Jonah
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Posts posted by Jonah
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Would someone clarify this section.
"And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call
and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that
are given through you.Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare
it unto them.I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;
And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation,
in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness-
clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners".What power did the 3 servants have that the others did not?
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On 8/23/2020 at 11:06 PM, Traveler said:
Have you studied the near Eastern Suzerain servant vassal treaty as applied anciently to the understanding of Kingdoms and such application in interpreting scripture?
Just wondering to what level you have studied the Near Eastern Suzerain power and relationship to a Kingdom. And are you interested in pursuing this from the dominated by Catholic scholars and discussing how such would support or change your opinion?
I have not studied that, but I think you are over-complicating things to the point where one cannot
understand what a 'king' or his 'kingdom' could represent in Revelation 17. -
On 8/14/2020 at 6:51 PM, Traveler said:
A few notes from Ezekiel (chapter 28) that talks about a particular cherub. The cherub is identified as having been in Eden and is also a covering cherub. The only reference I can find to a covering cherub is on the ark of the covenant (Mercy Seat). Obviously this cherub was once "perfect" but fell because of pride. I believe Lucifer (Satan) is a good candidate. Do you have a better explanation?
From scripture the cherubim of Eden are identified with a few very important symbols. First is the Keeper of the way to the Tree of Life. Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life. In ancient symbolism this is a direct link to the keeper of the way to the Tree of Life. Also the Cherubim symbolically has a sword with fire (flaming sword). You seem to be well versed in the Book of Revelation so I will leave this exercise up to you as to who will symbolically appear with a sword and fire. If you have a better idea and a scripture pointing to a better candidate, you may put it on the table. Finally Jesus is given the title of both Mediator (John 14:6) and Advocate (Hebrews 7:25 & 9:24). These are terms that apply to a judgment and who has claim on a soul. From simple logic who else shall via against each other to have claim on our eternal souls?
The Traveler
Before our conversation, I never contemplated Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs above the mercy
seat as you seemed to indicate previously. I looked at Ezekiel 28. I have seen some view the King
of Tyre as the embodiment of Satan."Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; Thou wast
perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee".There is no specific mention of what he covers, but a mercy seat could be an option before he fell
and if there was a mercy seat before he rebelled against God.In the scripture, there are multiple cherubs.
Genesis 3:24
"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming
sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life".In this passage, I see possibly 4 cherubs (guarding the north, south, east, and west directions).
Then we have a description of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:20-22
"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings,
and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that
I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy
seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I
will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel".I don't see two cherubs of unequal glory/power or one evil cherub (Satan) vs. one good cherub (Jesus)
in that passage. Another thing is that the cherubs are winged creatures, have four faces, and their
wings make quite a bit of noise (Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10).That's why I don't believe Satan (an angel) and Jesus (God) are the two cherubs over the mercy seat.
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21 hours ago, Traveler said:
I had the impression that you asked if Satan (previously known as Lucifer) was seated at the right hand of G-d before Jesus. It was to that question that I responded that I did not know. I also responded that there is a reference in scripture that Satan is a Cherub and so I have inserted that the Cherub at the left hand of G-d's mercy seat is Satan because the Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of G-d. Are you denying that Satan is at the left hand of G-d ever?
Scripture is silent on who was at Heavenly Father's left and right hand before Satan and Jesus
are said to have been born to heavenly parents. But I don't believe Jesus was ever a cherub.Exodus 25:22 (esv) says "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between
the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give
you in commandment for the people of Israel"Is this your reference to Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs?
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21 hours ago, Traveler said:
Once again you are using variant reading in reference to textual criticism if presidents and prime ministers are kings and their nations are kingdoms. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how you personally validate variant reading of scripture.
I believe that those ten kings of Revelation will be ten future leaders of some kingdom that they will
obtain from the beast for a short time. The title of *king* can include Prime Ministers, Presidents,
or whatever term the beast uses to title them as. -
On 8/11/2020 at 10:55 AM, Traveler said:
My reference to 10 kings is Danial 2 - the full reference:
Verse 44 does not say 10 kings - I assume the plural number comes from the number of toes that are mentioned in verse 42. Again, it appears to me that the Danial prophesy references the fall of earthy kings following the establishment of a heavenly kingdom. The prophesy of Revelation (also written in poetic style) may have reference to the same kings but may reference something else because they have not kingdom. The reference presents a paradox - which I believe is intended.
Revelation 17 mentions ten kings, without a reference to toes. Are those ten kings a reference to ten
*kings* or does it represent leaders with various titles (such as Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings,
Sultans, Royal Highness, Queens, etc)? -
4 hours ago, Traveler said:
I have no idea - I do not know of any reliable information to indicate and pure unfounded speculation seldom has much value. But it is interesting what comes to us from antiquity about left and right handed people. For example the word sinister meant left handed. And the term ambidextrous meant two right hands. Symbolically the judgment of G-d is given as evil on the left and righteous on the right. It is also interesting to me that in the New Testament Satan is referenced as "The G-d of this world". I am not sure if that is a sarcastic reference or some other symbolic possibility - but for those that believe in unbending singular or literal meaning of scripture - this is problematic.
You do have some interesting thoughts - but I sometimes wonder why you are posting on a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints web site with very little interest in diving deep into why our view of scripture and doctrine is unique (being the reason we exist as neither Catholic or Protestant.)
The Traveler
If you have no idea when Satan was seated at God's left hand, how can you make that statement
that he was ever seated at His left side? Was that just speculation based on some theory Jesus
and Lucifer were both angels before Jesus became a God?As for Satan being referenced as a god of this world, it is not a sarcastic reference. Moses was
also referred to as a god to Aaron. But in these cases, god does not mean deity; it means someone
who is regarded as a powerful ruler.Unique doctrines ... yes. I have noticed some of them reading the online website manuals. Possibly
the biggest one is the teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God. But some
of your beliefs seem particularly unique when I speak in person to some other LDS missionaries. It's
not a criticism, just an observation. -
On 7/27/2020 at 5:24 PM, Still_Small_Voice said:
It’s been a historic week for gold and silver prices. Gold rallied close to nine-year highs, approaching its all-time high of $1,920 an ounce. Silver has also been firing an all cylinders, breaching $23 an ounce this week as it traded near six and a half year highs.
If the US$ ever loses its reserve currency status, it's hard to predict how high gold and silver will go.
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On 8/11/2020 at 5:51 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/11/joe-biden-vp-pick-kamala-harris-393768
Now we see the moment a major political party came to the end of the line and derailed.
lol
McCain picking Sarah Palin back in 2008 was not a good choice as Obama-Biden went on to victory.
But the Republicans eventually came back. -
On 8/11/2020 at 6:40 PM, Traveler said:
Generally Satan is thought to be the Cherub that sits at the left hand of G-d
When do you believe Satan was first seated on God's left?
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8 hours ago, Traveler said:
So it is most difficult to establish a time when the Roman empire becomes 10 kingdoms
I agree too that it is difficult to figure out who the 10 future kings of Revelation 17:12-16 are; that will
give their allegiance to the beast before they battle with the Lamb. -
On 8/8/2020 at 11:40 AM, Just_A_Guy said:
What are the “doors of the sea” mentioned in the very next verse?
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Possibly a soil or rock boundary that limits where the waters of the sea could go. Some imagery,
especially in Ezekiel and Daniel, is difficult to understand. -
23 hours ago, laronius said:
But I do think that a strong case could be made for these morning stars as being representative of certain individuals.
What type of being are winged cherubims and seraphims?
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On 7/17/2020 at 10:03 AM, laronius said:
I would recommend reading Alma 13 in the Book of Mormon for a great explanation of the role of high priests.
Alma 13:3 says "Men are called as high priests because of their exceeding faith and good works"
In the Old Testament, were men (of non-Aaronic descent) ordained high priests due to their faith and
good works to serve in the Temple?I need some clarification on verses 3 and 7-10. Were Old Testament high priests members of the high
priesthood; the Melchizedek Priesthood? -
On 8/7/2020 at 9:57 AM, laronius said:
No there aren't any beings who were not "procreated" by our Heavenly Parents. All who fill the role of angel either will be or already have been born into this world as a human being, sons and daughters of God.
In general we only use the word angel to describe one sent by God. Though Satan has been known to appear AS an angel of light acting as an imposter.
In Job 38:7, who are the morning stars that are singing together while all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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I found some teachings on the church's web site and from another site (from a former Catholic
who became a Latter-day Saint).https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/angels?lang=eng
There are two kinds of beings in heaven who are called angels: those who are spirits and
those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Angels who are spirits have not yet obtained a
body of flesh and bone, or they are spirits who have once had a mortal body and are
awaiting resurrection. Angels who have bodies of flesh and bone have either been resurrected
from the dead or translated.
http://www.catholicldschristianity.com/angels_and_satan.htmlElder Bruce R. McConkie describes five specific types of angels in his book, Mormon Doctrine
(1979 Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, 35-37):1] Pre-existent Spirits: These are the spirits of those who have not yet come to the earth.
2] Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect: These are the spirits of those who have lived righteously
on earth, have died, and are awaiting their Resurrection. These individuals are referred to as
“just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-24). The visit of Gabriel to Zacharias and to Mary illustrates
this kind of being.
3] Translated Beings: These are translated beings that function as angels, as was the case with
the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–3).The Apostle John was translated and became a ministering angel (John 21:22-23)
4] Resurrected Personages: These are resurrected beings that serve as angels (Matt. 27:52-53).
The appearances of Moroni and John the Baptist to Joseph Smith illustrate this type of angel.
5] Righteous Mortal Men: These are holy men living on earth that are occasionally referred to as
angels as they act as ministers for God such as those that appeared to Lot to warn him of the
destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19).
From my Catholic faith, we believe Jesus Christ created the angel Lucifer.In the LDS faith, are there angels who are beings but who are not procreated in a union between
heavenly parents? Did any of these angels join Lucifer in his rebellion? -
20 hours ago, Traveler said:
You do realize that at the current time neither Judah or Jerusalem no more resembles the Judah or Jerusalem of the time of Isaiah than say certain areas of current New York City? - Which Isaiah - if one spiritually realizes the symbolic nature of his poetry - is historically and currently (prophetically) spot on and is in perfect alignment with other NT prophetic symbolism. For example Daniel speaks more towards Judah and Jerusalem with the symbolic representation of various "kingdoms" to when the Roman empire would be divided into 10 lesser (weaker) kingdoms as a marker into world history as to when the Kingdom of G-d would be restored by divine power - cut out of a mountain without hands.
The Traveler
Isaiah 7:14 says "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall
conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."Israel at the time this prophecy was given did not resemble Israel at the time the
prophecy was fulfilled. According to the way you explained what you believe Isaiah 2:1-2
is, it appears you would also consider the woman at the time of the prophecy to be different
from the woman in whom it was fulfilled. Your whole basis of how things are when
prophecy was given is now skewed where the past and the future circumstances and/or
culture are different.
Those 10 kings do not pertain to Judah and Jerusalem."And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as
yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall
give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and
the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that
are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful".Do you believe the 10 future kings are 10 presidents/prime ministers of some European
nations? -
On 7/21/2020 at 11:23 PM, Traveler said:
You think so? Where in Jerusalem is anyone exchanging their swords for plowshares, spears into pruning hooks and the thoughts of war being removed. Or are you saying that these are not "the last days"? And this thread is about temples - where in Jerusalem is there a temple?
This is some future time, but it concerns Judah and Jerusalem.
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4 hours ago, Traveler said:
Thus the mountain of G-d's house (temple) is established in the Last-days in the top of the mountains (Utah) where by all nations that intend to worship G-d according to His holy covenant will learn to "walk in his ways".
Isaiah 2:1-2 is a word concerning Judah and Jerusalem, not America or Europe.
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On 7/17/2020 at 1:39 PM, mordorbund said:
Interesting. So pre-Christian served as a template to symbolically show the faithful their source for redemption. Do I have that right? Did early Christians have their own symbols, rituals, or practices to point to the first advent of the sinless Lamb of God?
Were prayer and praising God* part of pre-Christian temple worship? Why do you suppose that continued, and sacrifice did not?
I see you identify as Catholic (I'm assuming Roman, but regardless) - part of the pre-Christian temple ritual included washing, anointing, and investiture of priests (not just high priests, but priests) as well as kings. Did any of these practices continue? What about the principles (if any) behind the practice?
*I excluded evangelism because I figured it probably wasn't part of pre-Christian temple practice, but you note that there was a place for the gentiles to gather so you can feel free to include that in your response.
The cross became the earliest symbol. I believe any rituals and / or practices which they practiced
are spoken of in scripture although some arose later out of human traditions.Several components of the Old Testament system became incorporated into the Roman Catholic
system. Priests, garments, some washings, the altar, incense, and the holy of holies (where
the eucharist is kept until it is needed).More is described here
http://www.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html
http://catholicfaith.co.uk/Politics became intertwined with religion in the Roman Empire.
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On 7/14/2020 at 5:19 PM, mordorbund said:
Thanks for engaging. You've focused largely on the 4th question about the temple in the New Testament, but left the others largely untouched. Unfortunately, this means even the 4th is unanswered because I'm not sure what remains the same and what has changed if I don't know what the Old Testament system was. This time, instead of stating the negative (what was not involved in temple worship), could you state it in positive terms (the questions are even framed in a way to prompt that sort of answer)? And just to clarify, the first 3 questions are intended for the pre-Christ period. Imagine an Israelite from the period of Isaiah or even the Maccabean period.
Hope this extra helps ...
The Old Testament system is described in the Old Testament. All the rituals are
mentioned therein.1. The major physical and liturgical elements of the Old Testament involved the various
animal and grain offerings. Baptisms and marriages were not performed in them.2. How did a person participate in temple worship?
The people worshipped God with the help and leadership of the priests through sacrifice.
Festivals (dedicated feast days) and sabbaths were also defined. Gentiles had a specific
area where they were permitted to go. There was also a court where women were permitted
to go .
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_the_women) /
https://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/jewish_templethe_womens_court.htm
3. No one was saved by participating in temple worship but through faith apart from works -
but it pointed to the eventual coming of the sinless Lamb of God.4.How did temple worship change for the New Testament church? Did any elements continue?
From what we know, the disciples continued to meet at the temple for worship for prayer,
praising God, and evangelism (Acts 2:46-47). The temple as the place of worship later
primarily became the home church. Apart from this, I don't believe any other element
(rituals/sacrifice) continued. New Testament Christians were not a temple-building people
since individuals became the temple of the Holy Spirit. Earthly high priests were not
required anymore since Jesus is our only High Priest. -
On 7/9/2020 at 3:35 PM, mordorbund said:
1. What were the major physical and liturgical elements of the temple?
2. How did a person participate in temple worship?
3. What salvific effect, if any, did temple worship have? Could the average Israelite be saved without participating in temple worship?
4.How did temple worship change for the New Testament church? Did any elements continue?
While the New Testament disciples met at the temple on some occasions, there was no
temple worship per se. There were no marriages or baptisms performed therein. It was
primarily a home-church type of moment. That's why the New Testament Christians did
not build temples when they became dispersed to other areas.The Old Testament temple became an individual (a temple indwelt by the Holy Spirit).
With Jesus as High Priest, the people did not need an earthly priestly system anymore.
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On 7/9/2020 at 5:19 PM, mordorbund said:
If I were a helpful person I would link to the video so @Jonah and others could watch it for themselves.
If that was possible.
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On 7/7/2020 at 8:02 PM, Just_A_Guy said:
The specific uses of the various rooms, and the liturgies themselves, differ widely between modern LDS temples and ancient Israelitish ones. But both, speaking broadly, housed a series of rituals in which a human symbolically draws ever-nearer to, and eventually returns to, the presence of God Himself.
What are the major similarities between the Old Testament temple and the LDS temple in regards
to how women (via rituals) draw near to God?
I apologize
in General Discussion
Posted
No need to apologize. If I can't reply to one of your queries, assume that I am stumped 🙂