WANDERER

To Elphie: for sharing the love of history and being true to what you value To Tom: for making me think more deeply... To Ram: for saying things like they are and : ) for changing your avatar To Miss Halfway: Cause your quiet grace in all situations is a healing balm. To Listener: for caring deeply about others. To Pam: for having a sense of humour ...you're right about stew : ) To Margin of Error: for keeping it real To Moshka: you have a big heart To HiJolly: for sincerity To Pale: a lot of wisdom in very few words To Hoosier Guy: for continuing to ask To Nappaljarri: for being a friend To Traveller and Fiannan and Vort: for getting into discussions on stuff with a heathen, we don't talk the same language ...but that's okay... To Ceboo: for making me laugh....and for being friendly To PC: for cueing me in and explaining stuff To D.S: for giving perspective to things To Kona: I don't get everything either... To Hemi: for being giving To Gwen: for your kindness to others To Nate: for speaking Oz To Mailis and Checkers: for being a welcoming committee (I haven't forgotten) To Pink Cow: cause I love your posts. Don't ever change. To OtterPop: you tell it like it is To Iggy: for starting this thread. I don’t know if there’s enough room and I’ve probably left heaps of people out.

LOL Go the Marones.

Junia Junia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia No, I have only ever had one time where I couldn't log on and that was because the site was down. Nappaljarri...well one person doesn't think so LOL.

How about Bert give up his agency and submit to selflessness and Dove realise her weaknesses are her greatest strengths? Just a thought : )

Thankyou Dove...I think that is very good advice. I choose joy. Anything that sucks that out of my life is not something I should be giving time to.

For entertainment purposes they're all good to go : ) It's essentially harmless whether people believe in these things or not, and they are welcome, *I'm not going to give them a hard time over it*. I'm open to scientific proof...here's to all the things we don't know for certainty...but I don't subscribe to any of them.

Bert I'm not altogether sure how to respond to you....if women are easily deceived and that is a weakness of their gender then that kind of invalidates any response range I may have from personal thought and feelings to expressing them on a forum post. Perhaps I misunderstand and have missed the intent of your post. Rich..I'll concede the possible non-existence of Paul's cousin over to you, because the point is that women in the church who took on active roles existed... : ). I've only spent a couple of weeks of spare time pursuing the topic and trying to understand it a bit better so that I can understand different perspectives better (it's not a life issue because it's not something I come across anywhere else except on these forums). The direction of my thinking, well, was the practice similar to the principles involved in the Law of Consecration ...except that it involved people? But I'm still praying, reading, seeking God's will and pondering on that. I understand the principle of ongoing revelation and obedience to that. I appreciate your honesty in discussing your beliefs...and I realise that this can be a *tired* topic.

As a women I tend to think of it as enabling...good leaders enable and empower others to solve problems. My male boss, who is very traditional, says do this and afterwards says *now you don't have to worry about it anymore...problem solved...he's also army LOL*. My female bosses, who are also pretty traditional, say, *don't worry about it, you just have to do this*. My male best-friend who isn't very traditional says, *vent away* vents with me, suggests crazy solutions that will make me laugh (you know how not to solve it) ...narrates similar problems (advice is always subjective to experience and success stories are always good to share) and just says great solution when it's no longer a problem. My female friends who are non-traditional do the same. I often think the difference is that traditional men and women won't talk about their problems until they have distanced themselves enough emotionally from the problem to talk about it. They dispense advice in the same way, assuming you're already in that headspace. Flight/fight reactive/proactive response...some are still in flight LOL. But yeah, giving advice to someone is in a current state of self-nominated time-out...

Synonym checker: Transgression: breach, crime, disobedience, error, infraction, infringement, misbehavior, misdeed, offense, sin, trespass, violation, wrongdoing. Consequence: account, aftereffect, aftermath, cachet, concern, consecution, consideration, effect, end, event, eventuality, fallout, fruit, importance, issue, moment, outcome, payback, prestige, prominence, pursuance, rank, repercussion, result, sequel, sequela, sequence, stature, upshot, weight, worth, punishment. Curse of Eve = Transgression of Eve ...except curses are really blessings? The consequence of sin is separation from God, also known as the "curse of God"....how is separation from God a blessing? Good gifts and all that.

Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church. Does Christ so love the church that He doesn't see fit to ordinate anyone to priesthood? But Lord, Lord we did all of these things in Your name. Submit one to another. It's a clear teaching. But I'll clarify what I see to be clear in that teaching...neither children, nor men, nor women rule over each other...for Christ is the head of the church...just as we are the body of Christ we all work together in unity.

Heh heh... when is the last time you saw a group of women sitting around watching a football game, drinking beer, belching, slapping each other on the bottom, waving their fists in the air and chanting oo .. oo.. oo.. like a bunch of orangutans. Don't you do this over there? I have seen female netball and hockey crowds do this...often and frequently and worse than guys. And yep...footy fans of either sex. Admittedly I have also participated : ) . It's quite socially acceptable. I'm in Australia : )))) But currently I only make an effort once a year for State of Origin by pulling out the right colour sweater...because the wrong colour sweater is fatal. To be honest I see cultural gender differences slipping away between each generation. And I think that the reality is...the gap where women say they are religous but don't actually attend church will just widen for women over time...perhaps to the point of not being religious at all. Because they are told that God likes men to rule over women and have seen the worst of it...there's always someone who takes that to an extreme and uses it as a form of abuse. Are there differences...there are actually differences between men and other men and women and other women...and a great deal of commonality besides...we're not a separate species for goodness sake. Never before have we been more aware of the genetic diversity within humanity...Do we acknowledge individual differences and use them to disclude others...or is that considered offensive? Mmmmm..I don't think God is all that old-fashioned ......apparently you are allowed your AGENCY. There were females involved in the early church quite actively and Paul's female cousin was an Apostle. There were women present when the early church received the gift of the Holy Spirit...surely God meant them to use it. And women were present on Christ's ministry.

This story was supposed to have come directly from a Morman. As usual I was the last to hear it LOL, because I was the youngest (we were all the same age, but my birthday was last). My friend said she couldn't possibly tell me, but after much persuasion, she whispered it into my ear. I was told that no, Mormons do not shower with their undies on...but they do put their nickers on the shower floor and they keep one foot in contact with it while having their shower instead...and that they do this out of modesty. But the funniest thing was when someone in our group said they ACTUALLY decided to try it out and they did feel holier. Okay, we were all under the age of fourteen and pretty naive. We knew nothing about Mormons at all.

May I recommend videojug: it's a how to website (sort of like youtube meets lifestyle channel) where they give video instructions on how to do a whole lot of things (change lightbulbs, clean and lots of basics). I used it for "Can't Garden" LOL. Food & Drink - advice videos on Food Recipes, Drinks, Cooking Tips & Techniques 1707 how to cook *whatever* short vidguides...have fun : )

There is an offical amnesty granted to all new posters on this forum in regards to all accidental blunders ...or there should be ; ) Welcome.

Ask Ki to join you for lunch...and if he asks whether you're an item...thank him profusely for getting you together...and mention how the Lord work in mysterious ways. LOL. Worth a try.

I'd probably leave everything religious out of it...and just mention what you liked about the friendship and that you wished that it could continue (or how you could see it continuing) ..but that you respect her wishes and feelings. I think it's good to get those feelings out and on paper cause it is hurtful that your friend would feel this way...and you have written a very good answer to those questions she may have about the LDS church. But though defending your faith may make you feel better...... is it pushing your religion on her. And are your beliefs really open to debate. I wouldn't even go there. Because they are not...and they shouldn't be. Write a letter with love in it only...just a thought.

Your kidding right......Rich that's funny.... How exactly do you use your different body parts to support your job role in church ministry? Quick summary : the reasons are: female plumbing; female plumbing inconveniences work agendas and a total inability for women and men to agree without contention.... Bless ya Rich...we've probably got a bit of a generation gap going cause I'd be out of work if I held any of the above beliefs or used them as an excuse ......and oh my...GenZ is going to be a gulf away from understanding any of that.... Men vs women is from the seventies. We're thirty years ahead of that and trying to work out how to find balance and respect. The thing is we're still pretty much still caught up in the whole crossfire of men vs women. I don't understand the hoopla and ballyhoo over it either...there is nothing gender-defining in the ability to use oil to annoint or in the ability to use oil to cook. If we believe all roles are of equal value...and gender doesn't determine a person's value...then the discussion is pretty much over. And to the heart of the thread topic: If the state of things today is a consequence of transgressing rather than a curse...wouldn't it be a good idea to stop transgressing?

It would probably be best if it were highly portable.

Scolding abstract nouns: BAD decision, SILLY offence, WRONG choice...is it really all that successful at depersonalising a judgement. What should the language of prayer sound like?

N, Thankyou for your thoughtful feedback. RS is an appendage of the priesthood, therefore we are their arms and legs, we are doing priesthood work ,when we obey our RS presidents in doing good works among the church and in our communities Sorry, but I tend to think.....not an appendage to priesthood, appendages to Christ...Christ is the head...the church is the body...Priests are also appendages...as the Apostle Paul thought of himself. Is this similar to LDS beliefs? The women of this church are the arms and legs and brains and heart of the work of the priesthood, Whose body/Whose work? Feet don't rule over hands...lungs don't rule over legs......submit to one another out of reverence to Christ and with respect.... wives to husbands...husbands to wives...women to men (and does that include men to women or does that sound shocking and why?) ..making every effort towards unity and peace as members Once again, I think this attitude can lead to competition between the sexes. If there is a thought process of sexes competing, this is Satan fueling fire that is not there. It sure is not God’s design to have women and men worry about their role, he is the law maker and he has set the law and it is eternal (not subject to the fashions and cultures of the day Napaljarra, I don't wish to make you feel under attack ...and I think your heart is in the right place...even if I have singled out some of the things you have said with a question mark (I'm not LDS so I may not understand the terminology or the context of what you are saying). I like the fact that you focus on unity and the importance of teamwork, purpose and love and unity. I thing you have a strong sense of what is right and yes, disunity is a very unproductive thing and not God's teaching. The church must operate as a whole. I agree. Is Christ divided? There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus ...Paul says. Where does the idea of competition come from? Does it have to be that way? But things are what they are. C'est la vie.

Dove ... I garden. A flowering seed generally gains genetic material through crosspollination...so yes, we can liken them to children. A seed has a complete food source and doesn't need nutrients from the soil...i.e. you can grow one on cotton or on a paper towel...this food store enables it to produce leaves so that it can photosynthesise...and make it's own food, by the time the seed store has run out. Some of this allegorical type language is historical...it's related to a belief that complete life was provided from the father (a child) and the mother was earth (a container providing nourishment). However there were other views on reproduction throughout history that were not quite as diminishing. But you know some really absurd things happened...like noting that a female reproductive system had *horns*. Ummm....plants don't raise their seeds. Apparently mother earth did all that...so I'm not so sure that the allegory has been entirely beneficial to the family throughout history. But yes...without this transgression or sin...there would be no children. And yes...the ability to produce food and nurture children was needed....that's a neat way of thinking about the roles that both Adam and Eve took on (and they did have to share these roles) as a result of knowledge and how it was a blessing. Dove I simply see priesthood holders as serving God by serving His people (as we all do in our own capacity) and that discernment should be applied...not all the authority that people *believe or insist* they have comes from God. So the same tests that one applies to any spiritual revelation should operate. If women are capable of being asked is the Church true...then they are capable of personal revelation... one would hope everyone could agree on that.... Ummm, the choice on whether or not to sustain someone in their calling ...well human error is what it is...but if God is not there as their sustanance ...there's not a whole lot to sustain or give authority too. I think you were better off without your last Bishop's prayers. I think there's a lot of stuff that is tradition and culture...how many generations will it hurt...not sure. But I hope for much.

Vort..ya can't call someone silly because they don't believe what you do about about using such words...Silly : ) I believe foolish would be a better KJ choice and have more scriptural authority...or perhaps none... Actually the question is relevant to me...because we have pronouns of sufficient clarity and expression to use when we talk with God... so taking offense at using them seems equally incomprehensible to me. What the characteristics of respectful language are seems quite on topic, in my humble opinion LOL when discussing the use of formalised prayer. What other aspects of prayer are formalised...is there a sense that KJV words other than thee and thou are also respectful...?

Sorry...I'm afraid that I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...but that doesn't mean that I can't respect the point of view of Elder Oaks and the perspective of those of the LDS faith. Vort...we've already had a discussion about language and semantics before...I recall it well...let me refresh your memory...whoremongers and whores remember. Now I'm a little confused about your perspective: I believe you advocated that precise language could not be offensive.

Thanks Carol...I realise now LOL. But I think the thread has turned into a very thoughtful discussion on how we should pray......which is great : ) Whether LDS or not...everyone can contribute to a discussion on that. Nate...the explanation was great. Unfortuneately it took me a very long time to go from rote learned prayers (not a whole lot...looked up in the library and Bible, and prayers I had heard and repeated as a matter of fact) to being able to think of a prayer for myself and realise this was acceptable as a kid ...my parents believed in allowing me to find out for myself on all matters of religion. And yes, I used thees and thous and thines, because King James was all I had...and... I asked God for a lot of help. But thankyou for the link.

Interesting perspective Miss Halfway. I work in a job where I'm required to be judgemental/critical and in a positive way...if I'm going to say that work looks a little untidy...usually in the form of *Do you need some help?* : ) I'd better be in there helping them trying to neaten it up and offer useful advice that they want to hear and can value and is at a level they find useful. And I had better have that trust basis before I even go in there to help in any way, shape or form..because they can't listen to me when they're still trying to decide whether interacting with me is going to be a bad thing or not. So I see it as a level of commitment...judgment is okay when you support and help and it has a caring apect to it. It also requires permission. To enable others and to help them achieve success...that's okay. To a certain degree we do use value judgements to affirm what we have in common and as a way of connecting with others...but this can also isolate others and ourselves. It can also be beneficial to explore diversity in some cases...and tolerance at the same time. It can be helpful to clarify values and develop our understanding of what it means to value something and how we do that in practice. But it is a very difficult thing to do...with respect and without compromising values that are important to us. I think people differ on their skill levels on this and their level of emotional angst within conflict situations. There are always some *no go* areas...and I guess learning the skills for recognising your own boundaries and what you can and can't cope with are also needed and also for recognising when you have crossed the boundaries of others. The opposite of judgement is forgiveness...perhaps focussing on being forgiving is the key factor....you don't need a reason, understanding,an explanation or an excuse...though they can help...most times you won't be that lucky....but might as well let it go. There's a lot you will never know that lies behind other people's actions. There is also the flip side of judgement...it isn't all bad...we judge that we like people and that they're okay : )