popatr

Here's how the "Doctrine and Covenants commentary puts it: Their time in hell helps take them from a condition where they are not able to live in a kingdom of glory, to one where they have "learned" enough that they can do so. Or as I would say it, a state of "no light" to a state of "a little light". I don't want to belabor this point though, or feel too attached to it. I am satisfied that they are in hell, possibly even outer darkness indeed, until the Lord rescues them. That is the key point anyway.

DC76 says what I've been saying, that telestial people reside in hell and are not delivered from the devil until the last resurrection. I'm not sure what you think my point is, or where the disagreement lies. Please expound.

I am fine conceding that Spirit prison and outer darkness are not the same concept. Moving forward is a semantic game, which is kind of a pointless game. Still, here's another attempt to word it: telestial people get spirit prison plus outer darkness, while terrestrial people get spirit prison minus outer darkness. America and Death valley are not the same concept, yet someone could be in America and Death valley OR could be in America and the redwoods;. And though both people are in America, they are having very different experiences. Anyway, I think the scriptures support my conclusions, but if you have a scriptural rebuttal I am interested in hearing it. I think that telestial people really don't have any light. Remember I said before that they are not really living a telestial law at the time of their death. I said I believed that self-interest motivated them. Shortsighted self-interest is completely lightless. But self-interest taught long-sightedness or wisdom by time in hell, gains the faintest spark of light, like a dim star. So they get out of outer darkness.

I too wish to moderate my reply. Your situation may be different than I first imagined. It may be right to stay with her, but only if she is willing to marry. Whether she wants kids is another question

I think, of necessity (reconciling all known scriptures about the state of soul between death and resurrection), we must conclude that spirit prison is divided into better and worse spheres. I do not believe for one moment that terrestrial and celestial spirit spend any time in outer darkness. Indeed they cannot, since they have some light.

Zero. Negative two, if you could. Your heart should be seeking for a relationship as God has defined it, rather than burning cycles elsewhere. Also, to put it bluntly, you are not young.

I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek or ironic when using the word "wisdom" which is why I put it in quotes and put it in close proximity to foolishness. So-called wisdom. My belief, or lack of it, maybe stems from my computer science background. I would compare absolute foreknowledge to a disk image of the entire universe. Such a thing is entirely static and essentially lifeless. A being who embodies such a disk image is stateless. It is hard to say he even thinks, as we comprehend it. The state is the state and we are just part of the state. What we'll do already exists fully realized and written to the disk image. I don't want to believe in, what feels to me, like a lifeless stateless being. Such doctrine tastes bad to me, at least how I've been able to season it.

Largely my own "wisdom". If it ends up being foolishness I hope God will forgive me.

Telestial people aren't actually living the telestial law at the time of their death. Just a portion. What does it mean to be quickened by a "portion" of a kingdom? Well, I think it refers to what reliably motivates you. For me, outer darkness people are unwilling to behave themselves, or subvert their ego, for any reason. They will gladly self-destruct rather than be subject to God or any law. Telestial kingdom people are willing to control themselves in self interest. Terrestial people are good and honorable for it's own sake, but still want autonomy. Celestial people are willing to have their will swallowed up in God because they love him so much. The motivations of a telestial person are insufficient to make them behave until they are forced to painfully learn and study their own self interest in hell, for a sufficiently long time that their self-interest is fully educated and fully wisened (the ability to see their self interest a long way off, way down in the future. They realize that no matter how much they gain by some selfish interest now, it won't be worth it in the long run so their behavior optimizes their happiness through civility etc, even though their natural motivations do not strictly dictate these behaviors) These musing are largely my own. I don't think they are entirely without scriptural (and general authority) support, but I don't wish to push them off as gospel truth--nor do I wish to try to prove them by extensive exegesis, as I'm more willing to do with what I think is actual vital doctrine.

No, I think spirit prison and "outer darkness" are EXACTLY the same for a telestial person. Alma 40:13-14 is in my scripture block above, and I think supports this well. It says that some reside in outer darkness until the time of their resurrection. It describes their torment as being horrible. DC76 from my scripture block says that some of them (most if we rely on lds thought in general) are delivered from the devil in the end. But a few unreedemable souls go back. DC76 says that only telestial people are cast into hell. So a terrestrial person, or a celestial person stuck waiting on ordinances, are NOT stuck in the same state as telestial people. Yes we still call their condition "spirit prison" but it is not the same.

To the OP, We need to believe the scripture which says it's theoretically possible to be fearless. There is a relationship between love and fear. We've heard elsewhere that there is a relationship between faith and fear. So there must be some sort of relationship between faith and love. I wonder what it is? We need to also listen to this scripture: Taken with other scriptures I think that we can make a strong case that God really does want us to cast fear out of lives in general. Like all of God's commandments, we should feel generally empowered to succeed at this. But also like all of God's commandments, I guess we have to accept that we will fail to be perfect. So if you are worried or afraid, don't be too hard on yourself. But I do think that casting out your fear could be viewed as an act of repentance.

While I take God's foreknowledge pretty seriously, I believe perfect/infinite foreknowledge is impossible, and is just one of those scriptural exaggerations (like endless punishment is a scriptural exaggeration "to be more express upon the mind")

I had no idea which part of my assertion needed support in your view. So I just tried to support the whole thing

The scriptures lay out that sinners of various sorts are cast down to hell. We (or I) do not deny that this happens. It does. The main points of disagreement we have with others, are 1) the nature of the torment (us = like a fire, similar to the sufferings of christ; them = literally a fire) 2) the duration. (us = it ends for almost everyone, but not quite everyone, them = forever for the most part) Now for some scriptural supports: These scriptures establish that telestial people are in hell until their resurrection. Their resurrection coincides with the end of the millenium Revelation 20 also helps establish, biblically, that people exit hell and are judged at that time: As for the duration of their torment (at least 1000 years), the scriptures make clear that telestial people are instakilled at the start of the millennium. (there are a few other scriptural proofs of the death of the wicked at the millennium) So, if the wicked are dead at the start of the thousand years and are not delivered until the end of the thousand years, then their hell lasts at least 1000 years.

I'll work on getting you that answer, if I'm able. It might take a while.

duplicate

I think our doctrine teaches that, those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom go straight to hell for at least 1000 years. So... not happiness. They're gonna be in a world of hurt. While Jesus' sacrifice is still the enabling power behind their eventual redemption from this hell, their own suffering is key too. (or so I say, and I think the scripture hints at it too because I'm convinced that God does not hurt people needlessly) Their suffering for their sins will be transformative, except for the most evil people (sons of perdition). It will make them fit for a kingdom of glory. If they truly come out of that suffering changed, then when they are given the Telestial Kingdom, at that time they are being restored from repentance to happiness, not sin to happiness.

My dad told me this joke long ago: What did the farmer say when he saw three deep holes in the ground? "Well well well"

We've been demolishing healthy roles and norms for a long time now. It is not good for society; and this fact can be judged not only spiritually but rationally. We know (because we've measured) that children raised together by their biological parents, have the best outcomes statistically. Level of schooling, work stability, criminality, are metrics most people can agree on. We know (because we've measured, but I'll stop saying this now) that children spending too much time in daycare tend to have worse outcomes. We know that homosexuals have higher rates of crime and abuse among themselves (not from the outside) We know that homosexuals have a higher propensity for unhealthy and disgusting practices, which have little to do with love, as the monkeypox outbreak has re-highlighted. We know divorce is a crazy pandemic at this time which is a shame given the facts about how healthy relationships bless children. We know that birthrates are crashing around the world including in Utah. However rationally someone may desire a population collapse, they have to know that it will be a problem someday. It's a problem which doesn't go away as soon as a country decides more kids are wanted, as china has proved. Peoples minds and hearts have been polluted with misguided selfishness which doesn't stop when someone says stop. We know that lgbt people have more mental health issues, more substance abuse. We know that trangender people have a truly catastrophic suicide rate which is not mitigated by living in a permissive society. We have strong reason to believe that this suicide was not as common before society became sickened with this mind virus. (I mean that we don't think that these people were quietly committing suicide in the past, under the radar. Instead their embracing of the mind virus is actually causing it)

The Book of Mormon requires us to believe in a massive conspiracy, but it doesn't say enough to make us know for sure who or what are the key players "in the know". And here is the problem with Alex Jones and other conspiracy theorists: their failures end up serving the devil quite well. We all know the image of a tinfoil-hat wearing nut, (and plenty of people deserve the image with all the ridicule it entails)... and it makes people unable to even think about conspiracy or be mindful of it, because they don't want to be like THEM. As such we need to be careful about KNOWING stuff. Keep your testimony simple, about Jesus and his church, and strictly within the bounds the scriptures lay out; and let the rest be speculation. By so doing we won't serve the devil accidentally, like I think Alex Jones has.

I think that intent or no, Jones is a problem who probably deserves some kind of punishment if he's damaging people's lives in provable ways. Speaking generally about "intent": God judges intent, we know that. But humans can't reliably judge intent, nor should we ALWAYS stay our hand based on our best guess of intent. Here is a contrived scenario: If we find someone who kills repeatedly with apparent hate and evil, that person should certainly be stopped one way or another. But what if you could find a person who kills repeatedly because he poisonous? (just go with it) He has no intention of killing people but in the end it doesn't matter to the people killed and the rest of the people who aren't safe. They are fully justified in finding a way of dealing with him, even if the only options they can find are death or extreme exile. Maybe more realisitically, what if someone kills because they are stark raving mad? Do we care? Maybe if we can cure them. But if not, we are justified (and even morally obligated) to find some final solution for this murderer. In a less extreme, real-life example: My oldest kid is somewhat accident prone. Yet it is not in my best interests OR EVEN HIS to let him off scott-free for all innocent evils he brings into the world. At a minimum he needs to work to clean up his messes; and my consequences ramp up if I cannot detect he is taking responsibility to heart. People need to feel incentives to not only mean well, but to actually do well.