Ray

Hi Josh, How you doin’? How are you coping under all of this scrutiny? I’m happy to see you’re still here. And in the interest of trying to help us be one, I have some thoughts which have helped me know God. First, while investigating a topic, (like the (LDS) religion or “Mormonism”, for instance), it usually helps to come up with one important question regarding a topic and then keep asking that question until one can arrive at the point where one can truthfully say one has gained the knowledge of all truth desired in regards to that question. Otherwise one could get stuck and stay stuck on smaller questions without really understanding the topic. Or in other words, instead of asking 6 questions on a topic one is interested in learning more about, in my experience it usually works out better when one tries to come up with only one question… a question which when answered truthfully would help one to know more about what one truly desires to know than one could have known by simply sharing what they already think or asking many less important questions, with the understanding that one can always ask more questions after the first question gets answered truthfully to one’s personal satisfaction. For example… Joseph Smith and many other people claiming to be prophets of God said, and keep saying, that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our (LDS) religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.” (see the Book of Mormon, Introduction)… So, if that is true, as they say it is true, then “Mormonism” stands or falls on that book. So, with that knowledge, one could propose the idea that one very important question on this topic is: Was <and is> the Book of Mormon really true? And examples of smaller questions regarding this topic would include: How can the Book of Mormon be true when the Book of Mormon mentions horses and archaelogists haven’t found any bones from horses that supposedly lived back then? Or How can Joseph Smith really have been a true prophet of God when a lot of people said and now continue to say a lot of bad things about him? Or If the Book of Mormon was and is really true then why doesn’t the Bible plainly say that book would be discovered and translated in our day? Or Why doesn’t the Book of Mormon mention everything else we now know about that is taught in the LDS religion today? Or Get my point??? And btw, I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be good for one to know the true answers to the smaller questions, as long as one does someday ask the big questions, otherwise one might get stuck and stay stuck on smaller questions without really understanding the topic. Secondly, (or what could be First, if one chooses) It also helps to consider some thoughts about HOW all of us can know what is true and WHO we can rely on to tell us… can we rely on teachings from people who claim to be prophets of God… or can God personally give us faith (or His assurance)? Or how can we respond when others try to tell us what we already know is not true? Or in other words… Who is the true vine who can share the truth with all of us, and who are the true prophets (or messengers) He sends? And HOW can one know if God sends some true messengers to share what God knows to be true? And yes, everybody, I’m back now. If one doesn’t like it, one can run for the hills! I’ll never stop sharing what I know to be true, nor HOW we can all know all truth. :)

Boink. Last post. Goodbye everyone. And yes I know I have said that before already. (a long goodbye) :)

Sometimes it can help to get "information" from people other than God, if you're willing to accept what others tell you, but to know who speaks the truth I think we all should ask only God, otherwise we may find out we do not know the truth. Would you believe someone if they said God told them something without asking God to know if it was true? How else can you know if people tell you what is true without asking God to give you His assurance? And btw, you can give your answer to God. I am really not that interested in what you believe. In the end it will be between only you and God anyway. :)

Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship? I suppose you could pray and ask God for a testimony or confirmation of what your best guess is. However, the Scriptures tell us about Jesus' life on earth. They ought to be our first source of information about such questions. Do you really disagree??? Ray would absolutely disagree. He believes that his prime and ultimately only source of information is God himself. Ray holds that each and everything he knows, he knows because God has revealed it to him. That includes knowing his name and the answer to the question What is 2 + 2. So for Ray, reading the Bible is almost an afterthougt as his knowledge comes from God, not some book. Go figure. What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books. So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books. And if that still doesn't help you to really see what I am saying, try these words: The "book" of Matthew in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Matthew said was true. And the "book" of Mark in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Mark said was true. And the "book" of Luke in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Luke said was true. And the "book" of John in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what John said was true. And I know God inspired them so they could know what was true by God telling me they told the truth. Do you want to know what else I know??? Ask God. I'm learning all that is true from Him. :)

Who has said and who keeps saying I keep saying the same old thing… without changing and improving my words? Or who has seen me keep saying the same old thing without choosing to use some other words? Or who here thinks I am only saying and that all I have ever said is… …without adding a nuance here, and another nuance there, to change the way I say what I say… to help other people understand what I know… and how I feel… to try to avoid confusion… and let people know I’m not attacking them… for no other reason than to improve understanding while I continue to try to share what I know??? Huh??? Who cannot see me now??? Who cannot see what they truly could see if they stopped criticizing ME??? Does anyone need me to share how I know we could all have our eyes opened up??? Does anyone not know that I truly can know how to know I really know what is true??? I am not attacking you now. I have never attacked anyone here. I share what I know about how we can know by learning ALL that we know from only God. And if none of y’all now want to learn anything from ME… …that’s good. I think we are making some progress. Now if we can all learn that we should only learn from God and those who we know He has inspired, then all of us will learn what I already know about how we should learn from only God. :) My intent is to love everyone no matter what they believe and I know that intent is just right. And ONE of the ways that I show my love to everyone is by teaching what I know to be right. And if people disagree and have a problem with me because I share what I know to be right, then that is their problem and I’ll still love them anyway, while I continue to try to teach them what is right. :) Ray, I love ya but you are incorrigible, Incorrigible = habitual, persistent, confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, incurable, hopeless., and irredeemable Nope. in·cor·ri·gi·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-kôr-j-bl, -kr-) adj. Incapable of being corrected or reformed: an incorrigible criminal. Firmly rooted; ineradicable: incorrigible faults. Difficult or impossible to control or manage: an incorrigible, spoiled child. n. One that cannot be corrected or reformed. As found from dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=incorrigible Still love ya. Sorry if I burst your bubble, Strawberry, but I can be corrected when I know I am wrong. And the "one" who helps me know when I'm wrong and when I'm right is nobody other than God. And the power that I feel is the power that I know comes from God through my Savior, Jesus Christ. :) And He can reform everyone, even me, irregardless of what YOU have to say. And yes I still love you anyway.

Heh, reevaluate what? How you communicate! Okay. I can hear you saying there is something wrong with how I communicate with others, but nobody is saying what is wrong with how I communicate, so who is it that really has the problem? Sheesh. I can read what you have written, but you did not say anything, other than the idea that there is something wrong with how I communicate and that I should listen to other people when they say that I should listen to what they say. Say something!!! So I can't ask others to say what they think, even when they won't tell me what they have in mind, so I'll guess what you and others want is for me to go away. Did I get it??? Are you and others still NOT going to tell me? This is the last time I will try to communicate my thoughts with my words. I will let you answer that question after reading my final comment. Tell me the truths in the Book of Mormon and in the Church. And if you don't know any yet how do you suppose you will ever find out??? Hint: Not from me or other LDS, who you might think I think are the smart "ones", but from God, and only God, who knows everything!!! And if you are still here talking to us then please tell me why you are still here. I will say nothing more important than Who is The Teacher

Heh, reevaluate what?How important I believe it is to share HOW we can all know the truth? Is there another message you feel is more important to others? How is anyone going to know the truth about anything without knowing that??? And btw, I've lost count of how many times I have said what I have said in other words, but if you need me to say it again, just let me know. :) Some people may want more meaty things but they still need to have some good pure milk. Going too fast or talking too much can plug up their system or make them feel sick. And more truths are worth too much to throw to the wolves.

Yes, it is possible for each of us to be saved, and if each of us does what our Lord expects us to do we all "shall" be saved, individually, but we must individually know and do what our Lord expects from us. Who wrote 2 Corinthians, and who was he writing to? Or who is the "us" who was given the spirit which (the writer said) was a guarantee? The preceding quote contains scripture references where people who wrote what they wrote were writing to the people they were writing to, and I see no reason for me to believe anyone was writing to me.But I can still learn from what they have written, even while I know they weren't writing to me, because the words they wrote have some truths in them which apply to everyone...it's good historical information... but I need to know what God has said and will continue to say to ME.

When others know some truths that I have not learned, I am happy to learn what they know, but I will accept what they know only after learning it is the truth... and for that I will only ask God.Are you people expecting me to believe what you say simply because you are saying it's the truth??? What if I've learned some things you don't know? How are you going to know that I know what is really the truth??? Is this a one way street? Or can't you get some ideas from me too? I can't help how other people choose to take what I say, and I've tried to tell you all I'm NOT offensive. But you can take that, or you can leave that. I have shared what I know is the truth.And btw, if everyone agrees with me, why can't you all say with me now... "I agree!!!" "We can only know the truth by receiving God's assurance!!!" "So what have you learned by receiving God's assurance, Ray, or PC, or AK?" ...with the understanding that we'll all be asking God to know if what we are hearing is true, with nobody getting offended if we choose not to believe what we hear because nobody is really expecting anyone else to believe what others are saying without getting an assurance from God... which everyone knows is THE ONLY WAY to really know the truth??? Huh? What doesn't that happen? What don't I hear those thoughts from everyone? Why are some people picking on me as if I am saying something to them which is strange??? OH, WOW!!! Nevermind. I know now. They simply haven't asked to learn from God yet, which is the only way they will know that they really know how to know the truth. Thank you, God. And thank you all. I know the truth about this now. And I know you can know by receiving an assurance from God. :)

Ray, you "don't get" what other people are sharing with you. Yes I do. Or at least I get some of it. I just don't get this point you are trying to make now. What do I do to chase others away? Can't you answer that question? You seem to know the answer. But I'm not getting it because you're not explaining it. I do hear you talking, but I don't hear you saying anything about this point I am asking you about. Why don't you love me? What "bad" thing am I doing? I'm sharing what I have learned from God. What have I said that has no substance? If that's true just back that point up. If you don't understand what I've been trying to tell you, I'll be happy to try to explain it again. Okay, Maureen. If you didn't understand me, you only had to let me know that. I can tell you what I know, and I can explain what I know, but to know I speak the truth, ask God. If God has told me, God can also tell others. Wouldn't it help for other people to know that? I can't make others believe me, and I can't make them hear me, but I can share what and how I know. And how does me saying I and others can learn from God equate to some non-information??? Please try to explain that one to me. The information I'm presenting is that we can learn from God. If you don't know, that is information. Even that is saying something. And I hope you are getting my message. :)

You speak of assurance, yet you don't even have the assurance of salvation. Yes I do. God has told me I do. Do you suggest that I believe you or God? You got that part right. I'll now give you 1000 points. Keep adding those up and then redeem them. :) Well what do you know. Well how about that. That's what my salvation is too. :) In which of the scriptures was God or anyone else speaking specifically to YOU saying YOU can be sure YOU are saved??? I agree you can learn things from the people who wrote scriptures, but I know of none written specifically to YOU. And you cannot be saved by knowing other people are saved. You need a personal assurance from God to YOU. Yep. Very good. I'll now give you 2000 more points. :) And as I have given, I can also take away. I hope you'll make good use of your points.

Water is #1 and lemonade is a very close second. (fresh home made preferably, but Tropicana has sugar free in a can) Then it's: 3. 7-UP (or a lemon-lime soda) 4. Ginger Ale 5. Sasparilla (or a cherry soda) 6. Orange soda 7. Grape soda 8. Dr. Pepper (diet and caffeine free Cherry Vanilla) 9. Dr. Pepper (diet and caffeine free Berries & Cream) 10. Dr. Pepper (diet and caffeine free) ... and the list goes on and on.

Everyone is from God. That's the answer to that question. Do I get a prize now or something?

Hello Dr. T. I know you like to learn from other people, but would you answer your opening post? How do you feel when you feel close to God? And how is that different than at other times? Thank you so much. (And you can pretend that was asked by "The Closer" )

I certainly cannot say with absolute certainty that Jesus did not organize Christian worship. However, the gospel accounts are the best accounts we have, and they offer no indication that he did. That is your opinion. Not mine. (edit: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible") And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

And what is it exactly that I really don't get? You don't like hearing what I know, or you don't like hearing it's from God? Or you don't like hearing we should ask God to assure us so we can know we know the truth? Go ahead and spell it out for me. Don't you know what you know? Has the cat got your tongue or something? Yep. Ray is like no other LDS person I know. I don't get out much and I know others like me. Maybe you should know others like me? :)

If those were on the list I'd pick them before Dr. Pepper, and Ginger Ale would then be my first choice. :)

I think we should ALL ask if what we know is true, and I think the "one" to ask is our true God. Some believe we (LDS) are wrong, but we (LDS) believe we know the truth... ... and everyone can know the truth with God's assurance.

Of the ones you mention I like Dr. Pepper the best. Diet and caffeine free preferably. But I don't drink soda pop as much as I used to, and instead I drink a lot more lemonade... it's my usual, along with water, at home and at restaurants. And at home I make it with Splenda. :)

Hi MBASS, First of all, I thought your post was very, very good and filled with a lot of good thoughts. And I was NOT thinking any negative thoughts from what you said, even though I could see you've had some bad experiences, because your post was centered on sharing your good thoughts about the good things you have experienced, even though you had to go through some bad experiences to learn them. Second of all, please try to keep in mind both now and forever that I never intend to personally attack anyone in particular, even when I am speaking against evil. And I hope you and others will come to understand that about me. I NEVER attack ANYONE personally, including those who are my enemies, and Satan. And last of all, what I meant was that I don't like hearing bad thoughts. The thoughts I like hearing are the good thoughts people have, and the good things they've experienced in their lives. And when some people mention some bad things they've experienced, if they overcame them, and share those thoughts, I LOVE hearing it. :)

Scott,What you are saying to me sounds, to me, like what I imagine other people said or thought about after hearing from prophets who also tried to tell them what they knew. "You are making me feel bad!" "The truth to us is obvious... people like you should go away!!!" "And since you keep "sharing" your "truth" with all of us, I'll show you how bad we really feel." But, Scott, I am not saying anything to chase anybody away, and I don't see why you would think that. Haven't I often said that I hope we become "one", and that all of us should be learning from God? And yes, I know I've shared what I know to be the truth, but I haven't asked anyone to believe me. I simply share what I know as I learn it from God, and I say that all of us should ask God. Can you show me the harm in me saying that? How does that chase you or others away? Is there anything in my message asking you to go away, as if I'm trying to chase you away from me? From whom are you getting your ideas about me? What have I said to chase anyone away? I really don't expect you to simply believe me. I wouldn't either if I were you. I only believe me because I know what I know is what God has really told me. And if you are offended by the idea that I share what God has really told me, who would you rather hear me tell you I have learned from? Would you rather learn from scientists, or from God? Or do you really want to hear what I think is the truth, without having any knowledge from God? The way you feel about me really puzzles me.

I, for one, love to hear good thoughts from other people. But I don't like hearing any evil thoughts, or what I usually refer to as negative thoughts from people... because I don't think they really help anybody... except maybe to point out what is bad... but if I don't know what good things to do about bad things to make the bad things better, a bad thought does nothing to help me know better... unless I hear some good thoughts from other people. Does anyone really know any better way to be without feeling they are closer to God?

I cannot see why we all can't agree we can all discover the truth from God. If God tells the truth wouldn't we all become "one" by learning all truth from Him? Is there any other way we can really learn the truth without learning what is true from God? Saying "God told me so" should end discussion with other people, but we can continue to learn from God. I have done that, ApostleKnight. Are you trying to imply that I haven't? Haven't you heard me explain what I know to be true, as I explained my own knowledge to other people?But when someone wants to know how I came to learn what I know, I simply tell them I am learning from God, because when it comes right down to it, my faith comes from God, as He helps to assure me with His reasoning. Not from books alone, and not from words alone, as other people try to assure me of what they know. What value do books have as they simply share thoughts that have come as men translated their own thoughts into writing? And what value do words have when they simply share thoughts that have come as men spoke what they thought? Is there any other way we can really learn the truth without gaining our own assurances from God? Of what value is the Book of Mormon if you don't know it's from men who wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit? And how else can you know it was inspired by God if God doesn't tell you that it was? All of us can only share our own testimony with other people, and then leave it up to them to ask God. There is no other way for others to know what God tells us unless God tells other people what He knows. And btw, Scott, I only share what I know. If you really want to fight about it you can fight it out with God. I can do nothing to make you believe that I know the truth. And I would never use violence to try.

I very rarely get angry. But I do get frustrated. I am so misunderstood.

I'll look forward to seeing how you will do that... respecting others who have beliefs which are wrong.I know it can be done, and I've tried hard to do it, but I think I can relate to Rodney Dangerfield. And yes I do know I'm not dead, yet. :)