Jonah
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Posts posted by Jonah
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12 minutes ago, Traveler said:
I believe doctrine is way over rated. Our concerns ought to be the covenants, ordinances and laws reveled to the Saints of G-d.
What are your thoughts about doctrines revealed by God?
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18 hours ago, CV75 said:
Individual Jews and Gentiles were prepared to receive the fulness of that dispensation, but on the whole they couldn't get even that word out given the constraints of that dispensation, which led to the Great Apostasy.
What are you suggesting by this statement?
In an earlier post, Carborendum talked about the persecution of the LDS Church
and how it almost got snuffed out. He said "so he set things up to be restored
at a time when the world would be more prepared to receive the fulness of the
Gospel. Even then, it almost got snuffed out".So my question was how prepared he believed the Jews and Gentiles were to receive
the fulness of the Gospel under Roman rule?I have read literature describing the persecutions and murder of the Latter-day Saints
in the 1830's and beyond, but I would say it was much worse for the Christians under
Roman rule before Christianity became acceptable under Constantine.When NeedleinA said, "Ah, the classic 1997 GP reference", I made the comment that
maybe the 2009 version would someday be viewed as a classic too. I think the next
version, whenever it comes out, will be just as valid as the previous versions
though. -
On 12/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, NeedleinA said:
Ah, the classic 1997 GP reference.
The 2009 version will become a classic some day. We'll see what changes show up in the new
edition. -
On 12/7/2020 at 4:37 PM, laronius said:
I said resurrection but I think judgment day is more precise though I think they go hand in hand.
Is a sealing on earth equivalent to a marriage in the spirit world or a marriage after judgment
day (when spirit and body are re-united)? -
On 12/7/2020 at 12:57 PM, Carborendum said:
So, he set things up to be restored at a time when the world would be more prepared to receive the fulness of the Gospel.
How prepared do you believe the Jews and Gentiles living in the first and second centuries were
to receive the fulness of the Gospel? -
Would someone clarify this section.
D&C 10:43
"I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them
that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil"The 1997 Gospel Principles says God's church was eventually destroyed.
Are these two teachings referencing two different events?
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On 11/28/2020 at 8:55 AM, laronius said:
Eternal marriage is definitely part of the plan. So yes Jesus was either married in this life or if his specific mission precluded him from marrying in this life then he married after. But if I understand it correctly marriage has to take place before the resurrection so that would not have given him much time.
Why does marriage need to take place before the resurrection?
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On 11/19/2020 at 3:44 PM, mikbone said:
If Jehovah had the ability to demonstrate a corporeal body of flesh and bone prior to his birth in Bethelem, it makes some passages in scripture much more exciting.
What are the differences between the body of a spirit child and the body of Heavenly Father?
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On 11/23/2020 at 11:50 PM, Traveler said:
I have never met anyone that I thought was beyond G-d's mercy. Perhaps you have someone in mind?
I have never met these beings, but I was thinking about those who are considered to be the one-third of
Heavenly Father's spirit children who rejected his plan of salvation. I think these are classified as the sons
of perdition, destined for outer darkness. -
18 hours ago, Traveler said:
When considering justice - usually it is believed that the more a person knows what is right - the worse it is for them when they fail to do it. But in most of Christianity it seems that the less a person understand about G-d the more they are guilty and worthy to be punished by a unmerciful G-d that only gives mercy to those that know better????
I don't know what most of Christianity you are referring to, but I would stay with the scriptures
to support any teachings about the justice of God and his mercy. In one particular example, I
don't see God extending any mercy to those in Revelation 14:9-11. -
On 11/17/2020 at 7:07 PM, Traveler said:
One last thought - at the last supper Jesus told his closest followers (who he called Apostles) that one would betray him. One would think that it was obviously Judas - with all the problems Judas was having. Plus these were all apostles that more than anyone believed Jesus was the Christ.
I wonder if Judas really believed deep down that Jesus was the Christ. If he did, would he really
have betrayed him for some pieces of silver? I don't think the other disciples knew about Judas'
intentions. -
On 11/15/2020 at 6:57 PM, Traveler said:
Thanks for your response and your opinion. It is not so different from mine.
You're welcome. We have similarities from time to time.
QuoteI am not excited with the prospect that anyone struggling with sin when they die will be treated
as an enemy of G-d. That may be pleasing to you but for me - I do not plan to brag about my
perfect goodness and turning completely from sin - rather my plan is the beg for mercy.You misunderstood what I wrote previously. I think that someone who dies without repenting
and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has rejected God's
mercy. I would say that all unregenerated people are the enemies of God (the children of
wrath, Ephesians 2:1-3)The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:5-6). The wrath of God
will also be on display in the future (Revelation 15:1,7; 16:1). This will not be pleasing
for those on the receiving end but unfortunately it happens. -
On 11/13/2020 at 12:57 PM, Traveler said:
I am grateful that you have such interest in the Book of Mormon to carefully quote it - even though you are using and quoting it improperly
In Mosiah 2:39, what does it mean that mercy has no claim on that person? If mercy has no claim
on him, does justice have claim on him?
QuoteDo you believe that if a person passes from mortality
having not accepted Christ (even if they die in ignorance having never heard in mortality of
Christ) - that G-d withdraws his mercy from them and damns them to eternal Hell?I think the person who dies in ignorance, never hearing the gospel, will be judged by
whatever light they had before they died. But I think that someone who dies without
repenting and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has
rejected God's mercy. Another opinion is that if a person really seeks God, God will
ensure he has the opportunity to hear the gospel by bringing someone into that person's
life that will share the good news; like what happened between Philip and the Ethiopian
eunuch (Acts 8:26-40).What I find pleasing and enlightening is that God keeps extending his mercy to us while
we still have an ability to turn to him. After a certain point (possibly judgment day),
a person will either be saved or lost. God still loves that person, but unfortunately
they chose to remain unsaved.
QuoteNow I would speak of death. Again death is not just a physical mortal thing because there are
two deaths (reference Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:14) This second death
is a spiritual refusal to accept the light (mercy of G-d) with full understanding an opportunity
to do so in order to remain in darkness.Revelation 20:6 says "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".Do you believe the priests saved from the second death are the same priests of
Revelation 1:6?Why are only those in the first resurrection considered priests?
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On 11/10/2020 at 6:41 PM, Traveler said:
I find it most interesting that you have made this point about mercy - most Traditional Christian that I have encountered may tout what you are saying but then turn around and teach that if someone does not accept Christ before they die - G-d mercy is no longer extended to them.
The Traveler
That's the impression I get when I read this passage.
"Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands
of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth
cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain,
and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to
endure a never-ending torment "(Mosiah 2:38-39) -
On 10/3/2020 at 12:11 PM, maklelan said:
My paper demonstrates that "after all we can do" was a phrase commonly used by English-language writers discussing grace in the late-eighteenth and early-nineteenth centuries, and it always and only meant "despite all we can do."
Does the word "after" in the phrase "after all we can do" have some aspect in it that changes the
meaning of the verse if someone substitutes the word "despite"? That is, does "after" = "despite"
or does the change reflect a change in the meaning that Joseph intended when it was translated
that way? -
On 9/24/2020 at 3:56 PM, Traveler said:
If you hold a current temple recommend - it is my personal opinion that you ought to be living the law and covenant of Concentration and Stewardship.
I saw this mentioned in Doctrine and Covenants.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng
"The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this
revelation ... The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and
stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a
covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by
this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to
the whole Church".When I read these notes, it gives me the impression the law of consecration and stewardship
of properly was not a concurrent law with the law of tithing. The law of tithing seems to
have been only instituted because the other law was not followed by many of the leading
elders. From what I know so far, this law of consecration has not been reinstated by
revelation.Did many of the Nephite elders also fail to follow the law of consecration so the law
of tithing was instituted for all of the Nephite population? -
On 11/2/2020 at 10:21 AM, laronius said:
Oh Lord... we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens... 4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man... 5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power...
Hi @Traveler , in addition to what laronius mentioned, I would add two others: God's everlasting existence
and his everlasting mercy.Psalm 90:2 - "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world,
even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God".Psalm 103:17 - "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and
his righteousness unto children’s children". -
On 10/29/2020 at 1:24 PM, Traveler said:
Being as specific as I can - the only way to inherit eternal life is through a valid and working covenant with G-d - which is the ancient definition of righteousness. I will use the secular example of a mortgage. If you enter into a legal mortgage agreement with a lender to purchase a house and then half way through your agreed payments decide to no longer make any payments. The legal truth is that regardless that there was once a mortgage agreement in full validity and force - that house will not be yours at the end of the contracted time. In addition you will loose all claim to whatever you paid up and until you determined to invalidate your covenantal contract. Scripture is rampant with references of disloyalty to divine contract as wicked and evil. Are you in any way suggesting otherwise?
The Traveler
The mortgage example makes sense. One has to endure to the end with all the payments.
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32 minutes ago, Traveler said:
The wicked were defined as those that were not willing to covenant with G-d.
Do you mean those who don't inherit eternal life because they do not endure to the end?
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40 minutes ago, Traveler said:
There is another way to look at this - which is symbolically. What I find interesting - if I may be so bold to say so - you seem to think scripture is symbolic only when it suits you. ???? Would you explain how you determine when scripture is symbolic?
I would have to examine the passage in its context. Some is symbolic, some is literal. For the garden of Eden
with all the trees God created, I would say they are literal. You seemed to have mentioned in a previous post
that the two trees are symbolic but you didn't mention how you would interpret a verse like the following."And out of the ground [assuming from the garden mentioned in verse 8 of Genesis 2] made the Lord God to
grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" -
On 10/15/2020 at 6:39 PM, NeedleinA said:
When I see things like this creep up, which they do from time to time, the two impressions that come to my mind are:
1. "Follow the prophet"
2. "Hold to the iron rod"
Does holding to the iron rod include believing everything spoken by leaders at General Conference are
truthful? -
On 10/18/2020 at 9:56 PM, Just_A_Guy said:
I would encourage folks interested in the topic to read Terryl Givens’s Wrestling the Angel, especially pp. 153-163. It’s far too long for me to quote here, but Givens traces the history and distinction between the ideas of spirits being “begotten“ by God versus being “adopted” by God.
Was Jesus begotten of heavenly parents in similar fashion as you and I are begotten of our
earthly parents? -
On 9/21/2020 at 11:17 PM, Traveler said:
I personally dislike the terms "Sex" and "Sexual". It is my personal opinion that the covenant of marriage is a good and wonderful blessing. That kissing and intimate relationships are a sacred trust and that living the Law of Chasity is good and righteous thing to do. Everyone should prepare for marriage and keep sacred things sacred. If discipline is a difficult thing - then engagements should be shortened. But we should not think of intimate relationships as dirty, evil or corrupt - just something very sacred that should be disciplined as are all sacred and divine things.
The Traveler
Gospel Principles considers passionate kissing before marriage as something to be avoided.
“Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage.
Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, ... Do not allow anyone to do that with you.
Do not arouse those emotions in your own body” (For the Strength of Youth [pamphlet, 2001], 27).A momentary kiss on the lips should be ok though.
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Liberal Ideas Creeping In
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
The Catholic Church has for many centuries said that priests should remain single
and celibate. It seems to be leaning in a direction where this prohibition may be lifted.
Do you think the following words of Jesus indicate one can choose to remain single and
still be pleasing to God?
"... there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s
sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it".