Traveler

The Traveler Well, I guess it won't happen in the United State or Europe since the majority of us are Christians. You missed the point - the Ancient Anti-Christ were all Hebrews and of the house of Israel and claimed be be under covenant with G-d. A modern day Pharisee will be connected to "traditional Christianity" in the same manner ancient Anti-Christ (Scribes and Pharisees) were conected to the traditions of "Israel". But just being a scribe or Pharisee did not make them Anti-Christ. There was more to it.

There is some question about the LDS religion being legal in Saudi Arabia. I contacted a friend still in Saudi Arabia and the following is what I was told about the current status as of today. The legal status of the LDS church is some what “under the table”. Although the LDS church is a legal religion in Saudi Arabia it does not enjoy the same status as the Moslem faith. As pointed out by Curvette that to convert from the Moslem faith one can be punished by death. Following are some of the things the LDS faith is able to do: 1. Hold public meeting without supervision. 12 years ago the maximum number allowed at a meeting was 35, currently the number is unlimited. 2. Teach members of your own household or relatives that are not LDS and convert them to the LDS faith. This is assuming that they are not Moslem. This has also been relaxed recently and LDS are allowed to teach and convert foreign visitors that are not Moslem. 3. Collect tithing and other offerings and export the money from Saudi Arabia 4. Bring LDS leaders to Saudi Arabia for the sole purpose of meeting with other LDS members - for events like stake conference. 5. Perform Baptisms to those that request to be LDS (but are not Moslem) 6. Build an official stake center (building for only that purpose) on the east cost on property within the RAMCO (joint USA Saudi oil corporation) compound. There are 5 wards in Saudi Arabia. One in Juddah, one in Riyad and 3 on the east cost. In addition there are several branches - all on the east cost. 7. Give blessings to LDS members in Saudi hospitals. LDS are not allowed to do the following: 1. Pass out LDS publications or other printed material to Moslems 2. Answer questions that an Moslem ask about the LDS faith. This has been relaxed and LDS are allowed to answer questions that can be answered with a “Yes” or “No”. The standard answer is to say “I did not come to Saudi Arabia to answer any questions about my religion.” I do know from my Arabic friends that it is not uncommon for them to visit LDS web sites to get information but they are very scared about posting anything themselves. Also it is a violation of their faith to copy anything where G-d is spelled out - which is one reason I don’t. 3. Build any religious buildings on Saudi soil - the exception is the Stake Center on REMCO property. Some other points of interest: There is also a Stake in the United Arab Emirates with 12 unites (stakes and branches). These are listed in the global locator at the official LDS web site. UAE is much more liberal with the LDS legal status than Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s are very aware and curious about the LDS in particular that we do not use any statues, pictures or crosses as part of our worship services or displayed to identify where we worship (one reason that the LDS faith is legal). Our welfare and relief programs. That for our number of members we will have over 60,000 missionaries most of which are 19 years old. That we do not feel connected to the Catholic or Protestant Churches and that we believe in a living prophet. The LDS church leadership has agreed not to make active efforts to convert any Moslems world wide. The agreement is that if a Moslem request membership while then are not in a Moslem country (like Saudi Arabia) we can baptize them. Because the legal status is sort of under the table I cannot prove any of the above information but before you call me as a liar and condemn me to Hell based on your over active imagination and desire to shake thing up; I suggest you talk to an active LDS member that has been to Saudi Arabia within the last 10 years. The Traveler

There are really three problems here. First and most important is that the government of the USA did not declare war according to our law and constitution. All things like law and rights change when war has been legally declared. We should not expect our patriotic young men to be subjected to the horrors of combat without protecting them legally by declaring war. It is congress that hold the responsibility of what is war and should be held accountable not the military Second: The prisoners at Abu Ghraib were part of the repressive government of Saddam. Of course he treated them better – they were his buds. What do you expect them to say? It is not a matter of what Saddam did to them but what they were doing along with Saddam to their countrymen. How do these people treat their prisoners – some of whom are not military? Have their been any violations of international law? Does Abu Ghraib justify the beheadings? Third: The handling of prisoners should be understood in relationship to the dangers encountered in combat. In other words if there is a question of saving American lives (especially non-military) our armed forces are under obligation to risk their lives and disregard the life and dignity of the enemy. War is not a game nor is it nice by design. Churchill said that there are things worse than war and all the bad things that occur during war – and they all come from losing one. Anyone that is not willing to pick up a weapon and take a place in combat should not criticize those that do. These men should be tried before fellow solders not politicians looking better their position of power. The Traveler

1.I am concerned that foreign governments publish and distribute anything that encourages their citizens to come to our country and deliberately break our laws. 2.I am bewildered when someone calls someone else a bigot for expecting foreigners to have respect our laws. 3.I am aghast when someone suggests illegal aliens are good for us because we can and do exploit them illegally. 4.I think children are being taught poor values when they are given the impression that they do not have to compete in the market place value for value for what they do and what they are paid. I do not care if they are getting paid 10 cents an hour they are still better off working for almost nothing than they are watching 90% of what our broadcasters deliberately put on TV directly targeting our youth. 5.I do not think illegal aliens are the real problem or a good solution to be considered a major or first concern. I believe illegal aliens to be a trickle down problem of problems in our society that for the purpose of appearing “politically correct” we will not consider. 6.Finely I think that someone is a trader and does not deserve to be a citizen if they openly advocate or assist in the breaking or disrespect for the law. The Traveler

Do you believe that? This must be within the last week. Islam is the official religion of Saudi Arabia. All citizen must be Muslims. Conversion to another religion is punishable by death. This was told to me by a devout Muslim from Bahrain. Bahrain has close ties to Saudi Arabia and like Saudi Arabia is mostly Shiite and is ruled by Sunni. The Traveler

It is where people go that do not believe in "Gosh". :) The Traveler

What more can you tell us about that? I heard from the EQ Pres that the Church's contribution was, well - an extremely large number, a number that seemed to big to be believed. However if what you say is so then it may have been accurate. Do you have a link or source or know something else? There might be a link on the KNRS site. I heard Bob on his morning show. Sorry I could not be better help but the church does not seem anxious to publish numbers. I have talked to Aribric people that know the LDS church just from help donated to Aribic countries. I was told that because of LDS help that the LDS church is the only non Islamic religion legal in Sauda Arabia. Also do not give all the credit to church leadership. The amount was donated by the members as part of a special fast. The amount comes from the heart of the people. The Traveler

I believe it is a target. During my military service I spent some time with an Inteligence unit. I met an individual that was working in South America tracking various groups (Communiest) operating to penetrate various organizations. He told me he joined the LDS church because it was the only organization in South America the communiest could not penetrate. He had been sent (CIA) to investigate and was converted. He said that the members seemed to be able to sense when a new member did not belong. This is not to say that it could not happen - but I believe that keeping sinful secerets is extreamly difficult. I knew a couple of elders on my mission that just seemed to somehow be different. Both ended up being sent home and lost their membership. I believe the Chruch of Christ is both an actual organization and the power manifest by the Holy Ghost that is within our hearts given through the organization by the laying on of hands. Jesus said that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit and that a good tree will not bring corrupt fruit. I believe it is impossible for the Anti-Christ to operate among believers in Christ loyal to their covenants. The term "eyes that see" is a promise given by covenant to those that are loyal. I also believe loyality to covenant is the only defense against the Anti-Christ. The Traveler

The actual symbolism given is “the man of sin” and “son of perdition” that is sitting in the temple of G-d. I believe this symbolism is indicating that Satan or Lucifer is the man of sin and the son of perdition. The symbolism of sitting in the Temple of G-d is not a particular temple as it is to replace G-d. It also appears to me that the actual meaning of “Anti-Christ” is both Satan and those that choose to follow him.In the same manner that Christ has established his kingdom beginning with Adam, Satan has also established a parallel organization. The first leader of Satan’s organization was Cain who took the title “Master Mahan” that is the mirror parallel to the President, prophet or presiding High Priest. Master Mahan is the keeper of the “secret” where human life is waged for monetary profit and political power. We know a little how the secret works from the Book of Mormon. It operates in secret and assists its members to gain key positions in various religious organizations, businesses, and political parties – or anywhere else thought to be beneficial for accruing wealth and power. It is my personal belief that all members of the secret society can correctly be referred to as the Anti-Christ. Once the Anti-Christ gain control of an organization they may use the previous members of that organization to perform various Anti acts but not include them in their secret society. It is my understanding that as the time draws nearer for Christ to return that everyone that is not part of the Church of Christ will be under the control of the Anti-Christ. What I have attempted to do is give clues that will indicate the control the Anti-Christ have exercised in various places and times in history and our current place and time. The Traveler

An investigative reporter for a local SLC radio station (KNRS – Bob Launsburry) reported that the voluntary LDS contributions gathered during a fast effort (Sunday) by the LDS is the largest single private contributor and exceeds even that of all other countries except for the USA. He also announced that some of the money coming from the USA will be distributed by the LDS to avoid being lost in government agencies. The Traveler

We learn from scripture that in the last days preceding the second coming of the Christ there will be a great conflict between the followers of the Christ and the followers of the Anti-Christ. The purpose of this thread is to open a dialog on this forum on this subject for several reasons. First to determine if there are points upon which LDS and other Christians can agree concerning this matter and second to expand (if possible) individual understanding of this great conflict in order that as many as possible can will find ways to support and assist with all that are struggling and determined to be on the side of the Christ. It is my belief that the followers of the two conflicting parties in this war are not completely determined at this time (the dividing into one or the other group is currently in process). It is my wish, as much as possible, that those who would be with Christ may recognize their real allies and their accusers and work to become one with Christ and avoid being drawn in among the Anti-Christ. Also to be able to recognize the wolves in sheep clothing that are of the Anti-Christ masquerading as followers of the Christ that intend to confuse and mislead the followers of Christ. Personally I rely heavily on two elements of scripture for my understanding of the difference between the Christ and the Anti-Christ. First are the prototypes (types and shadows) from events past that are recorded in scripture. What has happened before, I believe it will happen again in a very similar if not identical manner (See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). Second are the prophesies in the scriptures that tell of thing that will come to pass – but since this is based on symbolism sometimes the interpretation can be deceiving. My understanding of the conflict between the Christ and the Anti-Christ. 1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it” 2. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim to be the legitimate authority of Christ and G-d. The Anti-Christ will “Sit in the temple of G-d showing himself that he is G-d”. This is very interesting to me because I believe that the Anti-Christ (Satan) will demand that he be acknowledged above the G-dhead (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and claim that he and he alone is the only single G-d and is the entire G-dhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all by himself. Think – over the last 2000 years, how has he acomplished this? 3. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim authority from the written scriptures. They will claim that the followers of Christ teach doctrines that are contrary to scripture. – Those for Christ will receive their authority from G-d. “We have Moses and the Prophets (ancient Anti’s reference to scripture) … Tell us plainly by what authority you come” Note that in Luke chapter 4; Satan (the Anti-Christ) uses scriptures in an effort to tempt Jesus. Note too, that those that followed the Anti-Christ claimed that what Jesus taught was contrary to the scriptures. Jesus said that everything he did was because the Father commanded him (not because of scripture). 4. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim history and tradition proves they are the legitimate religion. “We are the children of Abraham”. 5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8) 6. The followers of Christ will be more concerned with taking care of the poor and relief for the troubled (Remember the parable of the good Samaritan). The Anti-Christ will be more centered on doctrine and appearances or positions in social structure. 7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church. This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place. I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage. This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ. I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ. I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church. The Traveler

I have to agree the article adds very little to the origins of native americans. The fact that scandanavians or other small groups may have set foot in the americans over the centuries adds little to the mountain of evidence that the native american tribes are the decendants of asiatic migrants from north west asia and siberia. The mitochondrial DNA evidence points in this direction, with virtually no evidence linking any native american tribe to caucasians, much less middle eastern causcacians. Vitually no anthropologists who know the literature are claiming that there is any evidence that native americans are "jewish". If the truth of the book of mormon has to stand on the origin of native americans--the claim has to be reevaluated. A rather brash statement. The Kiah were blond hair and blue eyed and I know of no DNA study that linked them to "north west asia and siberia". In case you are wondering and I may have misspelled "Kiah", they were the first native Americans encuntered by the Europieans. The Traveler

I would think time is something that is really yours that you can give. It may not be the only thing. Thanks for your thought.The Traveler

The wise men from the east came to bring gifts. Some say that this is the beginning of giving gifts at Christmas. We give gifts to friends and family, I wondered if others think of giving something to Christ at this time of year.The Traveler

First off I agree that evil deeds can become a great stumbling block for others. However, keep in mind that Shakespear once wrote, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.”It is impossible to get through life without receiving something bad you do not deserve. It appears to me that when you focus on yourself it will amplify the effect any injustice will have. It also appears to me that the only way to get past injustice is a willingness to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of others. We should always be concerned for others. Realizing that we can have an negative impact on them but at the same time realizing that they do not have to have a negative impact on us. The Traveler

I have an old college friend that I hardly ever see anymore, but every year we exchange Christmas greetings. Over the years he has stayed with the idea that the only real gift is the gift of yourself. All others are cheep imitations. Every year at this time I make an entry in my journal concerning my gift to the Christ Child. How well my gift was given over the last year and what specific gift I plan for this year. Just thought I would ask what are some of you giving to the Christ Child this year? The Traveler

I posted that most judge sin by what sin does to others. The more damage it causes to others the worse the sin. I have tried to turn that around and focus on what sin does to the person committing sin rather than on others. Why, because others do not have to buy into the sin and make it theirs as well. They might find a way to keep your sin from destroying their life. This means that you get to decide what effect sin has with you. Strangely enough others can over come or become overcome by sin regardless of all your efforts for good or evil. When I would complain to my father about how hard something was he would just smile put his are around me and say "Let me in on a great secret. No matter how hard a task is there will always be some that find a way to get it done. No matter how easy a task, there will always be some that find a way to fail at it. The great secret is that it is always the same that succeed and always the same that fail. The real choice then is yours. Are you one that will succeed or one that will fail?" I have thought on this idea, who it is that succeeds and oversomes sin and who it is that fail and are over come by sin. It always goes back to one thing. You will succeed if you are willing to sacrifice your self - for G-d and others. You will fail if what you do is for your self. Therefore I believe the first step to evil is selfishness and the first step away from evil to good is diciplined self sacrifice. I believe the course can be completed to good or evil in just three simple steps. Based on what the first is what might the forum consider as the natural steps to follow? The Traveler

Thought I would add something just for fun. I have noticed that when it comes to sin (what is right vs what is wrong) people tend to draw the line so that they are on the right side of things. People in general, it seems to me, think that evil is someone else's problem and that "deep down" they are good and what they do is ok if you realize why they do it. For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger. Does anyone else see a problem with this kind of thinking? (Note to Strawberry - there is something symbolic here) The Traveler

Hi Friend: I have no doubt what-so-ever that you will find yourself in the exact heaven of which you have dreamed. One question - If you are doing things for Jesus, why would heaven be any different than here or do you invision heaven as something better?The Traveler

Throughout history there has been an influence (or corruption) of truth in the form of idolatry. Allow me to demonstrate. Much of the ancient influence of idolatry originated in Egypt. It is a tenet of idolatry to attempt to find excuses or ways around living according to covenant with G-d. One must understand that all society has had rules for good living, but the idolatrous want to make exceptions for themselves. In ancient Egypt a G-d by the name of Mot stood as the doorkeeper to heaven. His tool of determining who got into heaven was a scale. On the right side of the scale he would place your good deeds and your evil deeds on the left. If the scale tipped to the right you got into heaven. Otherwise you were sent somewhere else to be tormented and to suffer for your evil deeds. At the time of the apostles of Jesus the Hellenist had taken this concept to a new level. If you had plenty of good deeds then you could do some bad things without any repercussions. So the reason to do good deeds became so that you could do more bad things that were much more enjoyable. Paul taught that such “good” deeds were counted as evil but many literal Christians take Paul’s words out of context and teach all good deeds are evil. This is one way that idolatry has an effect. By placing false teaching the truth can be taken out of context and become misunderstood. However that is not what I want to present. The main point is that most people, including Christians that consider themselves devout believe if they have more good deeds than bad deeds they will get into heaven. This is a big problem because they also try to believe that people with even more good deed than them but are not Christian do not get into heaven. Others go to the other extreme – They think that as long as you believe in Jesus you get full access to heaven regardless of your deeds. There is another concept coming out of idolatry that has found ways into the hearts of Christians. This is the idolatrous concept of getting special privilege entrance into heaven. In ancient Egypt is was believe that regardless of whatever you have done if you will perform a ritual (such as a sacrifice – sometimes your first born) or a secret incantation that you could please a g-d and be forgiven of all your bad deeds and go to heaven. And heaven to them was a very me gratification place where all your pleasures and wants are awarded. To be honest I believe that many that profess to be Christian so despise Christian devotion and service that they will find a really Christian heaven a horrible place for them because they are so me centered that they do not understand Christianity is loving G-d and others more than one’s self. Let me put it this way – if you dream of going on vacation to a 5 star resort where you will be pampered and waited on hand and foot and you consider it not a vacation to go somewhere and end up having to clean up after others and serve them as a vacation in hell you may have a real shock in a Christian heaven. You may find the heaven of idolatry much more suitable. I find many statements in the debate over works and faith quite amusing. Let me put it this way. If your religion does not have the power to change you so that you love serving others by your deeds what makes you think you are a candidate for heaven? I believe goodness that comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ is an acquired taste. If you cannot learn to love and enjoy doing the covenantal deeds of a Christian – I don’t care what you think you profess you ain’t goin’a make it in Christian heaven, regardless of all G-d’s grace. The only way to learn to enjoy good Christian deeds so you can live in a Christian heaven is to learn to enjoy good Christian deeds before you get to Christian heaven. There is no other way. G-d’s grace is not magic and it isn’t going to change you into something you really do not want to be. G-d’s grace is for forgiving you of sin. It is his justice that rewards you with a heaven you have learned to love through the practice of your deeds. The Traveler

Good answer!!!The Traveler

One of the criticisms of Christians in general is that is that we all think we want to go to heaven but that we have no concept what heaven is. So my questions are as follows: 1. What do you think heaven is like? 2. What exactly do you plan on doing there? (Eternity is a long time how will you keep busy?) 3. What will citizens of heaven be like and who will they be? (Any comparisons to any social structures currently experienced on earth?) Feel free to add anything else you like or think worthy to acknowledge concerning heaven. The Traveler

Two questions: 1. What is the sign of Jonah? 2. Why did Nineveh repent without any resistance? I submit that the answer to both questions is someone coming back from the dead. Some think this is a made up answer – but I see no talking point or things to be considered. Especially from those that doubt or have question. I do not know what to answer since there is no talking point or no other idea being presented. Perhaps it is just me but I see no point to some posts, therefore I think it pointless to respond beyond this. The Traveler

Not much interest in sin???? A thought - the most deadly sin is that sin kept rather than repented. It is whatever is thought to be so insignificant that “surely G-d will not keep me out of heaven for _____”. I will let the reader fill in the blank. Often I am amazed at what some will buy into “potage” for their birth right in eternity. Blessed – you listed rejecting Christ after you have known him as a major sin. Some list “turning your back on G-d”. To be honest I cannot think of any sin that is not a manifestation of rejection of Christ and his atonement or turning your back on G-d. For the record I will list what I think is the most effective temptation and sin. It is the consideration of one’s self-importance. It is the “I want”, “I need”, “I deserve”, “I was born to _____” or “I was born to be _____”. It is the me, my rights, my money, my life, it is mine and I can do what I what with it. It is the desire to find one’s self, one’s place or one’s talents. The list can go on and on but I believe the first step toward sin, toward addiction, toward bondage, toward slavery, toward bitterness, toward hopelessness, toward destruction is the empirical desire to gratify one’s self and the desires of me. Likewise the first real step to liberation, freedom, enlightenment, joy, hopefulness is to overcome personal desires in a quest to assist or help another. It is the sacrifice of self for the betterment of others. The Traveler

My friend shanstress70: There are a couple of things that you are assuming that I am not sure are correct. One interesting concept about prayer is that many try to advise G-d and change what he is doing and has planned, thinking that by prayer they can to some degree impose their will on G-d’s. There are two things not understood in this kind of thinking and effort. The first has to do with an ancient and primitive concept of truth, reality and the things of G-d and that to be successful one must find a way to please a g-d – usually by performing an incantation or ritual (as in prayer). Let me give an example. Because the ancient lamps did not work well an ancient lamp lighter could not make sense of what was needed to make a lamp work and what caused it to fail. Therefore before attempting to light a lamp they would perform a ritual prayer invoking the good pleasure of the g-d that oversaw lamp lighting. Then they would try to light their lamp. If it did not work they would not connect that they might not have been doing something wrong in lighting the lamp but that they did not please the g-d of the lamp. Therefore they would continue to repeat the ritual prayer or enlist others to assist them in pleasing the lamp g-d. When the lamp finely lit they thought it was the g-d of the lamp and not their efforts that caused the lamp to light. This logic is flawed and relies on ignorance. We are dealing with chance and ignorance that many use to define a miracle. There is a second thing I wanted to address and this is the doctrine of “earnest prayer”. You might want to look up “earnest prayer in the LDS Bible dictionary. A lot of people do not quite understand what earnest means. This has the same concept as “earnest money” in a real estate contract but in this case it has to do with covenant. A covenant is similar to a contract and that is why the word “earnest prayer” can only apply to a person that is righteous and faithful to G-d by covenant. Without covenant there is no “earnest” application. Under the covenant there are three general covenant promises G-d makes to man. One promise is the protection from enemies or help time of great need. In essence the righteous are cashing in on “treasures” that have been laid up in heaven in order to assist in the “help or salvage” of others. Note the similarity between the terms “salvage” and “salvation”. Jesus indicated that to be healed and having sins forgiven is the same thing. In this sense the fasting and prayers of the “saints” avail much. The Traveler