JohnBirchSociety

Ideally we would vote for the Candidate who would follow their oath of office to uphold and defend the Constitution. Any other issue is seconday to that oath (and there is a reason for that). In this past cycle, the only Candidate who even came close to being able to do that was Dr. Ron Paul. Unfortunately America picked the idiots, again, and now we are going to live through the fruit of that stupid decision. When God says that anything more or less than the Constitution "cometh of evil", I personally find that to be some strong language. Yes, we will answer to GOD for our actions on behalf of our liberty. Yes, we will answer to GOD for our actions on battlefields. I don't believe the members of the German army that knew of the evils of Hitler but "just were following orders" will be held blameless by GOD in the last day...I don't think we can hide behind the "just following orders" or the 12th Article of Faith. The Book of Mormon says we are to defend our liberty by the shedding of blood if necessary.

The proper function of government was known long before I was born. I didn't create it. So it's not something that I've just made up to support my position. In fact, it isn't really my position to make. The position was laid in solid granite 230+ years ago by the Founding Fathers. I'm just repeating it. I'm just repeating scripture that supports them as being inspired in that activity. I'm just showing the complete lack of support for Socialism in the Constitution or by our Church leaders. None of this is of my own creation. And, furthermore, I have opinions on these matters that differ from the conclusions of the Founders. I've not shared any of my personal opinions on these matters.

If you don't believe their exists a proper function of government, then your argument may hold some merit. However, there is a proper function of government. It is in the protection of life and property. To do this there is a proper degree of taxation, insomuch as it maintains the ability of government to carry out its' proper function. When the government over-steps its' proper function, such taxation becomes theft. If you don't believe in a proper function of government, then what do you believe in? Are you a relativist? An anarchist? What then? I believe in the proper function of government. The protection of life and liberty, that is more easily fascilitated through government than through "every man for himself" anarchy, is the proper function as defined by our Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. Socialism is not part of that equation and has been universally denounced by the Church. So here's the case: 1) Government is necessary to civilization. 2) There is a proper function for government. 3) Government requires financial means to carry out the proper function. 4) Taxation is the usual method of getting the financial means to carry out the proper function of government. 5) There is proper taxation. 6) Improper taxation is when the government acts outside of its' proper function in the protection of life and property. I can't possibly be more clear or in better agreement with the Founding Fathers or with all Church leaders.

It doesn't matter whether we do or don't consider them socialist. If they fit the definition (which neither of us created) then they are socialist. They fit the definition. France is most certainly socialist (having lived there for a few years). They have a vastly larger number of unemployed. They have a lower standard of living than we do. Their health-care system is inadequate (that's why people come here from all over the Earth for good health-care). Therefore, they are socialist. Socialism has ALWAYS been denounced by the Church as a counterfeit to individual liberty. Always. So again, back to the question. Doesn't it even give you pause that there is universal condemnation of Socialism by Church leaders? The ideal of human liberty, as created by the effort of man is embodied in the United States Constitution. That is church doctrine. It is church doctrine that the principles of the US Constitution are for the entire world. It says this in the Doctrine and Covenants. It also says that anything more or less than it "cometh of evil". Pres. Uchtdorf will not be giving a discourse espousing the greatness of the German Socialist government. He'll most likely remain silent on that matter, because he is German. However, I'm assured that if you spoke with him on the matter of liberty he would full-heartedly concur with all previous and current leaders of the Church that have held up the US Constitution and the principles embodied therein as the ideal. FINALLY, AGAIN, I DO NOT think all taxation is theft. There IS a proper function of government, of which taxation is necessary. That proper function of government is enshrined in the United States Constitution. God says that document is inspired. That document allows for PROPER taxation. THEREFORE, some taxation IS proper and NOT theft. AGAIN, I do NOT think all taxation is theft.

This is so unfortunate. Socialism is theft. It is wrong in all its' forms. Our church leaders have never at any time condoned any form of Socialism. Does that not trouble you?

You are correct. There is a proper function of government. When we abuse the "general welfare" of proper government, as you indicated, we are stealing.

Thanks so much for your response. The devil is in the details of what I've said. There is a proper function of government where taxation IS justified and appropriate. I've consistently said and demonstrated that this is not theft. The theft occurs when property / wealth is taken by force of government to be directly given to another person, or to be used in activities that are not a part of the proper function of government. I appreciate your response, but you missed the nuance of what I've been saying. Socialism is not a proper function of government and is therefore theft.

But there is no debate here on whether we should help one another. The debate is, despite the attempts at diversion by yourself and others, theft. I know it makes you uncomfortable, but the facts cannot be avoided. You have no inalienable right to the property of others or the fruits of their labors. Neither do a group of people (government / nation). Nobody does alone, nobody does as a group. Whether I, or you, or the government take by force that which is not ours to take, and disburse it to another individual, that is theft. Theft is the issue at hand, not giving. By the way, you cannot give what is taken by force.

European style Democracy is unconstitutional. God has said that anything more or less than the constitution "cometh of evil". If you are an American Church member, in particular, how do you get around this fact?

The best approach is liberty. The least amount of government necessary to secure liberty. Theft, no matter the pretense, is never right. It will never work. Here's one reason: Those you (or the government) are stealing from are going to be very *&%$#@! - off. They don't want to be stolen from. Can begin to see how this, alone, is a problem?

Good try at diversion. The issue IS NOT taxation. Taxation (where tax is collected and used for the proper and just function of the government, for instance a military for the common defense) is appropriate. By the ideals of the Social Contract if you benefit from such general welfare / protection and are able bodied / mentally sound, then you pay such taxes as are just. The issue is THEFT. When, by force, whether individual (robbery) or government (plunder), the private property / wealth of one is taken and disbursed directly to another individual, that is ALWAYS theft. Pretense is of no consequence. Tyranny is the summation of the best of unprincipled intentions. Socialism is evil. And, besides that salient point, it has never worked.

Poverty is not really the issue. It is a diversion from the issue at hand. Poverty is to be had everywhere on this Earth. Speaking of Western European cities, I've lived in a few. Mingled with the common folk (as a missionary). I've SEEN the poverty there, and it is NOT rivaled by what is here in the US. It was equal in my experience. Of course, personal experience is anecdotal (yours as well). The issue at hand is theft. Thou shalt not steal. There are two connotations to this. 1) A prohibition against stealing by GOD mean that GOD recognizes private property rights. 2) Stealing is wrong, no exceptions. (I cannot find a single scriptural exception to the prohibition on stealing) When you take, by force, whether as an individual, or as a group (government) you are stealing, no matter the pretense. If you believe that government has the right to steal (Socialism) then it also has the right to take anything it wishes. In fact, the position of Socialism is the antithesis of individual liberty. Our church leaders, in General Conference have declared, always, that Socialism is evil. They've never approved of it. Ever. Doesn't that make you think about your position? Or don't you REALLY believe that our leaders speak the word of GOD?

Yes, you missed something. What exactly do you think the Nazi ideology was? National Socialism. It was Satanic. Socialism is satanic. Communism is Socialism to the extreme.

Ah yes, the ignorance of obvious cause and effect. And, of course I'm in the "box" and you're outside of it. Don't we all think that way? Well, actually, not. To think that way is arrogance. All I can do is look at the data (like increased ice in the South Pole) and reach conclusions. All I can do is look at how ozone in the upper atmosphere is created and realize that we have no means at our disposal of affecting that creation or lack thereof. I look at that data and realize the increase / decrease in ozone is a cyclical matter that has solely to do with the orbital patter of the Earth around the Sun. All I can do is look at Commercial Electrical Generation via Nuclear Power in the United States and see that it is factually the safest, most environmentally responsible form of energy generation ever used in American History. All I can do is see that no person has ever died as the result of a nuclear accident at a commercial electrical generation nuclear power plant in the United States. I don't fool myself or attempt to fool others by claiming that I'm outside the "box" in my thinking. Its' plain scientific method. The opposition is making claims that man is destroying the global environment and global action is absolutely required. Such action involves the largest decrease in human productivity and freedom in mans' history on this planet. Yet, when I ask for examples that rebut the obvious science involving the SUN / Earth, for instance, I get that I'm not outside the 'box'? Nonsense. It is clear that as to the global environment, the interaction of the Earth with the Sun in their respective orbits / activities has a nearly infinitely overwhelming effect on the global climate / environment. In fact, it is so overwhelming (for example, just the energy we receive from the Sun per second) that nothing man can do even shows up on the scale, unless you expand the scale to non-sensical absurdity. You can gift-wrap that 'box' of yours...

I'm very hopeful that petrol was an "interruption" as you put it. As Solar Power advances, it should have great impact on us as a society. We do have the answer, right now, for electric generation. Nuclear Power. Just one pellet of uranium (2cm, squared) has the same power generation capacity as 100 Railroad-Cars of Coal! With no emission, other than water vapor from the cooling towers. With safe waste storage (in salt mines), with a nearly unlimited supply, domestically of fuel. It is the answer. There's enough uranium, just in the ocean waters to fuel all of man's electrical needs for thousands of years!

They'll just print it... Wow! I love getting a pay-cut...

1) This thread is about global problems. Back to the message. If the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded human history don't change the global environment for but a brief period (even though they spew hundreds of millions of tons of debris into the upper atmosphere), how can we say man does? 2) Commercial, electrical generating Nuclear Power Plants are the safest form of energy ever used in the United States. No person has ever died from a nuclear accident at such a plant. 3) Oil spills like the Valdez pose and do damage on a large scale to the local area where they occur. That damage does not linger for a long time, and has no global impact. 4) The amount of green-house gas we emit is minute in quantity to the natural environments emmissions, such as volcanoes and methane ocean release and animal / insect activity. 5) In totality we are not destroying our oceans. They are so massive we hardly show up on the scale. There are local issues. Some are locally devastating. There are no global issues. 6) Why are you alarmed? For instance, the South Pole Cap has more ice on it than in recent history. 7) The Ozone layer is cyclical in nature based upon Sunlight exposure. Ozone is created by the interaction of UV radiation from the Sun and Oxygen in our atmosphere. Nothing man does interferes with this process. Again, it is cyclical. If you want a thesis paper in a forum like this, good luck. I've already given references for what I've stated. I've not declared things moot just by saying so.

Who are we borrowing from? Perhaps the Chinese Communists? Or maybe the Islamic Revolutionaries in the Middle East? Wow.

That would be the south pole.

Thank you.

"I have long feared that my sins would return to visit me, and the cost would be more than I could bear." -Benjamin Martin (The Patriot)

"D'OH!" -Homer Simpson "Whether a glass is half full or half empty does not matter when you are thirsty." -Anonymous "Theory states that if you take a dozen monkeys, typing randomly over time, they will eventually type out the complete works of Shakespere. The internet has proven this wrong." -Anonymous "Do not confuse kindness with weakness." -Anonymous "If God does not smite America, he shall have to apologize to Sodom and Gommorah." -Rev. Billy Graham "Holy Cow!" -Ghandi's last words (just joking)

Seems like, by all indications, we're on the razor's edge of disaster. A real collapse is on the horizon.

I agree.

"When bad men combine, the good must unite. Else, they shall fall, one by one, an unpittied sacrafice, in a contemptable struggle." -Edmund Burke "Evil will always loudly denounce the quite beauty of virtue." -Me "Let us agitate ourselves, and our neighbors, to show the whole world that a free man, contending for liberty on his own ground, is superior to any mercenary on Earth!" -George Washington "Life is like a bowl of jello. You shake it a little and it gets all upset, but eventually it settles down." -Me "We have seen the enemy, and they are ours." -John Paul Jones "I only regret I have but one life to give." -Nathaniel Hawthorne "Let us have no further blind devotion to the communist dominated United Nations!" -Ezra Taft Benson