Ray

She said the best thing she could have said, Desire'.It would've been ridiculous for her to keep trying to convince me that I should listen to her... or anyone other than God... to learn what is true.

The Portland Temple. And my "job" is in Portland. I commute from SW Washington. :)And btw, if you're going to suggest we meet somewhere, perhaps some alley behind some grocery store, I will refuse. I'm very "prudent" about giving my full name and address to someone over the internet... now that I have a wife to hide behind... err, I mean protect. Heh, OH THAT!!!I know what THAT is. I just didn't know it was called "Mormon punch". Thanks very much for enlightening me on that subject, Ms.Sabran. :)

Heh, I agree with what you are "thinking" Desire', even though I would use different "words", I was simply trying to point out that even then you never really lose your testimony... you simply exchanged one aspect of your testimony for something else that becomes or became your testimony.What you declare to be true will always be what is your testimony.

Nicole,Save yourself a lot of time. Stop trying to convince me that I should listen to you and what you are saying. Okay? And stop trying to convince me that I should listen to anyone else that you think I should listen to... other than God. Okay? I will only learn from God... from what God thinks. And I won't think what you're thinking unless I know it's what God thinks, and I can know what God thinks without knowing your thoughts. Do you understand me now? I know I don't need you, and I know you don't need me, we just need God to know what God knows is the truth. And btw, this goes for everyone else too... AK, Doc, Tommy, Serg, Shannon... and all the rest of you. I don't need you, and you don't need me, to be able to learn from God. Okay? Is that clear enough for you now? No matter what you say... you can talk til you're blue in the face... I will never think what you think unless I know it's what God thinks. And No, it's not enough for me to hear any or all of you tell me that what you're thinking is what God thinks. I will only accept what God tells me is true. Now, be gone... away with your foolish thoughts. You are only making yourself look very ridiculous. Let's talk about what WE have learned and HOW we can learn from God. :)

Heh, and I am very happy to share mine with you, Doc, but I do so with the knowledge that you’ll never know what I know unless you come to know what I know how I know it. But, anyway, when one of us says something like: “I have a testimony” or ”I lost my testimony” I’d say we’re thinking pretty much what you are thinking. We didn’t “lose” the testimony we had, we just “exchanged” or “rejected” one aspect of our testimony for something else we chose to think which is then our testimony, and no matter what we think I think we should always choose to think like God. You do know how to do that, don't you? Shall I say it once again? We can all know what God thinks by asking God. :) And btw, what God thinks will always be what God is thinking, and what God thought will always be what God thought, and what God will think will always be what God will think.

That is what I've always understood it to be. :) Dr. T Okay, but what does that mean, in your words???

Heh, I think I know what you mean. :)It helps me to remember one simple thought: No man can convert (transform or translate) any man to God... ... not even himself... ... it takes God.

To hopefully help clear up some confusion, "receiving a perfect knowledge of him (Jesus Christ)" doesn't refer to having a perfect knowledge of everything there is to know about Jesus Christ, but instead refers to having a truth, any truth, which Jesus Christ Himself fully possesses, and that truth is perfect in the sense that it is perfectly (or completly) true, as evidenced by a personal witness from God.But again, like always, you can believe who you want to believe.

I do. It's my calling. God wants me to care...to be a light...to be a sign post...to get people thinking the thoughts that God has for them. Heh, what an interesting answer, Tommy. I agree that all Christians should be lights, and sign posts, that point ourselves and others toward God, but I don't think my job is to get others to thinking that God has my thoughts to give them. I share what I know and I know what is true when God helps me to know what is true, but are you saying that I should get others to think that what I think is what they should think???... or that what I think is what God would teach them if they simply asked God what God thinks??? Heh, I hope not. Look at all of the problems that causes. Some saying, Lo here! and others, Lo here! and all thinking their thinking is God's, when we can know what God thinks by getting our thinking from God and those who we know God inspired. And regardless of others, whatever they think, we simply keep learning from God. Do you know a better way to be learning from God than to simply ask God what God thinks??? Heh, nah. I didn't think so. :) p.s. Lest you get confused about what I mean, AGAIN, I'll give you an example, AGAIN. I know that the Book of Mormon was truly inspired by God, and I know that because God told me it's true. I didn't just believe Joseph Smith, or anyone who was/is a member of the Church (other than God), or anyone in the Book who said that what they wrote was what God inspired them to write. And you can know too. Ask God. :)

Heh, you're funny, Doc. I didn't know that you were so funny. I almost took you seriously, but then I thought, No, I know that he knows how to read. Just give me some more time to "sense" your humor, and then maybe I'll laugh with you then. :)

I'm happy that you understand my intentions, Desire'. I want you to learn from God. And btw, LionHeart, what do you mean by "the Godhead"??? I don't see that word in the Bible, and it's not in our (LDS) canon of scriptures either. psst... and yes, I'm asking as if I don't know. I'd just like to see what you'll say.

Heh, why do you want to know what I do???Can I influence you to change what you do??? Really truly??? Is that true??? Or will you go and do what you think or really know that God wants you to go and do??? You don't have to share your answers to what I am asking you. You can always do what you want to do. :)

Hello Outshined,Welcome back. (I haven't said much to you personally lately). :) And btw, to help fill you in a little, Soulsearcher is a little upset with me right now because he thinks I have told him that what he knows to be true is really not true and that Satan is helping him to believe that what he believes is true when in fact it really is not true. And as I said, that is what he thinks I have said, or implied, regarding his personal beliefs. In fact, though... or dare I say it (yes), in truth... I have only said that Satan is very active in helping people to believe things that really are not true, while I have also been saying that we can all learn the truth from God if we really, and I mean really, do want to. Or in other words, I have never implied anything regarding his personal beliefs... but he really believes that I have... so I'm one of the ones he's a little bit miffed at and is speaking against in that post. Just some FYI, to let you know what's been happening. :)

Really??? Why is that??? Why is that confusing? Didn't I say what you just said in my other posts??? :nods head: Yes, I'm pretty sure that I did. So who can clear up her confusion??? Or how will she know what is true??? Should she rely on me or my words??? Should she rely on you and your words??? Is that what you're suggesting she do??? Why not just ask God to share what is true? You know He knows all truth, don't you??? There is no need for anyone to be confused about anything. You know that is true, don't you??? Be careful, Ray--you know how Bro. Dorsey gets when people confuse Dez! (Sorry, I couldn't resist! ) pffft. I'm trying to "remind" Desire' that she can learn from God. Who cares what others think about anything???

I'm happy to be of service to you, Soulsearcher.I'm here to remind you that you should love everyone!!!... not just those who are nice to you. And that you can only learn the truth from God... who cares what others think about anything!!! :)

Have you decided to stay after school, Doc? Okay. I'll help you out if I can. :) Okay, by using the thesaurus in ‘Word’, I’ve come up with some other words. I first changed the word “blasphemy” to “blaspheme”, and came up with “curse” and “swear”, and I then chose the word “swear” to find some other words, and these are the words that I found: vow, pledge, promise, give your word, avow, affirm, guarantee Is that enough to help you know what it means now??? Heh, just in case it isn’t, I’ll say that to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost means to affirm, either to yourself or someone else, [anything] which is against the Holy Ghost, or against what the Holy Ghost declares to be true... for instance, to speak in opposition to Him or what He knows is true, or to say what is true isn’t true. Do you know HOW to know who the Holy Ghost is, or what He declares to be true? Do you know HOW to know what He’ll tell you is true??? Do you know WHO you’d be listening to??? Good. Then ask God. Why ask ME for MY thoughts about anything??? Do you just mainly want to know ME, or God??? Why believe what ANYONE tells you is true??? And btw, it doesn't have to be "verbal". I know how He feels without Him saying a word. And I also know how to tell which thoughts are truly His when I see what is written in words.

Dr. T. - Ray, When you gave the example of Peter sinning against the Holy Ghost-can you give me an example please? I know he denied Jesus 3 times is that was you are talking about? Yes, that is the example that I was talking about, but Peter did not only deny Jesus. Our Father in heaven had sent the Holy Ghost to Peter and told him who Jesus really was, and Peter then accepted that but then later denied that truth when he said something like: “No, I wasn’t with Him, I don’t know Him” And we do know our Lord forgave him, because he truly repented from that sin. He no longer denied who Jesus really was, and he told everybody that he could. :) Dr. T. - "I've never read or heard about murder being "sin against the Holy Ghost." ApostleKnight: That's what Ray was saying… Yes, that is what I was saying. Thank you for getting that right. Murdering someone (intentionally murdering an innocent person, or in other words, murdering a person when there is no good reason to kill that person) is one way to sin against the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost is always there to tell that person something like: "No! That is WRONG! Don't do that!!!" And that is what I am still saying. ApostleKnight: I was saying that murdering someone else is NOT the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost for which there can be no forgiveness. I was agreeing with Nicole's copious quotes which explain… Heh, you think you agree with Nicole’s quotes??? Would you like me to share what I think about that??? Good. Thank you. (If not, I’m doing it anyway) … to become a son of perdition one must sin against the Holy Ghost, but before that is possible, one must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Elder Melvin J. Ballard explained that “unto the Holy Ghost has been given the right and the privilege of manifesting the truth unto men as no other power will. So that when he makes a man see and know a thing he knows it better than he shall ever know anything else; and to sin against that knowledge is to sin against the greatest light there is, and consequently commit the greatest sin there is.” (Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1932, pp. 499–500.) Does everyone hear what Elder Ballard is saying? Or in other words, Elder Ballard, an apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ, is saying that the Holy Ghost has been given the right and privilege of manifesting the truth unto men (all men) as no other power will, and that when the Holy Ghost makes a man see and know a thing, that man knows it (that truth) better than he shall ever know anything else; and to sin against that knowledge is to sin against the greatest light there is, and consequently commit the greatest sin there is. Or in other words, sinning against the Holy Ghost is to deny the knowledge He gives you, personally, and that when you deny that knowledge there is no way you can be forgiven…. unless of course you repent and accept that knowledge, when you then would not be denying it, or Him. Does anyone have a problem with that? Good. (And I really don’t care if you do) I’ll go on now with some other of her quotes. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith further explained why sin against the Holy Ghost is so serious: “The Spirit of God speaking to the spirit of man has power to impart truth with greater effect and understanding than the truth can be imparted by personal contact even with heavenly beings. Through the Holy Ghost the truth is woven into the very fibre and sinews of the body so that it cannot be forgotten.” (“The Sin against the Holy Ghost,” Instructor, Oct. 1935, p. 431.) Just another testimony about how it “feels” to receive a testimony from the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph Smith asked, concerning those who become sons of perdition, “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Teachings, p. 358.) Or in other words, as some examples of how it is when a man sins against the Holy Ghost, after a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, (example 1) he would have to say the sun doesn’t shine even though he can in fact see it, (example 2) he would have to deny Jesus Christ (who Jesus Christ truly is) when the heavens have been opened unto him to declare the truth of who Jesus Christ truly is, and (example 3) he would have to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it, and “from that time he begins to be an enemy (to the truth). This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Elder Spencer W. Kimball wrote: “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 123). I believe President Kimball was referring to the rank and file people in this world, or those who have become members of the Church in Church records of membership only without actually receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost… as they (and we) have been told to do. Of apostates who had committed the unpardonable sin, the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil—the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life—the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost.” (Teachings, p. 358.) Or in other words, when a person commits the unpardonable sin, the sin of sinning against knowledge that person has received through the power of the Holy Ghost, that person will do those things just mentioned, and if left unchecked or not repented of that person may continue to go down the wrong path and develop a lust for all that is evil... or he may just never accept what he was told by God. People do not come to such a state in a moment. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith described the path that some follow, which would cause them to hate God and his servants: “The change of heart does not come all at once, but is due to transgression in some form, which continues to lurk in the soul without repentance, until the Holy Ghost withdraws, and then that man is left to spiritual darkness. Sin begets sin, the darkness grows until the love of truth turns to hatred and the love of God is overcome by the wicked desire to destroy all that is just and true. In this way Christ is put to open shame, and blasphemy exalted.” (Instructor, Oct. 1935, p. 432.) Or in other words, a person doesn’t instantaneously become the most evil person in the world immediately after denying a testimony from the Holy Ghost, but that may eventually happen if that person who denied Him once continues to deny Him because they will never truly know, or accept, what is true. Such people have placed themselves outside the redemptive powers of Christ (see Hebrews 6:4–9; 10:26–29; Matthew 12:31–32). They cannot partake of His mercy because they cannot incline themselves to repent, having totally lost the Spirit of God. Their sin “is an offense so heinous that the sinner is unable to repent; and this is what makes his case hopeless. If he could repent, he could be forgiven; but being incapable of repentance, he cannot be reached by the pardoning power.” (Orson F. Whitney, Improvement Era, Mar. 1920, p. 413.) Incapable of repentance in the sense that that person just simply can’t do it, because he has already become so wicked that his love for wickedness overrides his desire to accept and acknowledge the truth which can lead to every good thing. And btw, I’ve seen people like this too. They actually laugh if you suggest they should repent. “In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125.) … and they don’t even want to repent. To them that idea is totally ridiculous. …Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated that “commission of the unpardonable sin consists in crucifying unto oneself the Son of God afresh and putting him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4–8; D. & C. 76:34–35.) To commit this unpardonable crime a man must receive the gospel, gain from the Holy Ghost by revelation the absolute knowledge of the divinity of Christ, and then deny ‘the new and everlasting covenant by which he was sanctified, calling it an unholy thing, and doing despite to the Spirit of grace.’ (Teachings, p. 128.) He thereby commits murder by assenting unto the Lord’s death, that is, having a perfect knowledge of the truth he comes out in open rebellion and places himself in a position wherein he would have crucified Christ knowing perfectly the while that he was the Son of God. Christ is thus crucified afresh and put to open shame. (D. & C. 132:27.)” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 816–17.) This is simply a rehash of what the others have said, and this time it is Elder McConkie who is giving his testimony. Concerning the degree to which such people become filled with the spirit of Satan, Elder Charles W. Penrose said: “Those who have followed [satan] so that they become imbued with his spirit, which is the spirit of destruction, in opposition to the spirit which brings life, are his. The spirit of murder enters their hearts; they are ready to put to death even the Son of God, if His existence in life comes in their way.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1911, p. 51.) This is simply another rehash of what the others have said, and this time it is Elder Penrose who is giving his testimony. The scriptures sometimes use the phrase “shedding innocent blood” in reference to the actions of those in this condition. President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that the shedding of innocent blood is not confined to taking lives of the innocent, but is also included in seeking to destroy the word of God and putting Christ to open shame. Those who have known the truth and then fight against the authorized servants of Jesus Christ also fight against Him, and thus are guilty of His blood. “Shedding innocent blood is spoken of in the scriptures as consenting to the death of Jesus Christ and putting him to open shame.” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:68.) This quote, along with being another rehash of what the others have said, with this time it being President Joseph Fielding Smith who is giving his testimony, includes some thoughts which can help us all to understand that murdering innocent people is not the only way a person can sin against the Holy Ghost, because a person can also sin against the Holy Ghost by seeking to destroy the word of God (which declares what God knows to be true) and putting Christ (and all that He stands for) to an open shame (in that they know the truth but deny it anyway because they cannot stand what is true). Okay. Class is over. I just heard the bell ring. Please go home and study these words. You will be tested at some point in your life. And I know HOW to know ALL things that are true, and I know I have told all of you. :)

hay soul You are Good enough dont let anyone tell you are Not!! Except for God, of course. Right, Nicole? We should all be better, the best we can be, and to know how to improve, we ask God. And we should listen to ALL people when we know God inspires them to share what we know is true. :)

Wrong. I have said that murdering an innocent person is one form, or one way, to sin against the Holy Ghost. I did not say that is the only way to commit that sin, because that is not what I know to be true. Yes, I do get that, AK. You simply did not get me. I agree with that, almost. I just would not call him a murderer. And yes, I know he murdered, but a murderer implies more. At least to me. But that's just my view, a technicality. Heh, I don't think so. And yes I do know He was innocent in a way that we're not. But "innocent blood" to me simply refers to someone who didn't, or who doesn't deserve to die... in a particular situation in which they have not committed any offense... an offense that would justify the taking of another life... when there is no "good" reason to kill them. Yes, and she tried very well. I often think women have some form of the priesthood. Some know a lot more than some men. :)

Very good work, Nicole. I appreciate all your efforts to share that. I would like to add one more thought to what you said, though. It always helps me to put my thoughts in my own words. :) Anyone can deny the Holy Ghost (or the testimony the Holy Ghost can give them) and then after denying, Repent, but those who do NOT and NEVER do repent are those who will NOT be forgiven. Or in other words, just like Peter, who, after denying the testimony of the Holy Ghost who was sent by our Father to bear witness of the truth, and who then chose to truly repent after he denied what he knew to be true through the power of the Holy Ghost, we can also choose to repent after denying the Holy Ghost... but if we don't repent we won't be forgiven. And yes, I know that's as clear as a muddle puddle, but the truth is really in there somewhere.

If you're thinking while praying, God will hear you.And if you ask God to help you, God will. God can help you anytime you want to know what is true, So if you really want to hear God, be still. :)

You will get different answers from different people regarding what the "Trinity" is... which, btw, is a word that is NOT written in the Bible or any of our official (LDS) scriptures.And what we (LDS) believe and testify of as truth is in regards to the following facts: There is really and truly only one God in existence who can truly be referred to as God. There are 3 persons who are God, and each of those persons is a separate, distinct, individual "person" We (all people) can become one with God, through one person who is known as Jesus Christ And again, I'm NOT using the word "God" to refer to our Father in heaven, this time. I'm using the word "God" to refer to the ULTIMATE of ALL beings there truly are in existence. I hope you now hear what I'm saying. And btw, yes, there is more. There's a LOT more we can learn about God. And the best way to learn about God is from God, and from those whom God sends to teach all of us.

You're still very young, Desire'. There's more depth to our (LDS) teachings than you think. You can simply use the scriptures, and our (LDS) Topical Guide, to see that our Lord is also God... not the same person we usually refer to as our Father, but God... the one and only God in true existence. So far I think I follow and my understanding would say "one God". Now this part, is making me think that you are referring to man in "god embryo form" - because IIRC you believe that of course mankind has the potential to become godlike, therefore God; but because its more of a nature (from human to divine) than a type of entity, everyone who has this nature are "one God". Am I close? Yes, you are very, very close. :)

I think you meant "and hold them accountable." In any case, it is written in the Scriptures that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, murder is forgivable. It is also written that if you hate your brother you are a murderer because if you break any part of the law you become a law-breaker. Therefore, if you believe a murderer cannot be forgiven his sins, then neither can the one who hates his brother, unless you show partiality toward the sinner based on the severity of the offense, and we know God does not show favortism. I can see how you could think I should have not have said not. And I could have phrased it that way too. The point I tried to make is that our Lord holds a person accountable (or will not NOT hold a person accountable) if he/she murders an innocent person, as I defined those terms. And btw, I believe murder, as I defined it, IS a sin against the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost would assure a person, and has assured every person, that they're about to commit a very serious sin. It's not like: "Oh really??? You mean I wasn't supposed to do that to that person??? Well why didn't you tell me before, God??? I had no clue how You felt." Heh, nuh uh. It ain't gonna fly, my friend. :)

There are 3 who truly are one, Desire', so whether it sounds like the trinity, or something else, the fact remains there are 3 who are one... and according to Them, all 3 who are one, we can be one with them too. We have more in common than some think. :)