Alex

Meh, he asked if "he was as dense as he seems to think I am?" and I let it go, yet you take offense on his behalf anyway ?!

Am I just being as dense as he seems to think I am? Well, you have a history here of diving in without looking. Take the case of the Hyde Park visitors center/chapel where I know for a fact that is leased and you were adamant that it wasn't- I showed you how leases are bought in UK law and are considered sold until the lease expires. You got so puffed up though that you wouldn't let it go, so, I can't help but see that this is behavioral for you. Now to quote you here, you just said "Am I just being as dense as he seems to think I am?" Well, I'm not going to answer that. Back to the 2 black priesthood holders that some historians feel influenced things. Q- Do we know if Brigham received that revelation from the Lord first or was it Brigham who took the problem to the Lord and told him that he needed to make a change to the laws on earth in order to keep order within the church? A- We don't know. We do know that sometimes Brigham made decisions on behalf of the church that were rushed- sometimes the Lord allowed Brigham to make those mistakes in order to teach him a lesson. For the members who followed Brigham's directives, well, they followed the Lord's prophet and are under no condemnation, just as those in ancient Israel who drank the water from the rock that Moses struck with his staff (knowingly disobeying the lord), are under no condemnation for drinking the water. Hmm, and to those who feel we are touching upon sacred here, well, I can only offer some advice- Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Some of those historians are LDS you know...

Hmm, he didn't take the priesthood away from all white men because of the numbers. There were only a few black males holding the priesthood and 2 of them went of the rails. It's not evil for latter day historians to see the actions of those 2 as influencing Brigham. If you have a problem with historians then maybe you and vort can organize burning their books ?

yeah and William McCary was the other one. wiki says he was claiming he was Adam but I've read somewhere else he was claiming he was Christ.

It's all there. You just gotta wade through it: Joseph T. Ball was the one practicing polygamy without consent.

Yes, to add to this discussion, Brigham got upset with one of the few male black priesthood holders for taking on more wives than his first wife without the approval of the Lord. It looks like this act plus the actions of another black priesthood holder --who started claiming he was Christ-- may have influenced Brigham's decree that the negro could not hold the priesthood for there were only a handful of black priesthood holders. To have 2 of the few stray so far so quickly may have influenced things.

I reject your term 'assumption'. To me it seems logical. Hmm, take for instance the prophecy that in the year the lord returns, it will be a year without rainbows. Logic says that God will not suddenly stop rainbows as the rainbow is the symbol of the promise that God would not flood the earth again. God is not taking back that promise nor would he take back his symbol of the promise- logic however says therefore, it won't rain that year which would prevent rainbows from forming. The ejecta from the volcano in Rev 8:8-9 is going to be thick enough to foul the seas. The polluting of sea water through meteorological events has happened thousands of times throughout history and continues to happen- there's footage on youtube of fish not being able to breath. Logic suggests that if the ejecta is thick enough to foul water that it will also be thick enough to block the sun- for it is cast out of the volcano. What you're suggesting is a volcano that only spews muck that falls into the sea when such an event has never been recorded before. No, I reject your notion entirely for such is the magnitude of that volcano prophesied there that it will have associated disturbances. The power to throw out such muck will be intense- never seen before on earth and I can't accept that it will not throw enormous amounts of dust into the sky. If you were to point out that in the following verses, we see the events that do cloud the sky, I agree. However, our sky always eventually clears from volcanic ash as it falls to the earth. I put it to you that the volcano blocks the sun initially and then the following events occur to really shroud the light. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Beginning, middle, end. We are all in the middle phase- the writers are/were all in the middle phase. To me this last question you pose isn't such a mystery as the order defines man's very existence. There would be no point in ending with a focus on those who followed satan for example, as they go on to achieve absolutely nothing.

The problem with seeing the fires of Kuwait as the fulfillment of prophecy is that it leaves no room for Revelations 8:8-9 to take place: 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. Such an event that would destroy a third of the oceans is casting an inconceivable amount of dust into the sea. A volcano to do that would be spewing so much into the air that it alone would block the earth's skies. Don't forget that Tambora in the Southern Hemisphere messed with Joseph Smith's family for 2 years in that it prevented Joseph Smith Snr from earning a living by farming.

Yeah, I agree with you. What I don't agree with though is when the nutters don't provide a quick death. '...and should we die before the journey is through, happy day all is well...' which I'm totally with. But then take Bartholomew's case- he was, according to one account, flayed ( skinned alive ). We know that the modern day LDS hero Helmuth Hubener was tortured by the nazis, but we don't know how long his torture lasted- he was caught and jailed in mid Feb but executed in August. I know that all such suffering is brief, a speck in the eternities so to speak but the agony of losing a child or being maimed, well, that lasts for a fair chunk of this existence.

The hatred of Iran is what is driving Israel toward making Saudi an ally. Shia Iran counterbalances Sunni Saudi- they are as vile as each other. If Israel and Saudi were to succeed in destroying Iran, all that would be accomplished is giving mbs more power.

Many years ago when I was serving in London, we had a period of about 4 weeks where we couldn't wear tags because islamic nutters were harassing Christian missionaries and our tags made us the easiest to recognize. Hmm, but following the Egypt bombing of the Sufi mosque on Nov 27th a few weeks ago, isis went quiet afterwards because it was sooo unpopular in the islamic world. This leads me to wonder if the greater islamic world would have been upset if isis had have blown up a Christian church or congregation? I know this survey annoys apologists but it's still interesting nonetheless: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

eh?

No, I'm showing you an example of some of the reasoning that has been going on in Israel of late. Ignoring mbs's actions in a bid to wipe Iran from the map once and for all is shortsighted. If they join forces to wipe Iran from the earth, the Jews are allowing the evil to exist among them- tacit approval of mbs's actions is where it begins.

Yes, it does happen a lot in war. But when this stuff goes mainstream and the Jews begin to see help in evil, the lines between good judgement calls and bad judgement calls become very blurred: http://www.mintpressnews.com/israeli-think-tank-dont-destroy-isis-useful-tool-iran-hezbollah-syria/219907/

The bigger picture must be taken into account. The Israelis were benefiting from the war in Syria over the last 4 years because Syria was preoccupied with winning the war on its own soil rather than with funding Hezbollah. I think that whole 'let's let them fight each other instead of us' mentality might be gaining popularity among the Israelis. It's the perfect storm for the rise of a deceiver now.

“Lots of Israelis see Mohammad bin Salman’s assertiveness favorably and as a positive thing. But I think this conduct is reckless."

Here: "The BND lists the areas in which Saudi Arabia is adopting a more aggressive and warlike policy. In Syria, in early 2015, it supported the creation of The Army of Conquest, primarily made up of the al-Qaeda affiliate the al-Nusra Front and the ideologically similar Ahrar al-Sham, which won a series of victories against the Syrian Army in Idlib province. In Yemen, it began an air war directed against the Houthi movement and the Yemeni army, which shows no sign of ending. Among those who gain are al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula, which the US has been fruitlessly trying to weaken for years by drone strikes. "

Back in 2016 his links to Al Qaeda were not imagined... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/prince-mohammed-bin-salman-naive-arrogant-saudi-prince-is-playing-with-fire-a6804481.html But now we have Trump in charge with his hotel interests in Saudi, all is overlooked? An alliance and war with Israel to rid Lebanon/Pal territories of Hezbollah, should it happen, is not built upon anything like unto a solid foundation. It isn't me seeing him as wonderful, or trying to defend him. It's some of the children of Israel: http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Secret-ties-A-guide-to-Saudi-Crown-Prince-Mohammad-bin-Salman-514904 along with the Pakistani's etc http://www.arabnews.com/node/1200576/saudi-arabia Anyway, the next few weeks following Trump's announcement, along with the USA moving its embassy to Jerusalem, will see events unfold. Maybe a new intifada? Whatever the reaction, mbs will be there to fight those evil radical forces funded by Iran...

The stars falling from heaven is literally some of the stars we see in the night sky. But what is interesting to me is the linking of the time of the movement of the stars with the raging of the sea in some scriptures. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. I think there's 2 scriptures that have seas raging in the last days along with the stars falling. But, there's also this little pearl from the book of Jude. The church's doctrine on this scripture is that it is discussing the method of astronomy of the day- 'Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.' But I'm wondering if there is more to that scripture because of the 'raging waves of the sea' line. Could it be prophetic and not just pointing to the habit of looking to the stars? If it's prophetic then it could mean that wandering stars signify the last days which puts a different spin on what Neal A. Maxwell said. He said of the signs of the last days that the stars may have moved already, hundreds of thousands of years ago and that we just haven't seen their light altered yet. Would certainly be amazing if many stars began to move at the same time, given their differing distances from earth- that would indicate that not only is our large solar system a life support system for earth but the galaxy itself is designed for this earth. ((edit, and lets not forget the great Portishead track while we're here. Used in umpteen film soundtracks over the last 20 years and the verse thought to mean many things, as can be seen from the comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQNAZGoZrw ))

Hmm, so far the torture of captives is the big give away to the real mbs. The tricky thing is that he's using American mercenaries to do the torturing though- many will cite that is all perfectly okay because in war 'you have to torture' your enemies. 'They can't be bad people if they are former American troops', after all. The rise of the a/c will be praised by many men. His ascension to popular praise is shrouded in deceit. If we think about the last time there was a peace-bringer to a nation racked with Islamic/Arabic hatreds, that would be Sadat, who was assassinated by his own people. Sadat's peace was the same sort of peace that the Hashemite king of Jordan was faced with- a realization that Israel couldn't be beaten with war. See, what mbs is ushering in runs so counter-clockwise to Arab hatred of the Jews that it doesn't make sense- it only makes economic sense and I don't believe that is enough to discard the generational hatreds he was raised in. There has never been a wake up call that fighting Israel is unwinnable for Saudi has never gone to war with Israel but there has been a generational hatred/mistrust of Jews in Saudi. 1) The first task of making people believe in his path is nearly complete. There will be more public displays of him bringing 'peace' and more people fawning over him before the second phase begins. 2) The second phase is that he will be nearly killed in an attack- and I'm betting that the attack will be carried out by radical muslims as that would further cement his 'courageous man of peace' persona in the West. 3) After that he gains an accomplice who preaches of his miracles. Plenty in the West will believe his miracles because after all, 'he brought about peace'. If we go back a few months, that meeting he had with shiite muqtada al-sadr was sooo odd because the arabs are calling bin salman the 'leader of the sunni world' now. I can't prove it but with al-sadr's maniacal hatred of Israel for being the infadel government that controls the al-aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, I'm betting bin salman let it be known that he was intending to eventually control the mosque in Jerusalem. Why else would a willing shiite martyr for shia suddenly befriend a sunni rival- you can't tell me it was for peace because muqtada is every bit as bloodthirsty as the Syrian leader is? No, the peace between mbs and muqtada doesn't add up- it has that stench of conniving to it. But for now though, well, all he needs you to do is marvel at his great achievements in opposing radicalism. The more 'peace' he brings about now, the easier it will be to praise him later when he offers the starving food.

Yes, I should clarify that bin salman won the Time Magazine Person of the Year readers poll, which is, I think, worse than the choice of the editors. So many people think he's wonderful. http://time.com/5021948/person-of-the-year-reader-poll-2017/

Trump is about to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. First time a US president has done so and the forecast is for immediate violence across Israel and the palestinian territories. The news hit the wires an hour ago. I can't see the future but I can see some scenarios playing out here that involve Saudi getting involved to remove Iranian backed Hezbollah. Violence on the streets is a convincing prelude to foreign intervention and the conservative right, around the entire globe, will love a muslim prince of Saudi who 'fights for Israel'. The Saudi prince was just named Time Magazine's Person of the Year btw.

No, there's infinite space. Our God has a portion of that infinite space and the worlds our God has made are without number (meaning they are beyond human reckoning) which goes to show the enormity of our God's creation. However, infinite space leaves plenty of room for new Gods to create. They are the disciplined who exercise self control over their mortal bodies and are exalted- they overcome life's trials and have earned the right to create in the eternities. It wouldn't be a perfectly just system to elevate those who didn't elevate themselves in this mortal probation. D&C 132: 19, 20. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.