Alex

Pic isn't real therefore why is what you write as name etc real?

Hmm, it's a bit like an eating contest in that you don't get time to enjoy the different delicate flavors, the subtle nuances and depth- it's a quantity challenge when it should be a quality challenge perhaps? Reading like that is a bit like those contiki bus tours around Europe where the victims stop in each capital city for a day and learn nothing of the people or the culture, then they go home and brag that they've 'been to Paris and Vienna' etc. I can't stand dinner parties with braggers like that- I find I must call them out. I mean, women don't praise men for having sex in 2 minutes so why do Mormons brag that they've read the B.O.M. in 2 weeks ?

Yeah, there's one in Wales called Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. apparently the residents' legendary bowel movements block the pipes as well.

Well, seeing as you're praying for me, I want a talking Cat in the Hat for Christmas. Its mouth has to move when it plays all the classics- fox in socks, green eggs and ham, horton etc etc.

Save your pity for those who need it this Christmas.

Cheers. I would dance to the tunes played by the sock puppets here but meh, they play out of tune. Would you like another chiasmus?

Hmmmmm, no. Seeing as how you accept whatever vort says without a doubt, I believe continuing this discussion with you is kind of pointless. Activate that mind of yours and I shall engage.

Ahh, so that's settled then. My profile page has a pic of cookie monster holding a knife, therefore I am cookie monster, using your logic.

Firstly, is vort a he, a she, an it or a sock puppet? ?

A chiasmus for you: Wow, two competing perspectives at once. Now you're faced with a choice- a choice to think or a choice not to think. The resources are there and many (not all) are held by the church. Are you going to ignore those resources? Much easier to let others think for you- the choice not to think is common. Woe, to those who willfully make no choice.

“If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag. Give the people contests they win by remembering the words to more popular songs or the names of state capitals or how much corn Iowa grew last year. Cram them full of noncombustible data, chock them so damned full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving. And they'll be happy, because facts of that sort don't change.” ― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 Or even better. From the prophet himself: 'I regret the ignorance of this people—how it floods my heart with sorrow to see so many Elders of Israel who wish everybody to come to their standard and be measured by their measure. Every man must be just so long, to fit their iron bedstead, or be cut off to the right length: if too short, he must be stretched, to fill the requirement. If they see an erring brother or sister, whose course does not comport with their particular ideas of things, they conclude at once that he or she cannot be a Saint, and withdraw their fellowship, concluding that, if they are in the path of truth, others must have precisely their weight and dimensions. The ignorance I see, in this particular, among this great people is lamentable. Let us not narrow ourselves up; for the world, with all its variety of useful information and its rich hoard of hidden treasure, is before us; and eternity, with all its sparkling intelligence, lofty aspirations, and unspeakable glories, is before us, and ready to aid us in the scale of advancement and every useful improvement.' --Brigham Young, March 4, 1860, JD 8:9 Wow, what poignant words from Brigham.

Exactly.

Eh, philosophies of man? God used the symbolism of his numbers all through the old and new testaments. He even flooded the planet using those same numbers or sent the planet into darkness using that symbolism. Even the Book of Mormon has that symbolism in it. 3, 7, 12, 40, 70- when we see those numbers in scripture it is the divine plan in action. Maybe it's just me but those numbers reassure me. They assuage doubt in that they link the past with the present- much like a rainbow.

whatever But on to a different more interesting subject. See how God uses symbolism in the number of years, months and days in the story of King David. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if Brigham had have used one of God's numbers re the negro and the priesthood. As in something like 'a negro male can't be given the priesthood until they have stood worthily in the church for 7 years or perhaps, the negro shall be denied the priesthood for seventy years, or even the negro shall not be given the priesthood until they have been active for 40 years. It just would have been more of a, hmm, a continuation of the established pattern where we see God's hand.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want. carb is too lazy to read- I posted a link to an article a few days ago and he didn't bother reading it, then he questioned it. If zil needs to defend his actions that is her prerogative as a web crusader in her divine quest for the holy grail.

On your point 3, as I recall, Joseph had a discussion with Brigham after a free mason meeting in which Joseph said to Brigham words to the effect of 'we will have to move out West to escape the persecution'. I think that was where the seed for Brigham's migration came from. Hmm, I have heard it said that Joseph is the 'prophet's prophet' - It's an interesting axiom.

Nah. Tis not an attack. Merely an observation.

What you say is well considered given the attitude of many. I prefer to hold to a theory than to hold to no theory- better to have something in one's mind than to have nothing / book burning. They say ignorance is bliss but I wouldn't know

Well, Joseph Smith ordained 2 black males to the Melchizedek Priesthood. There weren't many black males who were given the priesthood- I'd say less than 7 in total by the time Brigham decreed that the negro wouldn't receive the priesthood anymore. There could be more but that's about the number my reading has discovered. I don't believe the barring of the negro from receiving the priesthood was racist however there may have been a racist element in the members who got upset with one of the black males for a) taking multiple wives without permission, b) those women were white, c) mixing of seed with a descendant of Ham (lineage of Cane). Brigham rebuked racism among the saints however he was very much opposed to the line of Cane mixing with Israel. Joseph Smith gave worthy black males the priesthood. Joseph and Brigham were free masons and they had no issue with black male free masons (hence the term 'free' mason). Joseph said we have abolitionist ideals but we are not abolitionists. I believe Joseph said this because it wasn't his mission to fight a pre-civil war. His mission was to be the prophet of the restoration. It gets tricky because the records are dispersed- the church does not own all the letters of the prophets nor even the minutes of some crucial meetings. Heck, as a church we haven't even digitized our membership records prior to 1980 in many parts of the Western world. We have scattered records that indicate Brigham was leaning toward a big decision before the decree was made- one record of minutes kept by a non LDS library shows a discussion between Brigham Young and Orson Hyde where Brigham is discussing a tribe of native American Indians who flatly reject the descendants of Ham. You read that and you can see that he is considering big picture issues, plus he's trying to deal with one of the few black priesthood holders who has begun preaching that he is Adam. I think Brigham took the problems to the Lord and told the Lord what he intended to do. I do not believe Joseph would have steered the course Brigham did, but in saying that, it is the Lord's ship and the Lord picks the captain. sigh... If only Hyrum hadn't demanded to protect his brother and gone with Joseph to Carthage. The church wouldn't have split etc etc etc. For some reason we can read the old testament and say something similar of King David or the many kings who followed after him but if we say anything remotely like unto it now, we are almost accused of heresy by saints who would rather not know.

Hmm, I've only read that book about 8 times now. I like to revisit it every 5 years or so. I didn't like the movie that much. Oh wait, the overhead monorail thingy was cute but the rest is a bit dated. Interesting fact on that book- if you read the intro closely, you'll find 2 mentions of Mormons or the Mormon church whilst the rest of the churches he mentions get only one. I got the sense from reading that intro closely that Bradbury had taken an interest of some kind or another in the restored gospel. He obviously rejected it but was still a tad intrigued by it at the time.

Hmm, first things first. You mention the word 'obey' but did you know that obey had its peak usage in the English language in the 1800's. That's important because of what the church says of the language deployed in the scriptures: "The book of Abraham was the last of Joseph Smith’s translation efforts. In these inspired translations, Joseph Smith did not claim to know the ancient languages of the records he was translating. Much like the Book of Mormon, Joseph’s translation of the book of Abraham was recorded in the language of the King James Bible. This was the idiom of scripture familiar to early Latter-day Saints, and its use was consistent with the Lord’s pattern of revealing His truths “after the manner of their [His servants’] language, that they might come to understanding.” So, consider this use of the word obey in this scripture: Romans 6:12 'Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.' Consider also this use of obey in James 3:3: Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. See, those uses of obey plus the fact that Joseph Smith was right in the era that the word was most used, suggest obey means to follow a course or law as in I dropped my pen and it obeyed the law of gravity. You're saying obey has always meant to choose but I'm thinking obey has often meant to follow without option.

Yes, this graphic is good. I'd like to get a larger print out of it. Scientific American huh. Sept 2017. I might order this issue so I can refer to it. I'm sick of 'identifying with' being mixed up with gender identity- I can identify with the aboriginal Australians for example but that is not my identity.

Eh? He asked if he was dense and I didn't answer. I'm totally chilled with not needing to answer his question

No, you jumped in to be a crusader. I did not attack your long time web friend- I merely showed how carb had jumped in before (which goes to his repeated behavior) and refused to let things go and that has offended you.

Yes, I know he wasn't calling me dense- he was asking if he is dense. I didn't answer that question. Hmm, are you on a crusade to take offense on behalf of others, wherever possible?