temple of our bodies are made again a place for the Father, through His Spirit, to dwell, and where the ordinances of salvation may again be rightly performed. Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes our being "born again" through baptism. Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well symbolizes our receiving the living waters of the Holy Ghost The period from the clearing of the temple to the women at the well, also represents the afterlife and immortality, where: Jesus' clearing of the temple symbolizes death, where the corruptible body is "driven out" or separated from the temple of the spirit body. Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes the resurrection, where the spirits of men are born again into glorified and eternal bodies. and finally, Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well is symbolic of the living water of eternal life,. Granted, it is possible that I may be reading too much into this. But, I don't think so. It seems to all fit rather nicely in my mind, and in a way that is quite moving, if not mind blowing. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As I study the scriptures, particularly using the Church's new home study method, and utilize the many resources for insights provided by the Church and its members, it has become increasingly apparent that the Son out-Jews the Jews. By this I mean that where the Jews are known for their double entendre and symbolism, the words and deeds of the Son are oft packed with many layers of meaning and symbolism. My desire for this thread is for participants to describe their favorite, and perhaps mind blowing multi-layered meaning and symbol-steeped passages of scripture.. This has the potential of being very interesting, at least to me, if not also develop our skills in coming to understand sacred writ after the manner of the Jews. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Actually, it doesn't make sense to YOU, whereas it does make sense to others of us (as I painstakingly explained earlier in the thread) as well as the Brethren. Likewise, other policies the Brethren have changed don't make sense to YOU, whereas it does to them and others of us. So, it very much is about YOU. It is YOUR opinion. Have YOU considered the distinct probability that YOU and YOUR opinion are the one not making sense rather than the Brethren? For my part, I was graciously attempting to help YOU to not only see the sense, but if that failed, provide YOU with a way to adapt while YOU don't make sense, or until YOU come to see the sense. Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

By "caught in the past" I mean they haven't progressed to a more complete understanding of the Plan of Salvation available since 1832 -1835 (when D&C 76 was revealed and first published in the Book of Commandments). Their view of Salvation predates the greater light and knowledge received in 1832 So, I see us as say much the same thing. But, if how you say it works for you, then great. [thumbs up] Thanks, -Wade Englund-

My unwitting irony detector is spinning like a fan, which isn't good during cold weather. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't know that either of us are in a position to speak on behalf of "we as a church," no matter what our prodigious egos may tell us. However, speaking for myself, and what I have observed on this board and elsewhere, there are members, me somewhat included, who not only fail to fully understand that baptism is a gate to a path, but also how the cleansing that is a part of the baptismal gate, itself, is a form of salvation, let alone what all baptism symbolizes. The same seems to be the case with the notion of "rebirth", "born again," or "born from above," which, interestingly enough, is the subject of this weeks Come Follow Me lesson. Yet, the most serious deficit in understand that I have observed, approaching Nicodemus magnitude, is how certain members fail to grasp how this all relates to the resurrection and multiple kingdoms therein. They don't get how this all points not only to Christ, but his creation of new eternal creatures They are not only 15 years in the past, but seem stick in the binary Protestant view of the afterlife that has been around since ancient times, though they suppose themselves to be something of an expert with knowledge and truth exceeding church leaders and general membership. Even so, as the saying goes, there are some people you just cant reach. Thanks, -Wade Enguojnd-

At times I, too, have had silly thoughts cross my mind in response to changes within the Church. including thoughts prompted by an overly narrow reading of scriptures. Maybe there is a bit of the autism in me that renders me resistant to change. However, I try not to be too hard on myself, and see such circumstances instead as cause for increased humility and an opportunity to overcome some of my evident weaknesses. In fact, I wonder if some changes are made just to get me to be more humble and introspective, though that, too, may be just another of my silly thoughts. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perhaps it is different for you than it is for me. I tend to bring the Spirit with me from Sacrament meeting. So, the so-called "axing" isn't the least problematic for me. If it still is for you, maybe you could work on bringing the Spirit with you and/or say a silent prayer yourself to evoke the Spirit in the classroom . I don't wish to see your spiritual experience diminished because of what the Brethren were inspired to do for the rest of us. Than ks, -Wade Englund-

My interest is in the reasons Jesus did what he did with Lazarus, rather than why the corrupt Jews back in the day may have wished to kill Lazarus. In other words, there is a wealth of authoritative things for me to learn that are pertinent to the gospel that I find little or no motivation delving into the non-authoritative and impertinent things, even if somewhat interesting and popular. Besides, there is a bit of a merchandising feel to the NDE movement that I am suspicious of given this weeks lesson on clearing the temple. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That was clear enough before. Perhaps my response needs a bit more explaining. As with other aspects of the gospel, it is uncertain whether children who die before 8-years-old, need the ordinances. Unlike us, they may have progressed far enough as spirits to only require a body. Perhaps the same is true for the things needed to be learned by way of the body. It is also possible that they may gain the needed experience once they are resurrected and have a body with which to learn as described. Either way, the fact that some children don't learn through the body while in mortality, doesn't make wrong what I suggested about what is needed for the rest of us, any more than young children not needing salvific ordinances makes wrong the belief that the ordinances are needed for the rest of us.; Hopefully, that is clear. If not, try focusing on the rule rather than the exceptions. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I wonder why the Savior of the world didn't think of that when he established his 1st century church as well as his restored church in these latter days? I suspect it has something to do with NDE's not being all that relevant, let alone authoritative, to the saving plan of God, regardless of how interesting and popular they may be--though podcast of gamers, like PewDiePie, number in the tens of millions, but that doesn't mean the Church should follow suit. I suspect also that this post, as well as earlier posts, may be your round-about way of drumming up interest in your pet cause. If so,, it treads precariously close to violating board rules. Thank,s -Wade Englund-

I don't recall ever starting priesthood class with prayer. Granted, a prayer used to be offered during priesthood opening exercises,. However, we no longer have opening exercises. So, in terms of priesthood meetings, the only change is the elimination of opening exercises. I suspect that opening exercises over the last half century or so is a hold-over from the time prior to the consolidated schedule, when morning meetings (priesthood/Relief Society and Sunday School) were separate from the afternoon meeting (Sacrament meeting), and because they were separate, it made sense to open the morning meetings with an opening exercise and prayer as well as the afternoon. Even with the consolidated schedule, it was not uncommon for Wards to begin with priesthood, which likewise made opening exercises reasonable. Now that Sunday meetings have been cut to two hours and standardized with Sacrament Meeting first, opening exercises no longer make sense--with the exception of primary, for its own reasons. So, I don't see the problem. I hope this helps. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Assuming they, unlike us, even need it to work for them, I suspect it does so in much the same way as all the earthly ordinances they died too young to receive. It is covered by the atonement and fulfilled during the afterlife, likely when they are resurrected. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As I understand things, we don't just need a physical body simply for the sake of having a body that will be resurrected. We need a physical body because it give is the ability to learn and understand things for the most part not possible for pre-mortal spirit personages. This principle is born out in various scriptures, many dealing with the need for Christ, himself, to enter mortality for reasons including to learn how to succor those who are tempted and in pain. The physical body, then, which in its own way causes a veil between the Father and mankind, also allows a whole other level of faith needed to comprehend things about God beyond what was possible when He was always before our eyes. It is like fatherhood. One can read about and observe fathers, but it isn't until one becomes a father that one can begin to really comprehend fatherhood. And, for faith to work its full measure, at least for most of us (children who die before 8-years-old, etc.not included), necessitates starting pretty much at ground 0. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For those interested, several of the points above have been poignantly tied into an issue raised by @NeuroTypical regarding the violence in clearing the temple. The discussion is taking place on the Come Follow Me study forum for this weeks lesson (February 11 - 17) It would be good to have added your informative perspectives. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Christ took this one step further by proffering a sign that was of his own choosing and in his due time--i.e. "Destroy this atemple, and in three days I will braise it up." (Jn 2:19) This sign was, in multiple ways,,beyond the comprehension of the Jews, Not only did they not understand that Jesus was speaking of the temple that is his body (a type of which was declared in their own scriptures through the story of Jonah and the whale), but even if they had understood, it is doubtful that they would comprehend how Jesus' resurrection evinced that he was the Son of God, let alone what may be the symbolic relationship between the cleansing of the temple and the resurrection, nor that symbolic relationship applied to more than just Jesus, but applied also to others who would prove themselves to be sons/daughters of God. Perhaps it isn't just the Jews that have not comprehend these things. It may be lost on a number of bible reading Christians as well--some of whom may even be members of the CoJCoLDS. I freely admit that, until recently, I didn't entirely have a clue. And, I suspect that to a point I still don't, but I ave much to learn. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

To underscore the common theme of the temptations (i.e. the determining factor between right and wrong is "God's will") as they relate to events at the start of Jesus' earthly mission (see also my post above), the second temptation relates to the clearing of the temple, if not also the healing of the sick. In both cases, there was the implicit challenge to Jesus' authority and his claim to be the Son of God. And, with both there was the request for a sign, thus putting the Father and Son to the test--i.e. they tempted God. It was as though Satan and the money changers and Jews in the temple were questioning, "Who are you, Jesus of Nazareth?" "Prove to us that you are the Son of God." Christ's implicit reply in each case was to turn the tables and rightly question who were they to question him and his Father. He intimated to they who had openly defied the will of the Father, were in no position to question him who was perfectly obedient to the Father. And, as for a sign being given, that, too, was not their place to ask, but was the purview of the Father. In that regard, the faith-based evidence that he is the Son of God is replete in everything Jesus did and would do. To those with eyes to see and who were worthy and humble enough to receive knowledge of the divinity of Jesus, need not tempt God with requests to turn stones into bread or other signs, or wish to force the Father to intercede were one to purposely put themselves in harms way. Rather, it would be manifest when Jesus turned the water to wine, and purified the temple, and healed the sick and afflicted--particularly those whose illness was no fault of their own. Again, that which is right and good comes invariably by humbly and in faith subjecting oneself to the will of God, rather than through impertinent demands born of selfish desires and a false sense of self aggrandizement. Thanks, -Wade Englund-