Ray

Okay. No problem. I'll be happy to oblige. Consider that a done deal for the future. And if you'll show me an instance of what I did in the past, I'll edit to your satisfaction. :)

... to someone who has never tasted salt, or salty things. :)How do I know that salt is really salty? I tried it. I tasted. It's salty. :) ...or in other words, once you know God has spoken to you, you will know it is God who has spoken... just as I know God has spoken to me. I asked. I heard. He's God. :)

Wow. I really like those thoughts from you, Rosie. You have a very nice way of saying things. :) It made me think of some science experiments, where something was said to really work, but those who had tried it hadn't tried it for long, or had not met all the conditions. For example: If I were to tell someone that water will freeze if they put it in the freezer, because I had done it and it worked, they might come back and say that it DOESN"T work, because it really didn't work for them./ Perhaps I didn't mention some parameters OR they didn't ask some questions which would help them to succeed in the experiment. The freezer must have power from a good power source. Proper power is essential for operation. The freezer must function when it has proper power. It needs all of the parts that it needs. The freezer must be set to the proper temperature, even when it has power and functions. The water must be placed in the freezer long enough. If not left long enough, it won't freeze. And in all of those factors, there are many other factors, to make water freeze in a freezer. Just imagine a child saying something won't work while thinking he did everything right, and when he finds out there is more to be done, he just does it, and it works, and he smiles. :)

Please then, do give me these "reasons" Why? What good what that do? How do you know reasons are true?God shows me a truth, I choose to believe Him, and that is the reason I know it. Would you know if God showed you something that's true? How would you know God if you saw Him? And btw, next time, if you try to be specific, I will give you another reason to know a truth. I am proof, Joshua. I'm alive and living proof. Do you know a better way to share your knowledge? I just know, Joshua. God has spoken to me. And once you hear Him you will also know Him. I have a mind just as you do, Joshua. Do you know how to use yours to know God? Heh, what would you learn if you could wake up? Only you are really you, as God is God. Just wait on God, Josh. Logic alone can be faulty. There can often be things you won't think of. But once you know God has assured you of truth, you will know what is true at that moment. And btw, try doing a search for the keyword "reasoning". There are many good threads on that topic. :)

You will see a lot better without those shades on, Josh. Or can you not look at the Light 'cause it's too bright. :)

Okay, here’s my answer, from personal experience. Before I met a member of the church I’m in right now, I hadn’t really heard too much about Mormons, and after learning from that member and what other members taught me, my family gave me gifts to help me learn. At that point I only knew the Book of Mormon was really true, because God had given me His true assurance, and I’d taken all the lessons, and I chose to be a member, and they told me to receive the Holy Ghost. Anyway, the first gift from all my family was the gift of their contentions about how the Mormon church could not be true, which really didn’t help me to learn much of what was true, so I still relied on God to teach the good stuff. And the second gift they gave me were some books about contentions with more reasons the Mormon church could not be true, which also didn’t help me to learn much of what was true, so I still relied on God to teach the good stuff. And all along the way I tried to find some good books to show me why Church leaders would be in the Church, ‘cause I figured they had heard the contentions I was hearing and I thought they could explain why they were members. And lo, and behold, I learned more about the truth than all I ever learned outside the Church. And I now know the Church has more knowledge of the truth than all who say the Church cannot be true. So you tell me: Was it good to hear contentions? What if I had never learned through faith from God? If all I ever heard was only all of those contentions, how would I have ever learned what is the truth? Can a person learn the truth without learning what is true??? Why would any want all that and not the good stuff??? Do you want to hear the lies, or do you want to hear the truth??? And who else, but only God, should we all listen to???

I gave you some. From Hugh Nibley, no less. What do you want, only knowledge from God?Oops, nevermind. You've answered that question. And I think you now know how to get it. :)

Are you trying to infer that my "knowing" came at the expense of ALL reasoning, Joshua?It wasn't, you know. Or if you don't know, it wasn't. My reasoning is inspired by God's assurances. I can give you many reasons to believe in many things, but it takes faith from God to know the truth. I think what you're referring to was what He called "vain repeitition", or repetition with no real purpose.And if you want really want God to give you His knowledge, it is not vain to keep asking Him. Good. Then get it. He's giving it FREE for the asking. And He'll give you as much as you really, really want. And He'll never will run out or diminish. :) Where does your real evidence come from, Joshua? From anyone other than God? How do you know what you know is what God now knows?... unless God has assured you it's true? I know of many, many books written long, long ago, but I don't put my faith in those books... unless God assures me those books tell the truth, and then all my faith comes from God. :)

Ray, I asked God several times, I heard nothing, I felt nothing. Josh And at the age of 18 you're ready to stop asking??? How much do you REALLY want to know Him???

Ray, I'm sorry to say I heard nothing, and therefore must depend on the evidence I have before me. Why??? Why must you depend on that evidence, and only that evidence, to assure you of what really is true??? Why can't you simply say "I don't know" until God helps you know what is true??? Why must you make your mind up right now before you have all of the truth (in one idea)??? Why do you ask us what we know is true, when God will tell you the truth too??? I really, I mean REALLY, don't get that. Only sometimes??? Why don't you want this ALL the time??? Why can't you ask God until God answers you, so you can then know what is true??? Don't give up yet. You're only 18. Do you want all the answers RIGHT NOW??? Good. That's a start. God is ready to tell you. He just expects you to really, I mean REALLY, want it NOW. Heh, you're confident with your evidence that you have for your faith, even though God has not told you what is true??? What makes you think you are and can be like Jesus, if you won't ask God for your answers??? It's time to wake up now, Joshua. :)

Yes, I want "evidence" that justifies your belief, but not so I "can dismiss the evidence as faulty of lacking" Because I want to know the truth. I got my knowledge from God, and I know that His knowledge is true, so if you want to know what God knows is true, then ask God to tell you the truth. He really told me, and He can really tell you. Or will you simply believe that He told me??? Heh, He has something more powerful than email, buddy boy. And He will personally send it to you. But you must first show you want to know Him, before He will tell you what's true. :)

(1) He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true Of course I want to know the truth. (2)and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth I believe God could tell me the truth. (3)with your mind open and ready to receive His answer. As I said before, I asked as honestly as I could with an open mind. Thanks Josh Then tell us what you think God told you, and we'll tell you what we think God told us, and if we find out that we have different thoughts, we can ask God what God thinks about that... and who we should believe...That's really the point of testing our faith... isn't it??? Who will you choose to believe???

Thanks....it's all so clear to me now...... Maybe if you told me why you "know" he is a true prophet? Thanks, God bless, Josh Didn't she say that she had gained that knowledge from God?Maybe you should ask God how He knows.

Those were some good ideas there, rosie. I try to focus my teachings on Faith, to help others know Who we should all worship, and once we know Him, we can learn what He wants, and that's where Repentance comes in. And yes, while learning can be fun, what's important is what we do with our knowledge, and if all of us do what we know our Lord wants, then we'll all be with Him in His kingdom. And basically, it's as simple as that. :)

So let me see if I understand, the only way to believe in Book of Mormon, is for God to "tell" you that its true, but He'll only tell you that its true, if you already believe it? Interesting.... Josh No. He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true... and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth, with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.Or in other words, if you already have your mind made up about something, and you don't have the right idea, God is not going to tell you, or give you His assurance, that your idea is the right idea, because it's not. And instead He will wait until you are ready to learn what He knows to be true. And btw, talking things out with Him, and going over the ideas you have in your mind as you talk with Him, while asking Him and waiting for Him to tell you the truth, is not the same as having your mind already made up... as long as you're open to receive His ideas, as a child wants to learn from his Father.

Heh, you can't do anything I won't forgive you for, Joshua, and I respect you for trying to learn what is true. But to know what is true you must ask God to help you, otherwise you'll only hear what others tell you. :)

Okay, I can agree with that idea. And when He does judge me, He'll judge how well I "tried", as shown by the "good works" I have done... or in other words, He'll judge my own faith, and my repentance from my sins, or by how well I "tried" to become like Him... and if I am like Him, He'll then say "Well done", and those who don't try will not hear that. And btw, as a point of fact, it is totally impossible to exercise faith and repentance if one does not really try.

His grace requires our repentance... otherwise He'd say something like:"Don't worry, I've got it covered. You can now go and do what you want to. The idea that I am to now be your Lord means you can now do what you want to." Can you find that idea in the scriptures??? Even if that is what mdb is saying, and I doubt that, it would still not be correct to say that God doesn't require our good works, like exercising faith and repentance.Or in other words, it isn't enough to say He's our Lord. We must really do what He tells us!!!

In response to your idea of finding Hugh Nibley’s knowledge to be LACKING:I already told you he wasn’t God, so of course he didn’t have ALL good knowledge, but he did have a lot of good knowledge to share, and I know that was given by God… the source of all good knowledge in the world whether the world comes to know that or not. In response to your idea that Hugh Nibley was GRASPING AT STRAWS: Should I phrase what you’re doing like that??? Hugh Nibley did have some good knowledge to share, although he did not know EVERYTHING, and due to his lack he made comments to show he lacked some good knowledge from God… and that’s what you do when you share what you think when you don’t get your knowledge from God. Sheesh. Cut the guy a little more slack. He died an old man and lived a full life while gaining the knowledge he had, and I know that he had gained some good knowledge from God. And I know 'cause God tells me it’s good. Heh, I thought you weren’t here to teach. I thought you wanted knowledge from us. I know more about us and our beliefs than you do, and we’re gaining our knowledge from God. Do you think you can add to all that?!?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8)Do you see the difference? The book of Mormon (2 Neph 25:23) puts a condition on grace where the Holy Bible says there is nothing of ourselves that we can do aside from the grace of God that will save us. For a man to say, "I did this or that and gained my salvation" after "all that I did," brings pride and boasting. We can do nothing - it is grace and grace alone. You still don't understand our (LDS) beliefs, mdb.And to put it in a nutshell, there was nothing and there is nothing and there never will be anything we can do to EARN God's grace. Period. It aint' never ever gonna happen. So, does that meant that we don't need to REPENT??? No. We need to repent from all of our sins before God will redeem us through grace... otherwise we'll only get justice for not accepting the grace that God offers to each of us. And btw, the idea that someone doesn't have enough time to REPENT is kinda silly, to me. How long would it take YOU to turn the other way if you knew you were going the wrong direction??? Heh, well, you could still ask God to bless us anyway. :)

I’m with you, Desire’. That idea of the Trinity doesn’t make sense to me either… and most others I know who believe that. They simply repeat that same idea without really understanding what it means. Or in other words, most of the people I have ever heard from who have that concept of the Trinity do not and cannot visualize that concept of God… and the only ones I know who can visualize God are those who have our (LDS) concept of God. BUT… as we say… other people can believe what they want to, because they have that right, just as we have that right. God bless the US of A.

Hi Josh,Thanks for being willing to try my first idea, about asking one very important question until you can get a true answer and learn everything you want to know about that topic before asking another question. At this point I'll assume this is the question you want answered the most out of any and all other questions you could possibly ask about "Mormonism", and I'll now follow up with my second idea, concerning HOW you can know what is true and WHO you can rely on to teach you. As for me, personally, I only rely upon God, but I also like to read some good books... or some books which I feel can point out the TRUTH, instead of what of AIN'T true, or ISN'T true. Anyway, now that you've shown that you really want to investigate Abraham, or more specifically, the Book of Abraham, I will recommend that you pick up a good book by Hugh Nibley, an LDS scholar who died a little while ago, and see what he says about that. The book is called "Abraham in Egypt", and you can buy it at the BYU bookstore, which you can find online in a google search. Or, if you prefer to save your money and not buy his book, you can also find some good information from him and some other good scholars at the FAIR website you've already found. And btw, I'm NOT recommending that you believe what he says as if his words came from God. I'm recommending this book because at least this way you'll hear from someone who was a good strong member of our Church, a member who many Presidents of the Church referred people to when they had an investigator who wanted a more "scholarly" approach than to simply refer them to God.

A little known fact... sorry I don't remember all the details.I once saw a program where the speaker was speaking about the subject of translating the Holy Bible, and he showed one of the pages from the first prints of the KJV translation to show that they expected a restoration... on one of the pages the page was summarized by a statement near the top of the page which stated that the scriptures on that page were about how the church would be restored in the latter days. And as I said, I don't remember exactly, but I think you can find it, if you look. :)

1. How/why did you become a believer of Mormonism? In response to the HOW: Step 1. I accepted some truths another church taught me which prepared me to learn even more. Step 2. I met a returned missionary, a member of this church, who taught me some more that she knew. Step 3. I asked God to assure me and help me really know if what she had taught me was true. In response to the WHY: God told me the truth, or assured me through Faith, so I did what I then knew was right. :) 2. What is your main attraction to your faith? I define faith as an assurance or the state of being sure of truth that can’t really be seen, and I’m mainly attracted to an assurance from God because I’m sure He’s really knows what is true. 3. What do you think that Evangelicals believe about Christianity? God/Jesus/Salvation/Bible) I know there’s a lot more in what they believe than what I can say in a few words, but suffice it to say that there’s a very big difference in what we believe to be true. For instance, God, to them, is only one being that somehow consists of 3 persons, and while we (LDS) know the somehow of that, we all don’t agree on that issue. 4. What do you think are the serious differences between Mormonism and Christianity? Why? In response to the WHAT: The nature of God; the nature of Man; who has authority from God. And our idea of God’s heaven being more than one kingdom, though we’ll still be one on some issues. In response to the WHY: We all lack some faith or an assurance from God of ALL that God knows to be true, and once we all know there are things we don’t know, maybe then we will ask Him what’s true. 5. Briefly, what are your views regarding: a)Highest Source/Authority (writings, leaders, etc), b)God, c)Jesus, d)Spirits, e)Humans, f)Salvation, g)Church/God's People, h)Future/Afterlife A: In my view, my highest source of authority is God and those who I know are one with God, and the way I can see who is really one with God is the way God assures me of truth. B: In my view, I’ll praise God forever for all God has helped me to do, and when I see God I’ll have grown to be like Him and know I am still trying too. C: Jesus and my Father are one, and they both help me see that is true, and I know when I see them they’ll both say “Well done”, or “What was I trying to do???” D: Spirits are what we have in us, and what will go on when we die, and though we can sense them we can’t really see them, unless God “somehow” opens our eyes. :) E: Each human is a child of our Father, either male or female in gender, and while some of us think this seems odd, we can know if we’re not a pretender. F: Salvation is the state of being saved, and infers we need saving from something, and if some do not know that they are, in fact, lost, then they don’t know where salvation could lead them. G: Church/God’s People is one organized group that knows God is really our Shepherd, and a Shepherd is someone who others will follow, and those that don’t follow aren’t His. H: Future/ Afterlife is a term for what happens when what happens is happening then, and tomorrow will happen even if not expected and it won’t really matter much when. 6. Do you now, or have you ever had any doubts about Mormonism? If so, what are those doubts, and why? I didn’t always know “Mormonism” was true, and then I didn’t doubt I didn’t know, and ever since I found out “Mormonism” is true, I’ve never had a doubt that I know. N/A. 7. Do you have assurance of salvation? Right now my answer is Yes. And I have this assurance knowing I will be saved as long as I “endure to the end”. Thank you so much for your time and thoughts on this! I'm truly appreciative for your help in giving me an unscripted look at the foundation in which you rest your faith! Blessings, Brett Heh, no problem, Brett. I now have this saved for other occasions like this one. It won't be long before someone else asks again.

Hi desire That's actually a faith-promoting rumor. Variants of that story have been told by many people and different churches for decades. Sorry. Whatcha so sorry about, Jason? Some rumors are nothing but truth... with lots of variance in all kinds of religions... for those who keep learning more truth. :)