Alex

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/05/the-creation?lang=eng&para=p5#note40- The Son created the earth etc and the heavens however both Son and the Father created man. "Gods": Abraham 4:26 “So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them."

The teacher's manual gives references for the scriptures and revelations: https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual/lesson-5-jesus-christ-was-jehovah-of-the-old-testament?lang=eng

Hmm, first up, is it possible Zil that 'they were obeyed' means that the Gods watched over or observed to make sure what they had organized, didn't go off and mutate or adapt ? in other words the Gods directed the cycle of life so it would replicate itself into the future, for each generation of us to enjoy and live from? By setting the cycle of life on the earth to be self-fulfilling, it requires no oversight and therefore would require oversight only to make certain it was set to run properly from the start. 'Obey' not as a literal verb but obey as in check the course thereof. I'm really enjoying this discussion Zil but I have an invite to a BBQ and Settlers of Catan day beginning in 20 minutes. I'll come back to this thread later tonight. I'm not shooting you down in any way btw- just want to flesh out further the possibilities. ((What you are suggesting runs very close to Spencer's account (Vision's of Glory) of the people within the earth who talk to inanimate objects and ask the objects spiritually to alter their state of being. Q- Do I believe in that account? A- Not too sure about the mysterious lost peoples of God within the earth but willing to listen to how this spirit convincing and spirit commanding works.))

No, that whole inanimate objects as having spirits is animism. The Japanese go in for that stuff like crazy- they build cars with happy faces formed from the headlights and grills in order to tap the Japanese people's widespread cultural beliefs regarding animism. There's no doctrinal basis for objects having spirits unless you interpret "all things created spiritually" to literally mean all organized matter has a spirit. It gets trickier because the question arises as to matter itself (atomic matter) having an individual spirit. This then creates a problem as I see it for it means that when Christ formed us spiritually, he would had to have done so from many smaller spirits (because spirit is fine matter) and I don't like that idea- it just feels too weird. Apparently our spirits cannot be un-created.

Hmm, the earth has a spirit according to D&C.In that revelation 'a' is one spirit. It's a very complex belief you have there Zil. Do you want share more of it with us?

A step closer. Yes, it's just analysis but good journalism is about putting pieces together- for example, recall a Time magazine article back about a year before Russia invaded Afghanistan that predicted the soviet invasion. Hmm, and on the topic of good journalism, there were plenty of articles across European newspapers that noted the rise of nazism in Germany before WW2- 90,000 Jews escaped Germany and Austria prior to the holocaust. Anyway, the rise of the A/C is not going to be a glaring and obvious ascension to power. It will be methodically deceitful and many will see good before the nightmare begins http://mondoweiss.net/2017/12/dangerous-netanyahu-planning/

Pertwee fan here as the music was creepier back then and he used to do his own stunts- he wasn't like that eccleston poser who whined about the grueling filming schedule. Best ep: 'Blink' is undoubtedly the best ep of all time- if you want to really freak children out for Halloween, have them watch Blink in an empty house with statues in it. Worst character: Alpha Centauri from the Tom Baker years. Worst device: 'Timey-whimey' machine. I mean really, what a puerile name. The producers wanted to insult our intelligence by naming it that but all they succeeded in doing was ruining an episode. Worst doctor: colin baker or mc gann's Canadian tele-movie doctor. Really, really not looking forward to a female doctor- I think that has ruined the franchise for me after all these years... the revolutionary council of thought police might as well have decided that Santa Claus needs to be a woman as well. There are plenty of Dr Who fans who are indeed LDS. Hmm, under the sub-heading Recovery on wiki, two lost episodes were found in an LDS meetinghouse library in the early 1980's. Of course they were Dalek episodes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_missing_episodes Anyway, where are you? Not too many Dr Who fans in the USA as van halen killed the brain cells in males there while oprah pickled the minds of American women.

Pertwee or Baker ?

D&C 132: 19, 20. Verse twenty states "Gods" in no uncertain terms. edit Here: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. ((I reckon the missionaries are good for Faith, Repentance, Baptism, TGOTHG and "back home..." but not too much else))

Hmm, praising the spirit requires some detailed instruction. I shall pray and ask for this to be discussed in conference. I would pray and ask for the spirit to guide me on how to praise him - a bit odd, yes- but he tends to give me impressions or feelings rather than specific detail. Yes, he can give specific detail on specific things but it requires so much work on my behalf... it's just much easier to request a spiritually attuned apostle answer such a query.

Hmm, those scriptures in the BOM regarding praise for the spirit have me wondering now. I AM ETERNALLY GRATEFUL for the Holy Ghost, but have I praised him or even been shown how to praise him? yeah, scratching my head a bit there for I am blind on knowing how to praise him as is instructed there.

Yeah, I've heard some LDSaints play down the facts of the OT before though. The last member I heard say something like what Traveler has said, also went on to talk about the 'figurative bible' while loudly proclaiming that he was a practicing vegetarian.

There were periods during the creation (Genesis) where that is correct. That doesn't account for the 3,700 (approx) years of exile from the Garden of Eden right up to the final records in the OT. Moses wasn't in a temporary state of sleep nor Noah or the many prophets and kings of Israel who were commanded to kill, or use the power of god to kill. I'm trying to read you here, not attacking you in anyway. I think you're in love with the Old Testament as primarily being a metaphor instead of it being a collection of actual records- saying it is metaphor makes the deaths of the innocents fit with the God/Life view you hold. I put it to you that the OT are records that you don't appreciate because they represent the old pre Christ laws of Moses. What you don't acknowledge is the modern Church performing miracles, to bring down the wrath of God. Hmm, you like Christ washing the feet of others, but not Christ dusting his feet, is that correct?

Oh no. Traveler. With the exception of naming satan as a serpent (a metaphorical serpent) instead of a spirit being, so much is literal in the Old Testament. If you think about the chrono order of the old testament the next two records are the flood and the tower, which are both real, yet along with Adam and Eve and the creation, they are the most disputed accounts of the entire old testament by supposed scholars: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the-flood-and-the-tower-of-babel?lang=eng Then we come to Abraham and on to Jacob (Israel) and then down to Moses and that's where the deaths of 'innocents' really plays out. I have no problem with innocent people being taken by the Lord if it makes way for the bigger plan and I put it to you that most of the people on the face of the earth in Noah's time were guilty of ignorance- they weren't working against the plan, they just didn't want to know. Q- Is that sin? A- Yes it is. But the removal of the ignorant through death is something many in this era can't stomach. I totally get what you are saying about sin being the reason God deals out death however in the Old Testament, God takes mortal lives for minor sins or for the fact that some innocent people are merely in the way of the plan moving forward. Plenty of GOOD PEOPLE (by our standards today) die by the swords of Israel, under the command of prophets and so too, plenty die by miracles of God. Onto Ananias and Saphira in the new testament. If you read the commentary on wikipedia, the account of their deaths really upsets some bible scholars. I imagine it does so because once again, from our tolerant perspective, the sin of Ananias and his wife isn't so bad as to warrant death. Hmm, I put it to you Traveler that your idea of sin warranting death is based on your modern ideas of crime and justice. That is to say 'the punishment fits the crime' and we in our modern civilized state only give the chair/noose etc to those who murder, which is just according to us. But when it comes to God's plan, God decides when and where to punish the sinner. # God may take a life for no other reason than that good person being in the way of the plan- that applies to all, including the prophets of old and even today as well. I recall one latter day prophet stating "...over my dead body..." with regards to his opposition to a repeatedly called for policy change, before he was taken from the earth 2 years later.

yes, as long as they are 3 distinct persons it makes sense. It's when the believer says they are one being that it doesn't make sense.

I love the Old Testament more than any of the other standard works. Yes, there are weird customs all through it but I find the constant fails within Israel reinforce the message- It's either we learn from the mistakes of others or we learn from our own mistakes, and I prefer the former. I have a thick comic bible from a born again church which I mark and hope to one day licence and publish as an unofficial JST LDS comic bible- it's a long term, down the track ambition. Oh, and on the subject of God dealing out death directly, let's not forget those two in the New Testament- Ananias and Sapphira. Hmm, and in this dispensation, let's not forget the fate of the persecutors of Joseph Smith.

If you believe this, how do you reconcile Christ talking to the father?

It's a cute cartoon but the fact is that righteous intermediate judgement is something we all have to do in this life. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng "...we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts... " is just one bit of advice from that talk.

Are you judging me?

Oh, good to know. I honestly thought modulism was purely related to design / architecture in 3D environments. Have never heard it applied to that analogy. Hmm but now I think of it, modules in courses at university etc.

Hmm, my Aunt was sadly a godless & hedonistic lesbian. She was just plain bitter and that bitterness defined many of the choices she made in her life. She detested the LDS church and her opposition, while a deeply held belief as you say, is still pointless if she doesn't believe in what we do in LDS temples.

On the subject of the trinity, the catholic water/ice/steam analogy shows God as an individual who takes on different physical forms. I've never liked that understanding of God, because it means he talks to himself in the NT for one thing but it's the whole costume change notion I detest- I find that idea far more confusing than the LDS view of the Godhead. Good old Donny Osmond said it succinctly when it comes to the LDS church: " we do in fact believe in the Trinity, but it is the clarification of the separate and distinct individuals within the Trinity that separates us from others."

Hmm, my Mum's sister was anti LDS church and she opposed my mum submitting the work of their grandmother to the temple for a sealing. The thing that makes no sense though is that my Aunt didn't believe in the church at all- so what are her grounds for opposing it, when she didn't believe in any of it anyway? Whilst I pity the the life of the woman Johnson Jones is related to, I don't know as how listening to objections of living family members is beneficial- the sealings are accepted or rejected in the after life, after all, and if you think the LDS ordinations are bunk, then what does it matter ?

Well, Bruce R. McConkie said in Mormon Doctrine regarding the Holy Ghost, ‘In this dispensation, at least, nothing has been revealed as to his origin or destiny; expressions on these matters are both speculative and fruitless’. What's a bit amusing about that "speculative and fruitless" quote from Bruce is that he spent the good part of a day (even missed his flight because he was so caught up in a conversation on this topic with a friend in Melbourne - he was a mission pres and high councilor etc etc etc there) as the subject of the Holy ghost can get a bit err, intriguing. See, the Holy Ghost will at some point, be born and receive a body as all who accepted the plan must. Where that is and when that is, is unknown to us. However, this leads to the intriguing part- his role now is as comforter to provide light when the FATHER and the SON are not present. He is neither great architect nor builder nor redeemer, nor judge. The intriguing part is that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a defined role once he receives a body. Is he therefore a part of the Godhead once he receives a body or has his destiny, within the Godhead, been fulfilled ? Yep, I'm not going to speculate but the scriptures (as far as I know) don't point to any other role for him other than providing light, in this mortal probation, on the work of the father and the son.

Yeah, It's an odd one and while it comes up in topic with her now and then, I don't really pursue it with her in conversation in order to somehow 'fix it'. From my perspective, there are all sorts of people in the church who are in personal situations in which they, for whatever reason, don't always fit into the neatly defined lines. Be it the single orphan who is supposed to be singing the hymn 'families can be together' and he doesn't utter the line 'I have a family here on earth' or the good and dutiful LDS wife who is put aside by a husband who marries a younger woman etc. It all boils down to faith in a just god. Hmm, I honestly didn't know about deceased women being sealed to any and all husbands they ever had- if that's not a case of the choice coming down to the woman then I don't know what is. I'm moved by the story you relate of your relative. Hmm, I drove through a red light camera at an intersection late last year and a few weeks ago I just challenged it in court, and WON! Yep, the state had a series of pix of me in my car breaking the law (caught red handed so to speak) but I went to court and presented my case, and the judge agreed and let me off the $500 fine. Amazing. I say this because I believe that we will all be given the opportunity to present our cases.