Ray

Heh, yes, they are definitely out there. God knows everything about everything there is to know. :)And once we know God we can know all that God knows. Kinda neat how it works that way, huh! Thank you, Doc. I'm glad you weren't offended by what I was trying to share with you. :)

Yes, I see what you are saying, Serg, but I do not agree with all of your thoughts. But you can now think whatever you want to think. I really don't care what you think. And I really don't care if you don't want to know what I think, I'm going to share a bit with you anyway. Here are your thoughts of some of Joseph Smith's thoughts which you think were inspired by God: Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should teach each other words of wisdom? Yes. I know God really did... Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should seek wisdom from the best books available to us? Yes. I know God really did... Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should seek learning by study and faith? Yes. I know God really did... Now, Did God say, as you are now telling us, that the "best books"are not scripture, but HUMAN books? No... ... and I really don't care what you think.

No, Doc. Here are my comments of your comments of my comments, to try to help you know what I think: I was trying to say there are things we really need to know right now, and some other things we don't need to know right now. After reading what you said I got the impression that you think there is a clear line between what is essential and "non-essential" forever, and that is really not what I meant. ... a nonessential for right now, or for when studying with some "Mormons".The only essential thing I need to know, and that others need to know, is God (which can ONLY be done through Faith) Or in other words, I believe that the only thing I (I won't speak for all "Mormons") should be trying to teach others (especially others who are not "Mormon") is God and how to know God... and from there they can ask God what God knows. Exactly. Everything but God and how to know God and all that God knows is just fluff...... but it can be fun to know what other people think. :)

Thank you, Serg.I think you got my point. All we need to know everything is God. :)

It is absolutely and totally impossible for ANYONE to be personally offensive to me… … and that includes YOU, Nicole… And if I know you are trying I’ll know you are being silly and that you just don’t know any better. :)

Moonfire,As you study with "Mormons", please keep one simple thought in mind. There are some issues which are essential for you (and all other people) to know, and then there are some other issues which really don't matter at this point in time because if your ideas are wrong on those issues at this point in time you can learn the truth later after you understand all of the really essential issues. For instance, learning all of the details concerning what happened before we were born on Earth is one of those other issues which is really not essential for you or anyone else to understand right now. There is truth concerning those things, but they are not essential. They don't lead you to how to know the truth. And to whittle all of the essential issues down to as few words as possible, I'd say that what matters is really knowing God... and to get to that point you need to understand the principle of Faith (which concerns how to know God and what God knows is true). Or in other words, to sum up all that I am trying to say to you in this post, I am saying that when you study with the "Mormons", please don't focus on all of these other issues which are really not important for you (or anyone else) to undertand right now, and instead please focus on what you (and all other people) really need to know right now, which is God and how to know God. And then once you understand that issue, and it's importance, you can simply ask God what God thinks about anything that you really want to know about. Other than God and how to really know Him, everything else is just fluff... ... but it can be fun to hear what others think. :)

What kind of a prayer are you asking for exactly? That God will help him get that job?What if God has other plans for him, even better than you can imagine, in some way that you may not think is better for him? Or what if God doesn't want to interfere with the agency of the people who can decide to hire your husband? Are you prepared for whatever God wants to happen? I always pray that God's will will be done, so if you want me to pray that God's will will happen in the life of your husband, then no problem. Consider it done. :)

Yes, it was necessary for Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, or in other words, to gain knowledge of good and evil, but they could have done so without acting against God's command to NOT eat that fruit. As I said before, they could have just asked God for some of that fruit later, at another time, instead of eating some without His approval... even if it would have meant they would had to die by eating that fruit as God had told them would happen if they ate it. To coin a thought from Nephi, God does not give us a commandment to His children unless He prepares a way for them to accomplish what He commands them, so I know there was a way they could have known how to fulfill God's commandments without breaking another one of God's commandments. So, if you were to ask me what I believe happened, I would say that Adam and Eve took some of that fruit because they wanted some right then, after Satan enticed them by helping them to see that the fruit was indeed desirable... which means they followed Satan's influence and did what they wanted instead of just asking God for some of that fruit. There's a little more detail involved, of course, because Eve was the first one to eat it and she had her own reasons for wanting it then, and Adam did what he did for some other reasons of his own... but neither one of them asked God for some of that fruit... or at least He didn't give them His approval. And as I also said before, it still worked out in the end, and God had already prepared a way for His children to be redeemed after they chose to do something against His will. I simply disagree with how they did it, and how it happened, because I know there really was a better way.

Heh, you people can give me a hard time as much as you want. I really don't care what you think. :) Oh, and Tommy, you neglected to mention what YOU did, and what YOU said. I find all of this attention very flattering, though ... but flattery gets you nowhere with me... ... because... ... say it with me now... ... I really don't care what you think... ... whether you speak in my tongue or any other tongue... ... I really don't care what you think... ... unless I know you are speaking for God... ... and I will know that by an assurance from God. (edited to add some more details about what I know about how to know what God thinks or says to me)

I only read part of Snow's post containing some thoughts from somebody else, and I'll read some more on this topic later, but so far I don't see where God is acknowledged as the Father of Adam and Eve. If I keep reading will I see that acknowledgement??? If not, I will not agree. I do know that Adam and Eve truly lived... in Eden... in a garden. They lived. They lived, and then died, and their spirits kept on living. And they have already been resurrected. Follow-up: I really liked your post, ApostleKnight, and I now know which book to get next. :) And btw, I'm not saying I agree with your thinking, but it could possibly be what God thinks.

Are you asking me if I have ever heard in LDS circles an idea concerning how there is evil because of humanity not because of God? Yes, Doc. I have, but not in exactly those words. God didn't create evil, God gave us agency, and when we do something against God it is evil.

I'm suddenly having this overwhelming sensation of deja vu. Is it just me?

No. And you know what else? It's intentional.Faith is my most favorite principle of the gospel. If YOU have a problem with that, deal with it.

Based on that "piece" I think I agree with that concept. :)

No. What did you mean by this: He them on earth KNOWING that they couldn't reproduce unless they broke the commandment. ??? In my opinion, they could have just asked God how they were supposed to fulfill that commandment... ... and then maybe God would have said: ... okay, NOW you can have some of that fruit over there. They did have that option, you know.

Please elaborate. I don't know what you are referring to.

Ray: I hope you now see my point. prisonchaplain: But, Ray, it's not 'your' point. You repeated my point, added an example, and claimed it for yourself. You plagiarist, you! Heh, yeah, right. I'm onto you now, buddy boy. And btw, if you don't know, I was kidding just then... and I'm thinking that you were kidding too. :) Ray: Bull pucky. I don't need to hear anything that YOU have said, or will say, or do say, about ANYTHING. prisonchaplain: Ray, God has gifted some as teachers, some as bishops...we do well to listen to them. Surely, you listen to the prophets? Or, do you simply mean that you don't need to hear from me, personally? My point is that I am not going to believe that someone is speaking for God just because they say so... even if they really believe they really are. But if God tells me that someone is speaking for Him, or sharing the same thoughts that God would... on that particular occassion, under that particular set of circumstances... then it's the same.... that person is speaking or acting or representing God... though not necessarily with any or all of His authority. Can you hear what I'm saying to you now??? Ray: I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think... prisonchaplain: IM ALWAYS HO, the reason people (mostly LDS) get upset with Ray, and accuse you of having clumsy communication skills, is that you frequently assert (truthfully, me thinks) that you do not need to hear what others are saying... God gave you two ears for a reason, hermano. Yes... to hear with. What's YOUR point... that I should not only hear you when you speak but that I should also ACCEPT what you tell me is true... when you say that you are speaking for God??? Get a grip, prisonchaplain. I wasn't born yesterday. I am not going to "just believe" what YOU tell me. Ray: If I accepted what YOU say... what YOU say is true, then yes, that could really be devastating. I would just be following YOU doing what YOU think is right, then maybe finding out later you were wrong. Heh, no thank you. I'll learn the truth for myself by asking God. prisonchaplain: Ray, it's not about me. It's about your unwillingness to hear what God may say to you through other people. On your mark, get ready, set, GO!!! Say something directly from God for me now, Tommy. I will hear what you're saying... even while only using my eyes... and I know how to know what is true. Ray: Yes, God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands to follow HIM and those who we know HE has authorized. prisonchaplain: So, what you are really saying is not that you don't listen to others, just that you don't listen to others who are not LDS, is that it? If so, I'd simply remind you that God can even speak through a donkey, so why would you think God might not grant you insight through discourse with 'Gentiles?' No... I never said he couldn't Tommy. I've heard from God through a LOT of other people, and sometimes I have heard Him through you... but right now I know some things that you just don't know, and I know how to know they are true. Do you??? Then do it!!! What are you waiting for???

Good question Des. I wonder if God "WANTED" that or just allowed it to happen for a purpose. Just a quick point, in case you haven't heard this before:God always allows us to do ANYTHING... or at least anything we can do, somehow. It's what we (LDS) refer to as "Agency". Some people will only learn things the hard way. And btw, if God had wanted Adam and Eve to take that fruit, at that particular time when they took it, I believe God would not have told them to not take it... but that doesn't mean He wouldn't have let them have it later. Heh, it's kinda like a piece of good candy, or some other fruit, you try to keep from your kids. Just because you say No at one time doesn't mean you won't ever them them have any later. :)

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to? I can agree with the idea that God would have eventually wanted Adam and Eve to take the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... but until then they should have just done what He said. It's all going to work out in the end, though. God was already prepared for what happened. Does God know His kids, or what?!?!! :)

Hi chiKin, I'd like to respond to your comments. I could have condensed your post just a little more to get at the points that really struck me, but I wanted to quote enough of your post for others to understand how you feel. I'll now address your comments one by one, to give you a little more depth in my answers. I'm trying to get my beliefs straight right now and I get kinda angry when people start focusing on other stuff besides our Savior and what He did for us. My first response is to want to ask... Why? Why does it make you angry when people start discussing other issues... issues other than our Savior and what He did for us... issues which perhaps could help us know more about what our Savior wants from us and why He did what He did... issues like the importance of taking care of ourselves... both our spirits and our bodies... and the role and importance of clothing... and other things which can show that we are sacred.... both our spirits and our bodies... and how we can know that we are very sacred by knowing our Savior and all He did. I am not going to base my converting out of the LDS church on YOUR opinions. Heh, good. Thank you. I now have a little more respect for your opinion. IF i do decide that it isn't the church for me, it will be based solely on my ability to believe the teachings. ALL of the teachings. I think you didn't write what you were thinking... or did you really mean what you said??? I don't think I can go to a church every week when I feel like the beliefs and teachings are constantly contradicting themselves. Yeah, me neither. But sometimes what you think is a real contradiction is something you really don't know. I'm not asking for proof, I just want to FEEL it is true. In the 14 years I've been a member, I don't think I've ever had that certainty. And every year that passes, the confusion grows. As someone who has been a member of the Church for 14 years to this day, you should have now heard from many, many people telling you HOW they know what is true. So if you really want to know what is true, I think you now know what to do. When I asked you that question, I simply wanted to know why you put appearance up there as one of your major points. That's all I wanted to know. Sorry for what appears to be a lapse in my memory, but when did I make that comment? Can you quote it for me? Can you tell me where to find it? I really don't know what you're referring to. I do think appearance is important, but I don't recall saying it was "major". It's certainly NOT up there with some MORE important points, but I do believe it is very important. I'm sure you believe in God and Jesus, if you didn't, you probably wouldn't be a member of that church. Yes, I believe in God and Jesus Christ. And I believed before I joined this Church. I wasn't judging you, I was questioning your comments. HUGE difference. I think if you had been through everything I have, you would have a hard time with the church also.... Again, which comments are you referring to. I'd be a little more willing to explain what I meant after seeing what you're saying that I said.

Is this really possible? Can I (or you) really truly believe we've obtained truth from God--have a personal, spiritual testimony to that truth, and yet be wrong? Heh, YES!!! Hello!!! Is there anybody out there who is listening? Do you need me to give you an example to show you that this really happens every day? Okay. Try this example, AGAIN. I say the Book of Mormon is true... that the words written on each page of the Book of Mormon were and are true and inspired by God... some words were written in the present as Joseph Smith translated some ancient writings... and some words were written by men long, long ago, like Nephi and Moroni, for instance. And I say that I know the Book of Mormon is true by continually receiving assurances from God... concerning each and every idea expressed through words in that book as I read the book and ask God if they're true. Does everyone understand what I'm saying? Good. Okay then. Now, on the other hand, some other people claim that God has told them that the Book of Mormon is NOT true... that none of the words that are written in the Book of Mormon were truly inspired by God or written by men (like Nephi and Mormoni and others) long, long ago... and that instead it's some kind of a hoax that was devised and continues to be perpetuated by Satan and those gullible enough to follow him (Satan). Does everyone understand what I just said? Good. Okay then. I hope you now see my point. Bull pucky. I don't need to hear anything that YOU have said, or will say, or do say, about ANYTHING. I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think... enough to accept what you are saying is true. Yes. And my noggin tells me that what you say is what YOU think. When I want to know truth, I'll ask God. If I accepted what YOU say... what YOU say is true, then yes, that could really be devastating. I would just be following YOU doing what YOU think is right, then maybe finding out later you were wrong. Heh, no thank you. I'll learn the truth for myself by asking God. Yes, God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands to follow HIM and those who we know HE has authorized. And I know when God authorizes other people to act for Him by receiving His assurance of those truths... like I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God by God assuring me that he was... and still is.

Heh, well then go get 'em. It's not too late. You're not dead yet, you know. You do know that, don't you, Serg? And the movies are still out there for you to get if you want to get them.

If you guys [Tommy, Doc (presumably), and Serg] are saying that there may only be one among us who has the real truth, and the other ones just think they do, even though all of us may really believe and might even say we know we do, then, why of course, I totally agree with what you guys are saying. And FYI, I don't have to prove to any of you, or to anyone else, which one I am. The only one I really care to please is nobody else but God. :)

If that is true... if the Holy Ghost has never assured you of any truth... then yes, it would be impossible for you to deny the Holy Ghost or what the Holy Ghost told you to be true. Yes, that would be one way Nephi could have denied the Holy Ghost, or what the Holy Ghost assured him (Nephi) was true. But another way would have been for the Holy Ghost to assure Nephi that [something.. a truth] was true and then Nephi just denied that... by saying or thinking that what the Holy Ghost assured him about wasn't true. If Nephi's brothers never had an assurance from the Holy Ghost to assure them of what the Holy Ghost knew to be true, then it also would have been impossible for them (Nephi's brothers) to have denied Him (the Holy Ghost)... they would have never felt the power of the truth through a testimony from the Holy Ghost. Heh, good for you. :)And btw, I didn't think it was a very good movie. I like the book much, much better. But I would recommend that you see the "Work and the Glory" movies. :)

Ok. I think am understanding this. Lets see. Here is a truth. When I talk on the phone my cat sometimes thinks I am talking to him and starts to meow non stop. The way you can find out is to call me up and hear for yourself. Seven out of ten times that cat will come over and start to meow until I tell him to shut up, and even then he sometimes won't. So calling and hearing this cat will be proof. I'm sorry, Moonfire. I don't agree... I don't believe you have shared the whole truth. Please don't be offended, I'm not trying to be rude. I simply don't agree with your conclusion. I might be able to come to the point of agreeing with you on the idea that when you talk on the phone your cat starts to meow, and meows "a lot" while you are on the phone, but I don't think I'd say your cat begins to meow "non-stop". Is he still meowing now? If not, he has stopped. If I saw him not meowing, I'd know that. I still might not be able to agree that "your cat thinks you are talking to him", though. Maybe he's just meowing because he wants your attention, not because he thinks you're talking to him. Do you really claim to know how your cat thinks??? I could also go on about some of your other comments that I do not agree with right now, but I think you get my point. I do not agree with all you said in your post because I don't know what you said is the truth... the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth. "like the phone"... as in a means of communication with God, you mean? Yes, I can agree with that. But the Holy Ghost is also God... not just a connection to God... the Holy Ghost is a person who is God... ... and I'm not referring to our Father in heaven or our Lord Jesus Christ, who are God, but not the Holy Ghost. Heh, and don't get too frustrated when you see you don't know everything... there's a whole LOT to learn about God... and the best way to learn about God is to learn from God and from those God inspires to teach truths. :) No offense was taken. Actually I am a lot less confused now then I was when I started this post. I do understand what you mean. I think So the truth I thought I had wasn't actually solid truth. It was the truth as I saw it. So my knowledge/truth/logic was flawed by my own views and prejudices. So, when the Holy Ghost tells you the truth then it will be from him or God, well since they act as one and are the same..... Ok, let me forget about the godhead for right now, lol. Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt. Ok, maybe I am still a little confused but I am getting a much clearer picture. If you want to challange any of my other statements, please do. I like to discuss and I don't take things personally when I am wrong or when I don't completely understand something. I haven't met a human yet that is completely right all the time, not even myself. This is very important for me to understand. So if I don't get it, just knock me in the head a few times until I get it You're doing fine, Moonfire. And I'm impressed by what I'm learning about YOU. :) And in fact, I'm so impressed that I'm 99% sure that you will get this. Change this... Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt... to this... <strike>Anyways</strike> the truth <is and always> will be absolute, and when you know it <the truth> through <the power of> the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it <the truth> is the truth, not <false> knowledge <or false information or a false idea> that could be <and often is or has been> misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is <a> fact <and a truth> and can be proven <or known> without a doubt... <once you know how truth feels as God helps you know how truth feels through the power you can feel from the Holy Ghost.> ... and then you'll know a little more about the truth, as well as the power of God. :)