Jonah
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Posts posted by Jonah
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Would someone clarify this section.
D&C 17
Introductory notes - 1–4, By faith the Three Witnesses will see the plates and other
sacred items;"Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full
purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate,
the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared
upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors
which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea".Is there a record of the 3 Witnesses ever seeing the sword of Laban or Lehi's
directors?Which of the mentioned items (plates, breastplate, sword, Urim and Thummim) were
given to Jared's brother upon the mount? When I read Ether 6:1-2, he goes to the
mount and comes back from the mount with only the stones.Jonah
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On 3/21/2021 at 12:06 AM, Traveler said:
Who (or what) do you believe are the parents that created you in the first place? And then left you to be adopted by someone else?
The Traveler
Heavenly Father created us. I don't believe a heavenly mother was involved. The Fall
separated mankind from Him. By faith, we are adopted back as sons.There are a few verses in Romans chapter 8 which reveal this adoption:
12 - So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh
13 - for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of
body to deaths by the spirit, you will live.
14 - For all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God’s sons.
15 - For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of
adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!"
16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
17 - If, then, we are children, we are also heirs-heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ
provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.Only those led by the spirit of God are the children of God (and joint-heirs with Christ).
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On 3/18/2021 at 2:28 PM, Jane_Doe said:
Ditto for LDS Christians (except for not using the word "trinity").
What do you think about Joseph's teaching as recorded in History of the Church?
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow--three in one, and
one in three! It is a curious organization". -
On 3/19/2021 at 1:30 AM, Traveler said:
By the definition given us through Jesus Christ and scripture (which cannot be broken) - those to whom the word of G-d is received are g-ds. So the question is - do you accept the word of G-d? And if you, in truth do - according to the witness of Christ - are you not to be numbered among "The Children of G-d?" And if a Child of G-d are you not a g-d? What does it mean to believe in Christ? Is not Christ the word? Has the word of G-d come to you?
The Traveler
I believe I'm an adopted son of God by faith, but not a literal procreated child of heavenly parents.
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On 3/16/2021 at 3:24 PM, Carborendum said:
Why is "God" a plural noun in the original Hebrew Old Testament? I've read that is doesn't have to "mean" plural. But the fact remains that it is grammatically speaking a plural noun. Why?
I don't know for sure, but I think this was done to denote three persons in the trinity. I don't
understand how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God and one Godhead. -
23 hours ago, Traveler said:
I am a disciple of Jesus - and I believe what he said and taught is correct and should be interpreted that those that are are one in G-d themselves become g-ds - as testified by both scripture and Jesus.
I understand that you believe you may become a god (in the future) as shown in Doctrine
and Covenants 132:16-17.Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 says "According to that which was ordained in the midst
of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was ..."Were you already a god at this Council in the past?
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On 3/10/2021 at 12:32 AM, Traveler said:
The only answer to the paradox of the Trinity that I have encountered to fulfill all that the scriptures tell us of the G-dhead of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that was first presented to the modern world by the boy Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith made several statements about what seem to be the Trinity.
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow--three in one, and
one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the
world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me " "Holy Father, keep
through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be
one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to
sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would
be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster." (History
of the Church, volume 6)."I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a
separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy
Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute
three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of Presidents of
the Church - Joseph Smith).How do you interpret these verses?
2 Nephi 31:21. "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and
the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen".Alma 11:44. "Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit,
which is one Eternal God".Doctrine and Covenants 20:28. "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are
one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen". -
On 3/5/2021 at 5:05 PM, Traveler said:
It is my personal impression that if G-d meant that such things would only have meaning specific to Adam and Noah that it would not have been preserved in sacred scripture for all generations of mankind. But then we do have archeological evidence that Biblical scripture have evolved and that no original manuscripts (neither autograph nor autograms) remain of such - even though G-d saw fit to preserve the sacred writings of several other ancient religions - some of which no longer have a following. Interestingly most all ancient religions teach marriage as a fundamental principle of believers - with the odd exception of those early "Traditional" Christians that become attached to the Niacin Creed of the Trinity. I see all such things as evidence that G-d intended a restoration of the "Fullness" in the Last-days - also know as the time of "restitution" of all things.
The Traveler
Is the Trinity considered to be "3 Gods in one Godhead" in LDS theology?
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On 3/3/2021 at 11:31 AM, Traveler said:
The term Gentile is first used in scripture to describe the populations of the world that descended from Noah's son Japheth.
What are the populations of the other 2 sons referred to as?
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On 3/1/2021 at 12:36 PM, Traveler said:
Let us use a specific example. Why would G-d sanction and bless the covenant of marriage and yet man finds excuse and opportunity that there are more "important" ways to understand scripture.
I don't think there is a misunderstanding of marriage. Some view it as a command, others as
optional. One can remain single and not procreate and still bring glory to God (Matthew 19:12
is one example). There is another in 1 Corinthians 7 by the Apostle Paul.If I am not mistaken, only Adam and Noah were the only humans God told to be fruitful and
multiply and this was in the context of monogamy, not polygamy. -
Would someone clarify this section.
"Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, who created the heavens and
the earth, a light which cannot be hid in darkness; Wherefore, I must bring forth
the fulness of my gospel from the Gentiles unto the house of Israel".Who exactly are these Gentiles and why must it come from them instead of the
house of Israel to the house of Israel?Jonah
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On 2/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, Traveler said:
It would seem that what was once sanctioned and blessed is now heresy and a doctrine generally not acceptable.
I would be interested to know the scriptural rationale for why it was sanctioned in
the first place. -
On 2/19/2021 at 11:18 AM, Traveler said:
@Jonahasked me to start a thread on this topic concerning Christianity and the Trinity Doctrine established at Nicene counsel and how that creed was used by Christian institutions impacting their society up until roughly the 16th Century. Here is the question from the "Was Jesus Married" thread in the LDS Gospel Discussion section:
My main question is not so much concerning the specific doctrine but rather how many Traditional Christians approve the history of its impact on Christian institutions and how those institutions treated any society that rejected the Trinity Creed. Please be prepared to answer my questions of how this creed was used historically and how Christians today view the historical consequences.
The Traveler
Hi Traveler,
I don't have a historical knowledge of how the approval of the Trinity by traditional Christians caused
institutions to treat any society that rejected this creed. But I have heard (via reading the Foxe's Book
of Martyrs) how some Catholics severely persecuted those who had differing views. As one portion
says, "After Henry’s break with Rome and the founding of the Church of England, however, there was a
period when Catholics faced the same terrors".Some excerpts are found online - https://www.kregel.com/books/pdfs/excerpts/9780825443299.pdf
I used to have a much older version but I don't recall where I may have placed it. Whatever atrocities
that occurred by both sides in the past is not in line with the teachings of Christ. I would view these
actions as sins (more notably referred to as brutal punishments and murders).Jonah
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On 2/15/2021 at 1:40 PM, Traveler said:
As I have read your posts (and others as well) I really wonder why you find such great joy in what you profess to believe. I believe everyone will be glad and happy (appreciative to the good news) with their great gift of resurrection.
I find great joy knowing that faith in Christ's atonement will enable us to live
with Christ in his kingdom.From my understanding of what I read in the Book of Mormon, there is no second
chance for those who had rejected the gospel in mortality. There are a few but
I'll provide one passage which mentions this."Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the
demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own
guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill
his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire,
whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath
no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment"
(Mosiah 2:38-39).But I understand that a particular section in Doctrine and Covenants says they do
have a chance for some degree of glory (supposedly, maybe?, living a life better
than what they experienced on earth). -
On 2/17/2021 at 10:02 AM, Traveler said:
How do you feel about disciples of Christ that object to the doctrine of the Trinity? Or for that matter anyone of any religion that does not believe in the Trinity? How do you personally believe they ought to be treated and can you give me any examples (especially in any Catholic institution prior 1700 AD) that is in line with your personal understanding? Do you think G-d will ostracize those that do not accept the Trinity? Or does he define his disciples as those that love their neighbor?
The Traveler
Would you start a new thread.
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Would someone clarify this section.
D&C 13
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of
Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of
repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall
never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an
offering unto the Lord in righteousness".What future offering of the Levites would result in the taking away of repentance
and baptism by immersion? -
On 2/12/2021 at 1:51 PM, Traveler said:
Do you not believe that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ?
Yes, every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ, but I don't see that
those who reject the gospel or refuse to repent will have good news in the resurrection.What do you think about the latter?
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On 2/4/2021 at 6:05 PM, Traveler said:
As I understand - someone can know how to come unto G-d and still choose not to. In my mind good news is when someone comes unto Christ - and not so much or as not so good of news if someone knows all about Christ and coming unto him and chooses not to.
The Traveler
What good news awaits those in the resurrection who refused to accept the gospel of
Jesus Christ or those who continued in their sins and did not repent? -
Verse 3 says about John, "thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and
shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people".How would John be doing this over the last almost 2000 years? Would his
appearance be changing so that no one in history would make any record of
this immortal evangelist? -
On 1/30/2021 at 10:23 PM, Carborendum said:
You're forgetting a priest's and nun's vows of celibacy.
A Catholic (of the non-priestly or non-nun class) can choose to remain celibate without
undergoing an ordinance of the Catholic Church. -
On 1/30/2021 at 2:30 PM, NeedleinA said:
Mega dodge. Didn't even answer his question.
@Traveler asked "Do you think that to multiply and replenish the Earth is Law? And involves marriage?"
This is a law for those to whom God commands. Paul remained single and did not
remarry. There is no record that he even had children from his first marriage. Stephen
was martyred but there is no mention of him being married with children either. As a
side note, only monogamy and not polygamy (to my knowledge) was ever associated
with God's command to be fruitful and multiply and to replenish the earth. If I am not
mistaken, this command was given to Adam and his wife and to Noah and the flood
survivors. -
On 1/30/2021 at 5:00 PM, Traveler said:
Interesting response - How do you feel about the scripture that "man is not without the woman nor woman without the man in G-d"? Do you understand (clearly) the difference between a gift from G-d and a commandment? Without this understanding of what is law it is most difficult to have a discussion about what is a transgression of the law. Which bring us back to Isaiah and being separated from G-d - not by heresy or false doctrine but by transgression of the Law - which then brings about false doctrine to justify transgression of the law, changing of the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant.
And so I find your answer rather confusing - I did not know that Catholics have an ordinance for singleness?????
We don't have an ordinance for singleness. I don't believe remaining single is breaking
a commandment of God since marriage is not for everyone. For this I would quote the
teachings of Jesus about the eunuch. In Matthew 19:12, Jesus mentions eunuchs in the
context of whether it is good to marry. He says, “There are eunuchs who were born that
way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those
who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can
accept this should accept it.” Jesus identifies three types of “eunuchs” here: natural
eunuchs (“born that way”), forced eunuchs (“made eunuchs by others”), and voluntary
eunuchs (“those who choose”).No condemnation is given by him.
In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul states that it is not wrong to get married, but that it is better if a
Christian can stay single. -
On 1/30/2021 at 10:25 PM, Carborendum said:
why he so easily shies away from any discussion of Samuel and Saul.
The account of the witch of Endor summoning Samuel is recorded in 1 Samuel 28:7-20. I think
God allowed this and the witch seemed surprised herself in that she cried out when she saw
Samuel. -
1 hour ago, Traveler said:
It is interesting to me that Satan appeared to Jesus and tempted him (following his baptism). Part of Satan's temptation included the quoting of sacred scripture. How do you discern spiritual promptings from heaven and the initial flaxen cord type of temptations of Satan that come as counterfeits of spiritual promptings?
Satan quoted scripture in order to tempt Jesus to sin. So I would say that counterfeit spiritual
promptings will lead to evil fruit in the life of a believer.
The Three Witnesses see sacred items
in Christian Beliefs Board
Posted · Edited by Jonah
Who owned the sword given to the brother of Jared on the mount before it became known
as the sword of Laban?