Traveler

Just some thought about the Trinity. 1. The Trinity denies the Fall of man. Meaning that in the fall man was excommunicated from G-d the Father. 2. The Trinity denies that Jesus is the only mediator and intercessor for man with the Father. 3. The Trinity denies the Christ - that he is the G-d of the Old Testament that presented himself to man in the “Name” of the Father. Because he represents the Father in the name of the Father the Trinity doctrine denies that he can take upon himself the name of the Father - Therefore they claim man (Moses, Abraham and others) needs no mediator but that the G-d of the Old Testament was the Father. 4. The Trinity denies the scriptures in their most pure Hebrew from. In all cases of the ancient Hebrew where the scriptures speak of “one” G-d the Hebrew word “ehad” is used. “Ehad” has two meanings. The first is the counting meaning of one. If this is what is meant it means that in always that we can consider G-d we can only count one. Therefore G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost is three and for any Christian that believes in the G-dhead they know that the singular meaning of G-d is incorrect. The second meaning of “ehad” is the plural united meaning, such as when a man and women become one (ehad) flesh through marriage. If this meaning is used it implies that there are by definition multiple G-ds. A concept denied by the Trinity doctrine. Therefore in all cases for defining “ehad” G-d the Trinity doctrine denies any possibility presented in scripture. 5. No prophet ancient or Modern has ever endorsed the Trinity doctrine. In addition no ancient documents prior to the Creeds where the Trinity doctrine was invented has the doctrine been presented. Only by wild speculation of interpretations by man is the Trinity established. The Traveler

The goal of creation is motivated by love, compassion and service. There would be no purpose in a world if it was not an act of incredible service by its creator. Creating a world for fun or making yourself look or fell powerful is not at all what defines the true G-d that created our universe and that we should be striving to become like.The Traveler

My last daughter is going through today - which is the same day. About 30 family members are gathering to go with her on her first session and welcome her and her husband to be in the Celestial room. She has always been Daddy little girl and one of my best river guides. Talk about empty - our 7 bedroom home is left to just my wife and I.The Traveler

Thank you for your interest. It is my belief that the book of Isaiah is exactly the rerun of earth history that you may be interested in. Avraham Gileadi (a converted Jewish Rabbi) has interesting insight in this matter (a history of the beginning to the end - see Isaiah 46:10) he divides Isaiah as follows:I. Ruin and Rebirth - Chapters 1-5; 34-35 II. Rebellion and Compliance - Chapters 6-8; 36-40 III. Punishment and Deliverance - Chapters 9-12; 41:1 - 46:13 IV. Humiliation and Exaltation - Chapters 13-23; 46:13 - 47:15 V. Suffering and Salvation - Chapters 24-27; 48-54 VI. Disloyalty and Loyalty - Chapters 28-31; 55-59 VII Disinheritance and Inheritance - Chapters 32-33; 60-66 Note two things: First that there is a way outlined for the righteous and the wicked. Second is that the entire history is given twice. (See Genesis 41:32) The Traveler

Ancienty the name of G-d was altered to keep it sacred. I alter references as part of a personal covenant to keep his name sacred.The Traveler

Mankind cannot survive without bringing children into the world. I would point out there is a great difference between sacrifice and selfishness. One cannot pretend to be a “Christian” and not suffer little children. I am not saying all should be forced to suffer children - only real Christian believe it is necessary and understand how caring for children as a parent provides knowledge of our Father in Heaven. The Traveler

"1. From the Book of Enoch - One of the prime reasons for the destruction of Antediluvian Society is that societies acceptance and support of same sex marriage." Not sure that's a plain and precious truth. It may be so, but there's enough in the Bible to understand that God does not approve of same sex relationships of any kind. Sorry we may understand he does not approve that is a vast difference in destroying an entire society. I do not think that is in the Bible - nice try. "2. DSS "The Son of God" scroll - That the Son of G-d is a separate G-d from G-d the Father of Heaven." Hey, I'd actually like the reference for that. Thank you "3. Missing words in Samuel. Spiritual blindness is the result of disobedience to covenants." Im pretty darn sure you can find that elsewhere in the Bible. I know another reference that is close but it is not as straight forward. "4. Text changes in Isaiah - indicates man cannot see G-d the Father but can see the Son." Hey...uh....wouldn't that actually invalidate Joseph Smith's "First Vision"? Actually it does not because the Son acts as mediator to make it possible. "5. Testaments of the Patriarchs. The great Gentile prophet of the Last Days will be a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek." I'd like that reference too. Your welcome. "Can you name a doctrine or ordinance agreed by all claiming to be Christian that has no disputes on how it should be interpreted and understood?" Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself. Why did the Pilgrims come to America? Who drove the LDS from the United States - Moslems? There were no Christians that owned Slaves in America? When was the first law passed by Christians that would allow an non-Christian to not be put to death under the law for not being Christian? The Traveler

A response from a 5th generation LDS. I believe because of manifestations of the spirit concerning the fall - the G-d head - the atonement - and the resurrection. I have yet to find a more complete fath that embraces all truth and provides a vessel to hold all of it - including science and yet still inspires more devotion and service to G-d and our fellow man.The Traveler

As a side note to this discussion. It is my opinion that most of the weeping on judgement day will not be from the poor souls that did not receive any of G-d's grace - but a large number of those that did receive his grace when they find out all who received G-ds grace. The Traveler

It has already been stated - what is necessary depends of the blessing expected. One cannot expect any blessings when they are not willing to convenant with G-d. I see nothing in the scrptures to indicate that a part covenant is acceptable for justification. In Matt 5:48 it says to be "Perfect". Many do not understand that the ancient meaning of "Perfect" could be better understood as "Complete". Complete meant to seek G-d's will in all things. I submit it is the will of G-d that mankind enter into mariage that will bring children into the world (replinish human life). One last thought - One does not acomplish things that are great without great effort. The Traveler

Since you did not want any references but only the missing doctrine:1. From the Book of Enoch - One of the prime reasons for the destruction of Antediluvian Society is that societies acceptance and support of same sex marriage. 2. DSS "The Son of God" scroll - That the Son of G-d is a separate G-d from G-d the Father of Heaven. 3. Missing words in Samuel. Spiritual blindness is the result of disobedience to covenants. 4. Text changes in Isaiah - indicates man cannot see G-d the Father but can see the Son. 5. Testaments of the Patriarchs. The great Gentile prophet of the Last Days will be a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. This is by no means all from the plane and precious truths in missing Bible Scriptures I have provided more than the one you asked for. Sorry you are not more versed in the recent discovery of ancient manuscripts and that you stumble over the possibility that something important is missing. How else can you explain such large scale disagreement on the entire spectrum of Christian Doctrine. Let me ask one question in return. Can you name a doctrine or ordinance agreed by all claiming to be Christian that has no disputes on how it should be interpreted and understood? The Traveler

Few know or understand much of Baal and associated corruption or pollution of Baal worship on true faith. Especially as the worship of Baal relates to the “Last Days”. Anciently the worship of Baal lost more soles of the house of Israel than any other temptation I am aware of. There was this notion that one could be involved with the worship of Baal and still be a good Jew. Ever wonder why that notion persisted? It had to do with the manner and methods in which Baal was worshiped. The temple where the worship of Baal took place was actually a theater. Worshipers would come to the temple, pay an admission and find a seat to watch a dramatic presentation of the saga of Baal. The saga begins with his birth. Baal’s mother was a mortal woman and his father was “El” the Father of Heaven. Does this story sound a little familiar It should, this half man half g-d, son of the Father G-d appears in many ancient places. Hercules, Zoroaster, Beowulf, to name some legendary characters and Alexander the Great to name a historical character - and of course Jesus Christ. One of the reason I point this out for the reader is so that we can understand the concept of the son of g-d as a savior was not new with Jesus Christ - the idea is a very old one. Remember, the worship of Baal goes all the way back in the Bible to the Tower of Babylon and Nimrod. Funny how the Son of G-d as the Messiah has turned up missing from the Old Testament we have today and few even wonder why. Anyway let us press on. Baal is depicted as a really cool likeable guy. He is strong, good looking and especially popular with the girls. But there is one special girl in his life - Her name is Annath. And just if your interested she is one hot babe - the perfect match for Baal. Now back to our story. Baal is not a Satan worshiper, in fact he is the opposite. Satan in this story is Mot the g-d of the underworld. He has a friend, Yaman who is the g-d of the Sea. These two join together and form an unbeatable army of demons and monsters from the underworld and the Sea. Mot and Yaman are big time bad guys that are going to take over the world and rule with chaos. Note that the ancient meaning of chaos and the biblical perdition is very similar. Baal finds out about this plot and decides he is the only one that has a chance to stop Mot and Yaman - but he needs some help. Baal turns to his Father El, that tells Baal he must face Mot and Yaman without his Father but Baal is given a gift from his father. He is given thunder and lightning which he can use to kill from great distances. With thunder and lighting Baal also has control of the weather. Interesting that the son of g-d has control over weather. Baal goes off to confront Mot and Yaman as a surprise but he is betrayed by a trusted friend and is ambushed instead. A hard battle ensues and Baal is seriously wounded. Wonder why Peter thought there would be a fight when Jesus was taken? Sorry back to Baal - the weather goes out of control and Baal is left for dead. Annath finds Baal in the storm and realizes he is still alive. She takes him home and takes care of him through a long dark stormy night. During the night all mankind is gathered for one last battle, including old men, women and children. The next day they will fight to the last person which does not really matter because Mot and Yaman plan to kill all humans anyway. The next day a great battle takes place - mankind make a noble stand but are seriously outnumbered and outmatched. Finely man is surrounded and all is lost. But at that last moment a recovered Baal appears with his thunder and lighting and the tide of battle is turned with an awful display of violence against the bad guys. Mot and Yaman’s armies are destroyed and they escape with just their lives - banished forever to the Sea and underworld. With the battle over there is a great celebration and everyone gets drunk and there is a gigantic orgy. And of course Annath and Baal have their celebration as well. The whole thing is quite fun except for some R rated seens of violence and sex it is an otherwise exciting production. Oh I almost forgot for a small fee you could pick up some silver and gold action figures of Baal and Annath in the lobby on your way out to take home. Yup, the worship of Baal was quite popular in ancient times. But why was it such a problem to covenant Israel? Much of the problem has to do with improper interpretation of scripture. For example Exod. 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other g-ds before me”. Some think that the “before me” is a ordered statement meaning that G-d should always be first. But the Hebrew phrase “al panai” actually means before my face or in my presence. What it means is that is you come into the presents of G-d (or his spirit - being spiritually born again) you will not be allowed if you attempt to bring with you any other g-ds. Also the Hebrew word to serve (Exodus 20:5) means to spend time with or resources on or to set your heart upon. Once gold and silver is polluted by being formed into false g-ds it is an abomination that must be burned with fire (Deut. 7:25) Also note that anything that is polluted by this false worship of Baal must be destroyed (Deut 7:4-5). Now ask yourself this question - Why must the world be cleaned by burning in the “Last Days” before Savior can come the second time? Could it be that the world and the homes of some good Christians (LDS) will be filled with videos, pictures and magazines of a latter day Baal? Do you “serve” a false g-d of R or some PG rated pornography (Great and Abominable Church) that will prevent you from being in the presents of G-d? (See Deut 7:26) The Traveler

Nidk: I am LDS and I have respect for evolution and the Big Bang theory. I also understand that Science does not have all the answers. Such as why the Big Bang went off Late - there is far too much matter and energy in the universe to be contained - The Big Bang could have created a much smaller universe - and why is there no evidence of containment. BTW - What's up with the "Big Attractor"? Just dark matter and maybe dark energy? I just believe that G-d is not what cannot be explained. I think that he is our father is important to understand. You appear to have a good mind just don't fall over trying to miss the cracks in the sidewalk - There is so much more to see - if you are going to stumble because your mind is somewhere else stumble over kindness to your enemies. The Traveler

I assume any society that surrounds G-d in heaven is both enlightened and advanced. You disagree with this logic? - if so would you indicate why?I agree that the LDS concept of a pre-existence presents new questions that cannot be answered with old thinking. Perhaps you would share your opinion concerning Lucifer (Meaning one bringing Light) could turn to darkness and convince many to follow. I find no reference from scripture or anywhere else to imply that they did it because they were stupid. If they were not stupid - what intelligent objection could they have worth going to war with G-d? The Traveler

I do not think you are LDS so I am not sure you will understand the relationship between the "Great and Abomnimal Chruch" and "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5) .In my post I intended to show the correlation - Sorry I was not clear enough on that point for you. The Traveler

"Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures." Name one? - I will gladly name a few. 1. The full Book of Enoch - a part of which is quoted in the Book of Jude verses 14-16 2. The Dead Sea Scroll (4Q246) titled “The Son of God” 3. 49 Hebrew words missing between the last verse of Chapter 10 and the first verse of chapter 11 of 1 Samuel. 4. Text Changes in Isaiah 38:11 5. The Gentile prophet of the Last Days as described in the Testaments of the Patriarchs. "Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time." Yes there was a Catholic Church. It was founded by this dude from Nazareth.... Sorry I missed the scripture where Jesus ordained a “Pope”, or “Cardinals”. Apostles I can find but not the structure or organization of the Catholic Church as it appears today. "Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered." Source please? - Tom Newman - retired archeological chair Harvard University "We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD." Don't you mean Dead Sea Scrolls? - No I mean the Dead Sea Scriptures. Among the Scrolls that were discovered are scriptures - All of the Old Testament except for one book. Do you not consider the Old Testament Scripture? These documents are the most accurate text found to date - I believe they should be recognized as sacred. "There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public." Care to share an example? - Again there are 50 to name just a few 1.The Messiah of Heaven and Earth (4Q521) 2.The Messianic Leader (4Q285) 3. Servants of Darkness (4Q471) 4. The Tree of Evil (4Q458) 5. The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial (4Q390) "I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored." Let me see: Illumaniti, Trilateral Commission, Freemasonry....name your conspiracy. The Hellenist - Debates concerning Grace vs works. Peter the keeper of Heavens gate vs Mot and the scales of Mot. G-d is unknowable. Just to name a few ideas coming from the Hellenistic conspiracy. "If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate ““cleanly””." Oh, please do. - Later when I have some time. Perhaps you would not mind starting the thread by telling us what you know about Baal, who he was and his role in the scheme of things. The Traveler

Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures. Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time. Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered. We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD. There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public. I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored. If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate “cleanly”. The Traveler

A thought about the war in heaven. The big answer is why? How could Lucifer convince citizens of the most advanced and enlightened society to ever exist to engage in a war that could not be won? One might say he lied to them - How could they not know a lie with G-d there to help understand? I do not buy that. Those that rebelled had to have made a choice based on the true facts. Why would they take a stand against G-d - the most intelligent and powerful being that exist or could exist? The scriptures lead us to understand that the center of the controvosy of the war - the great rebellion was "Man". What about man would split heaven in a war? Some religious societies teach that Satan fought against G-d because G-d intended to save mankind from sin. How could Satan care if man was caught in sin or not and if man was caught in sin why would Satan car if man was somehow set free? Keep in mind that after Satan now concentrates all his efforts attempting to destroy man. Why? Why risk G-d's power to destroy man - man that the scriptures says is basically carnel and evil anyway? What in G-d's plan for man has Satan and ever one that follows him so envolved? What about man does Satan fear so much that he coutinues in his war? The Traveler

Jesus said the Sabbath was for man - not man for the Sabbath. In Hebrews chapter 4 there is an interesting correlation drawn between the Sabbath - the day of rest and the rest of the Lord or the resurrection. In essence we are to understand that the rest of the Sabbath is a shadow of our life in eternity. Therefore, if you want to spend your eternities with recreation like seeing movies - have at it on Sunday. On the other hand if there is something to be gained by spiritual sacrifices and spiritually serving others, consider serving in a calling both at church or at home on Sunday - I have not found better training than the devotions to G-d as a servant to children teaching a primary class (or other such things). Or spending time with my family visiting someone sick or grandparents or some other such thing. The Traveler

To help with understanding the War in Heaven - It is important to note that the conflict between good and evil on the earth is a continuation of the war in heaven. (See Ezekiel 28:11-19). One needs to understand that this conflict between good and evil as it is taking place on earth is a type and shadow of what took place in the heaven (not Eden) of G-d. (See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11) Though in Revelation we are to understand things that will take place in the final conflict between good and evil on earth by understanding what took place previously in heaven as good and evil came into conflict there. The Traveler

To begin the title itself offers interesting insight. Anciently the term “Great” meant large size or of majority numbers. The term great implies that such an institution is unrivaled or in other words the Great and Abominable Church is the church, religion, doctrine and ways of the world. The next part of the name is “Abominable”. Anciently this term had only one meaning - something that is used to replace the true and living G-d. This is no idle evil or simple misunderstanding of things but a deliberate replacement of G-d - his way of life including commandments and covenants with something else. Some indication of the Great and Abominable Church: 1. The G & A B makes war on anyone that commits to live as Jesus taught. (Rev 12:17) 2. Described as the great whore that sitteth upon many waters (Rev 17:1) - Besides the symbol of the women involved it also meant the people are the majority throughout the world and they cater to pleasures. 3. Has been around a long time - was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus as well as in our day. Also had the power to alter sacred scripture and keep everyone for many generations from obtaining the scriptures in their pure form. (1Nephi 13:32). Note that the reason for this corruption of scripture was to cause contention among would be believers and cause them to stumble over doctrine. Has it worked? 4. Has power to infiltrate any and all religious institutions that do not align themselves with the standards of the church of G-d and his saints. (1Nephi 14:10). This is a rather critical notion - Those that wish to take a stand against good moral people based on doctrine, do so at a terrible price. 5. Encourages and fosters the rejection of G-d and a moral family lifestyle. (D&C 88:94) Paul describes the society of the G & A C or those involved in it practices in the “Last Days” in a most interesting manner in 2 Timothy 3:1-8. Lets review some of the concepts - from verse 2 of the King James version “For men shall be lovers of their own selves,”. The original Greek can also be read as: “For men shall be lovers of their own kind”. Interesting alternate translation - don’t you think? Then from verse 3: “Without natural affection”. The Greek is quite clear that this refers to sexual perversions with the additional description of “incontinent” which means without restraint of reproductive urges by exercising such desires in “unnatural ways”. The word translated to fierce is in reference to wild or untamed animal (not enlightened human) behavior. Can there be a better description of pornography and those caught in its addictions? Then in verse 4 “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of G-d”. Paul hits on this theme so much one would think Paul could be talking about addictions to behavior not likely fostered in loving families with Christian values. In verse 5 Paul says something very astonishing - “Having a form of g-dliness; but denying the power thereof.” In other words there will be an effort to make the life style to be considered as social viable as a marriage prescribed by G-d. This will be done by asserting that G-d does not have the right to prescribe what is “right” and “wrong”. The Traveler

I was introduced to a homosexual when I was boy scout. The person pretending to be a national Scout leader.I was again intorduced when I served in the army. Though I was 17 I looked 13. I weighted about 115 lbs. I know by experience why some homosexuals want access to the boy scounts and the military. And I know why they should not have that access. I also know that not all homosexuals need to force others to endorce their behavior as something that society must consider the same as fathers and mothers commited in marriage. I think those that intend to inforce homosexuality through the force of law as somewhat dangerious to children - regardless of their orentation. I also do not see the logic is forcing children to accept homosexual behavior as bio-logacal. The Traveler

Do you consider condescending a good thing or a bad thing?Would you prefer that I not express my opinions? If I was more friendly would you consider that more or less condescending? Are you disapointed with my posts because I communicate too poorly or because I communicate all to well? The Traveler

LOL well that explains why I can't stand TV these days. I always like the shows when they are new, but after a few weeks they become so repetitive...I guess the ending and next moves before they happen...very boring. As to the intelligent finding something interesting in anything...well...I can't agree. After hearing the same thing over and over again....having nothing insightful or mind worthy....to find....it becomes boring...just like TV. I believe we can have a happy situation when the talks are geared to meet everyone where they are....and when they are given and received through the Spirit....then there isn't anything boring.....but if they are not given by the Spirit, they can be tedious and boring to the Spiritually hungry... Starsky: Very good response. Not just because I agree with your conclusions (because I don't) but because your response displays above average intelligence. Which causes me to reflect on my conclusions. I suspect that you will soon find most post on this forum (including mine) somewhat booring (repetative) and move on. Good luck with your journey. The Traveler

Cal I am not talking about good or bright students. I am talking about true genius, say of the level of Nikola Tesla. Since you teach physics you should have an idea who Nikola Tesla was? In your classes, how would you identify a Nikola Tesla that may have some disagreements with many teachers conclusions (including yours) and be vocal about it? How would you identify true genius that disagrees with you from a bright student (above average but not exceptional) that agrees with you? Is it possible that a Nikola Tesla would learn to keep his mouth shut in your class? As for TV you missed the point. TV is intended to be intertaining - in contrast to talks by GA's. I thought you would pick up that idea and expand on it. Since you are a teacher maybe you would like another shot at it. The Traveler