WANDERER

Hey Hoosier, as always, glad to see you doing so well....and you always ask...and I always say...no LOL. But hey, I'm happy that it is blessing your life so much : ). Thankyou for your input. Traveller, that's an interesting point of view...but since we understand that God wasn't cursing her for not consulting Him on taking the apple...it doesn't quite fit. But I'm glad that you shared that point of view because I will think more on it. You have great insights on things. Dove I'm not sure I want to cross the line. There is no doubt that there are men who are called by God and fulfil that calling and covenant well. I don't think anyone should take away from the value and worth of what they do. It is a blessing to the church. However, I wonder if some of the traditionalism and cultural aspects and beliefs do need further thought. As nurturing children becomes more of a joint role between fathers and mothers in our society (as it always should have been...it is SO important) I wonder whether nurturing the church should also be more of a joint responsibility and whether some aspects of both roles can be shared within the church. In some cases it may be needed to ensure equal family time for both parents. There may be some guys that are very good at relief society work and vice versa. Okay...that's on a pragmatic viewpoint of what it means to work together as a team and in unity and bless each other. Is this as pragmatic as I think it would be...well, it's not possible in many cases. We do what we can with what we are given and God blesses us according to this. On a spiritual level: God made both man and woman in His image. One image. Not a half of His image each. The church is the Bride of Christ....one body in unity and wholeness. Are we able to truly comprehend these things and the mind of God....to understand the whole we break it up into parts that make up the whole and is this how we are meant to function or just the best we can do as humans or as many think... a division of things as the end result of the curse? We make man and woman in different images: priesthood, relief society etc. While we are different, in God's perception we are His image. I can't seem to understand how that is or will ever be. We are all so diverse. It would seem not post resurrection either. What does this mean and will we ever know. There seems to be a bit of a cultural thing in terms of Paul's letters and the differing levels of involvement of women in the early church and in instruction about involvement. Some groups identify this and explain it away as what was needed for the early growth of the church...and that later instruction was given and we should follow this. There is no doubt that there has been some distortations from the Bible regarding the status and treatment of women. Some studies have shown (as with all social analysis, taken with a grain of salt as locality, purpose and intent and interpretation of the study, and culture and time influences everything) that women identify with their religion in a matrilineal way....they will talk about the women in their family that were and are women of God and have that oral history keeper role. I can see that happening in my own life. Men in these studies have tended to identify with roles and positions played. I have no idea about this. THose that are not religiously practicing: a larger number of women identify as being religious but not part of a religion/a larger number of men will identify with being atheist. Whether this will change with time as women's roles and functions within society continue to change...who knows? How accurate this study is...I haven't decided. But since women's ordination is such a media issue it does help to consider what contexts people may be coming from and the dissention that has happened...Anglican is a majority religion here so I'm curious about the topic. I have met married couples who have operated in unity on ministry...where one slips into the role as equally as the other...and it is such a wonderful thing to see both supporting each other...there's no need to seek out someone to take on the job if one of them is sick because they do it seamlessly and are one in purpose. Admittedly, not everyone is called to serve and I'm sure that there are husbands and wives who would rather be the background support in a ministry. I can see a parallel in LDS views on how husbands and wives should support each other...but there are limitations on what one can do. I have wondered whether women would wish to be more active in the baptism of their children sometimes and for both parents to rest their hand on their child and dedicate them to God. However, I'm sure some women don't mind not getting wet and are happy to make a digital record for the family. I don't think it's about pride...I think the wish to be involved for those that do is sometimes a supressed calling...you would like to...but it's not your place to do so and you do so with your heart. Although, God chooses whom he will and there are many women within the church who are highly valued whether they are given a title or not...because of the way in which God uses them to bless others...they can't help but minister. I'm sure that it is not easy to be in that position. Will Eve's curse ever be removed in many people's minds...? I'm glad for this much of a restoration as I find that there is truth in this...if I understand it correctly. But yes...I think a multiplicity of sorrow exists....imagine a beautiful temple...in which you can enter...but you cannot speak or do anything much...besides clean it or make it pretty. THis is church for many women. I think of the words a dispossessed people...they cannot inherit...at least publicly to a degree... what the Holy Spirit gifts them with as a blessing to the church. They are baptised...but no immersion can ever get rid of Eve's curse. We talk a good deal about submitting wives to the rulership of their husbands...but when was the last time we gave a good talk about how men should submit to the curse of the ground, food should be brought forth in their sweat and that supermarkets, especially air-conditioned, are evil...laughable really...how did things ever get this way?

I don't know that its about pridefulness....just...you know I was looking up things on the net to find out what the whole perspective on that was across different belief systems...and this one page rabbitted on explaining...the whole women are not to teach men thing...wasn't meant for outside the church..and it was okay to be a teacher/a boss/or whatever profession....and you know...the Bible has been used to justify so many things and I kind of felt sorry that someone felt they needed to explain that to anyone or that there was anyone that was so burdened that they needed a lifeline cause they thought they were damned to hell for it. Does that make sense?

I don't think praying in thees and thous is up for debate...how other people pray to God is their decision and such things should be respected. Culturally: LOL at, "Isn't Austrayan good enough for ya to pray in mate?" I reckon that might be it in a nutshell.

Being a wife and mother is not belittling. Nor is being a husband and father. I wish there was never any need to say this but just a common understanding that everybody held. I was thinking about this today... ... and I came up more questions... what happened in the pre-existence to cause some to be set under the rulership of others? So if it's not seen as a curse but a natural consequence of sin...how did those in the pre-existence come to deserve this? How did some end up under this covenant and others get another? The only thing I can think of is choice? If it is such a blessing and people chose to be blessed in this way...why does God consider this blessing a multiplicity of sorrow? And why are then women according to the teachings of Paul...subject to their husbands rather than directly to God? Does God choose those he ordains on the basis of being less worthy or more worthy? Does a perfect God choose less worthy people...that doesn't make sense within the context of the story of the pre-existence and if we can't consider motherhood and priesthood of less value to each other...why is there a degree of separation from God and in activities that are directly related to the affairs of His church on earth? And how is it offensive to God for women to not be subject to the rulership of husbands and why does He choose to separate women from most aspects of direct church involvement? Don't families need their fathers too? So if the role of fatherhood doesn't disclude them...then why the limitation on motherhood? I'd like to understand what it is that LDS think on this. Please don't interpret this as an attack on personal values or choices...I'm just trying to understand what it is that God has in mind and how this all relates to each other and to try to piece things together for myself.

If there's a spider in the shower I just step aside, turn the hotwater onto super hot and wash it down the drain. The shower is roomy enough to do that. Although sometimes there are the big hairy ones that run fast and won't fit down a plughole *they sometimes bite, but rarely* and that's kind of like a full fledged mission. I've never been all that good at dustpanning them outside (I try not to use toxic sprays or kill spiders that are relatively harmless...I kill redbacks, allow the cats to play with daddy long legs and de-leg them and remove the others to the garden where they can do their job).

Perhaps it's a specific statement to Eve. I have to admit I'm a little confused: original sin/curse of Eve...does it fit into LDS beliefs? Or does it slot into experiencing life and learning what a spiritual body could not tell us...is that a multiplication of sorrow? Should it be? And how does sorrow link up to the decision to have a family and get married? The ruling over seems a specific pointer...did God decide on that plan? And is this the way it will be in celestial heaven? Why is there no sorrow in heaven if this is the case? I wonder if the sorrowing is over agency...not agency itself...but seeing the consequences and wanting to protect loved ones from them..: both children and partner... THinking aloud and trying to parse into an LDS framework...but of course....I'm not LDS.

you can look at it as wrong...or as another teachable moment

Um thanks Pale...but not for me...while some may think of it as a King James dialect...in my head I imagine it as Shakespearean and it gives me the giggles (I know the era is wrong). It's not that I find it funny that people do...it's just me doing it that's funny. It just seems to distance things...I keep thinking soliloquy. But then I haven't grown up with people who practice this as any part of my experiences. I think the last time I explored the idea it was along the lines of not every Bible can be written in King James version because language doesn't allow it...therefore they don't have the words to pray in this way either unless they borrow english ones. Is it in keeping with the reasons for writing the King James Bible? Is it just another latinisation for modern times? Was that the intent? Anyway that's my personal take on it. No one has to agree with me. Yes I know...save the whales, paternity leave, human rights issues and all of that..and keep alive the dream that Heavenly Father should be easily accessible to all who seek him...I'm such a banner bearer. Yes at times, it has a slight pukeability factor...but that's who I am.

Would you use the word Lord?

Right. So this is in the category of weird questions to ask LDS people *blush*. I'm so clueless.

When I look at the complexity of DNA and all of creation I'm truly awed. I'm just grateful He did such a good job...things could be way more dire than a bit of flatulence...hands up if you wanted to be more like mould instead...no complaints from this little duck.

There was this pastor...and he organised a Christmas box for my family and supermarket food checks of really small amounts (but Mum said we had to buy Xmas stuff with it..not staples...and it took us forever to work out what was the best treat)...and even when Mum said we're right, bless someone else like you have blessed us...the doorbell rang on Christmas Eve. We were going to have tinned baby carrots, tinned beans, some chicken and we had a Christmas cake *honestly we didn't know what Xmas cake was until we had food parcels* and we had a tree...and we were all pretty excited about that anyway...but joy to the world. It mattered. Anyway, my Mum got smart and donated what she could afford secretly to the Xmas parcel mission...we put stuff in we wouldn't think of getting like Spam Ham in a Xmas tin...that was our job to sneak it in and we loved doing it...a toy perhaps. I loved him to death as a kid for making Xmas the time of the year when we knew we weren't alone in all our struggles. Oh yeah, and today I was trying to take out a trolley juggling stuff in one hand and shopping bags in the other...I'd bought a whole heap of wool and needles at the end of winter sale, and this really neat trolley guy pulled one out for me with the biggest smile...that made my day....because he was so happy to help. I must have looked quite a picture trying not to stab myself with errant needles LOL.

Hey I'm still confused..as I am about many things. Who do you address the bulk of your prayers to? a) Heavenly Father b) Jesus c) The Holy Spirit d) The prayers reach all three regardless of Whom you address at the opening of your prayer e) Non pollable option: It doesn't matter Just wondering what people's thoughts are.

To know God more fully of course. Oh yeah...well it would set to rest any doubts...(I'm not LDS...).

I love that statement...on so many different levels

When in situations where I feel the only thing I can contribute to a discussion is conflict...and they're my friends or I'm being friendly...I just ask questions. That way I contribute to the discussion and show that I value their beliefs etc because they are important to them. I don't put them under seige by asking them questions that are going to upset them or make them feel stressed. But you know, sometimes you can't help yourself, you care...so...I may ask a question that I think will help direct their thinking towards a solution or more thought on the topic. If it was out of sync with where they are they either ignore it or interpret it differently. If they look a bit non-plussed I change the topic or repeat the views partially that I do agree with...cause I don't want them to think I'm attacking what is important to them *reinforce what is common between us type thingy*. Sooner or later they may directly say what they guess already...you don't think the same way they do about it...and the answer to that is no, but I understand how they feel about it. If you enter into a conversation and there is going to be debate or conflict..well...it all depends on the level of trust and respect you have built with that person how they respond to that..whether the agree to disagree factor is there. And if you are going to plunk them into a conflict situation...is it helpful or well-intentioned? Are you just telling them stuff they don't want to or are not ready to hear...are you going to dip your feet into the water and test to see how receptive they are to talking about it first? It's not about winning or losing...it's about caring about people. Having a one-way discussion on what you believe isn't really a conversation...but I understand the temptation particularly if you're getting a bit of an ear-battering on stuff that conflicts with your values. Probably best to sit-it-out. You could also look at it another way...listening in on conversations like this may give you insight ...this may not be the opportunity you are preparing for ; )

What people usually do is begin their post that follows it with... from the LDS perspective...and carry on. In any case it's usually one post and the entire thread is usually the LDS perspective and it stands out a mile away *or it will* LOL. For your amusement: When I joined you had to state your religion and it was on your profile. I think one of the choices was LDS/Christian and that confused me to death...couldn't I be Christian and not LDS? I can't remember what I selected...I think it was other.

In context of the second coming I think that: All ten virgins knew He was coming...but....one group had believed a false rumor that the bridegroom would come early so they only needed a little oil. Perhaps, speculating a little, out of the two thirds, some might have given support to the wrong plan... but followed Heavenly Father's vote because they had wisdom enough, if not of their own.

It's a difficult one...so I'll share my path of learning and how I deal with things: You can try to fix things and repair them. If you take this path...never lose vigilance. Yes, you're an adult now, you know how to stay safe, they have changed and it all happened years ago and it's been years since anything bad has happened. The thing is you never know when life's stressors can cause a regression. Okay, so I lived. Don't do what I did...stay careful. Secondly..even if you have no verbal or physical contact with them and haven't for many years be cautious. I'd been out gardening in the back yard and I was covered in mud so I took a shower. I got changed in the bedroom, door open...and when I walked into the loungeroom there they were. They'd entered into the house unannounced cause I'd accidently left the sliding door open. I have an intercom and a doorbell. They chose the back way. Yes, they had been watching all the time. Okay, I lived throught that one too and I'm a tad more cautious now. Thirdly you're always going to have to deal with good intentioned people who feel very strongly about this commandment. There's a choice to the way in which you react to it. I choose to think it's very nice...there's a world of light out there and thank goodness that there is. I think spending time with people who are like this is good for me...it is affirming that there is plenty of good in the world. Providing experiences are mostly good, except for the occasional gnawing on this topic..it can be healing. Fourthly what to do with people who put you under pressure and badger you and won't let it go. Well you can choose to tell them exactly what has happened to you and all the dark stories you have. This is a defensive reaction and it's generally met with a defensive reaction. If they had the capacity for empathy and understanding they would have backed off. I choose not to do this because there's nothing positive to be gained out of it. Lastly...they won't back off and you can't evade it or walk away...open up the conversation. They don't see you...or they wouldn't be doing this. Get them talking...there is something they need to talk about. As a survivor of childhood abuse your life depended on being able to read bodylanguage and subtext in conversations....you'll probably clue in to what they're saying and what they're not saying. If you can't help them at least you will have a little more understanding as to why they are the way they are about it. You don't have to say anything at all...just ask them questions and listen. People have their reasons for things. I don't have any anger or hatred about it at all. I'm fine. My life is good. It doesn't have to happen anymore and I definitely don't need to relive any part of it. I didn't get to this point overnight...and I'm not perfect. The thing is...I owe it to myself to be good to myself. On the loving one another as I have loved you/love your enemy/turn the other cheek/forgiveness commandment...lemonaide out of lemons and all that...I don't see that there is any other choice. Hatred can block so many other positive aspects that you could and should invite into your life.

As a newspaper headline: government likened to Satan and gays likened to evil demonic angels.... Does that sound about right to you?

A secret society to combat a secret society...it's confusing no?

I found it odd likening the battle of Heaven to the battle over same sex marriage. Doesn't that trivialise the war in Heaven a little? Sorry, but the first event and the second event are not equivalent. I'm just wondering what event on earth you would equate the Resurrection and atonement with...it's...just...not...comparable. Would you liken it to having the legislation revoked? My head so can't go there.

To honor...they made one important choice...you. So to a certain extent that is where the honor comes in...respecting yourself and not seeing yourself as the child of abusers...but who they might have been if they chose God's principles...the honor is in honoring yourself...you are God's creation. Honoring your parents in the Bible is said to allow you a long life...that… you may live a long time in the land..and and that it may go well with you (all of you) in the land that your Lord is giving you." In other words for generations to respect each other is beneficial in the growth and prosperity of a nation. I tend to see it as honoring your life that is the key point. The root of the Hebrew word for honor means to "weigh heavy" to give seriousness too. To give value to. To give value to producing life...to honour being a parent. It does not please God when parents do not teach His children to honor and obey the office of parent because parents weigh heavily on their children. You are honoring your parents when you are upset that they messed up their lives and the lives of their children. If you could change it you would....i.e. postitive acts to help...and there is no doubt that children try very hard in these situations. Qualifier: And fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.” In such a situation, honor can still involve positive acts to help them, improve their lives, to the degree we are able. Or perhaps to honor them by living your life in a positive way is a positive act in itself. Genealogy is healing in a way...one long line of extended family all the way back to Adam and Eve (tho you might not get that far ; ) ....who struggled and endured...and then there's you. When God created Adam and Eve, God had you in mind. My mother...who had not much good to say about her family...ever...(she had a pretty bad relationship with her Dad) gave a gruff pronouncement over my genealogical research..."See I told you we came from good stock," and asked to borrow it and read it. It's not that bad doing genealogy...a few skeletons rattle...but mostly it's like unwrapping something so immense you wonder how the line continued through all of histories monumental disasters...miraculous really. Don't be put off by people being judgemental...you can honor your parents...but you cannot make the whole commandment work all on your own...the essence of it as much as it applies to your actions and choices is all that you can do. There is no need to subject yourself to further abuse...that doesn't bring honour to anyone. 20, 30, 40 years from now do you still want to be hating them even though you haven't lived with your family and been subject to that behaviour for many decades? Somewhere along the line you will realise that you have lived more years away from your parents than you actually lived with them. There is no sense in holding on to those bad feelings and clouding your life.

I believe the phrase I have come to agree with is that the Bible is the *inspired word of God*. There's probably room for a bit of historical understanding underlying what has happened to the various texts etc and things in context and so on. But the real value of the Bible is not in reading words but in revelation and understanding how we can apply God's principles to our lives. I don't think there's anyone who follows things word by word right down to the Levitical way of life and there's probably areas where faith and belief and interpretations differ over accounts. So I think being a Bible fundamentalist may mean different things to different people.

Three percent... Jesus was talking about the last days when departing from the temple. and how they would know when He would come again... He makes several temple references: present day reference in the parable of the talents: the money exchangers and usury going on in the temple...at least the servant should have done that with the money...even though it was considered the worst way to make a profit (they were extorting the poor people who came to buy the offerings..not just the foreigners who had to trade in their coinage for a shekel). future reference: weddings....the stomping of the glass at the end of the wedding ceremony... not one stone of the temple would be left standing/the return of Christ the bridegroom and the rebuilding of the temple past prophecy reference: Daniel. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) And there you have it...unfaithful, unprepared and unprofitable servants in the last days when the love of most will grow cold and many will turn away. But you know: not having half a litre of oil or 9 ounces to fill an olive oil lamp (people used oil for everything: cooking, light...this would be like not paying your electricity bill...brides had to have everything ready to go by their bed...*so how many of them didn't have any oil when their hubbies came to collect them and weren't properly prepared for their wedding after a whole year*) or letting a million dollars lie buried in the ground...we're talking the kind of worthless servants no one would hire to put in charge of anything or rule over much. Now if you can't be on time for the second coming with all those trumpets blowing ...you're not ready for it and scurry off and show up late...you're frightened of the accounting and the hardness of the Lord and are silly enough to justify your lack of action during the accounting by calling Him a hard master..it has a certain *doh* factor to it. So the whole of Matthew 24 and 25 about what it will be like... centres on loving God and loving others and how He will know and recognise us by our hearts... On the possible heartlessness of wise virgins...welllll...they didn't know how long it was until the groom would arrive after the trumpeting herald...they thought that there would be just enough time for the other girls to go and get some oil and that they could possibly run out. No one knoweth the hour and all that. Since Jesus used the word wise...we can assume there wasn't any evil intent behind their actions. So...not a good idea to rely on association and the wisdom of others to bail you out one might assume. That covers the one third who thought it was a pretty good idea at the time and got stuck with their choice.