Ray

The authority that governs in the kingdom of God is the actual authority of God, Doc. Just ponder that thought for a minute, or a moment. The actual authority of God. Oh yeah, and we get it from God and from those God has authorized... like when God laid His hands on the apostles during His ministry, and they later laid their hands on others. Some people have no sense of what we're really talking about here... the actual authority of God.

I agree with what you just said regarding my comment, Tommy, (see my revision) but personally, I don't think I am being offensive when I say or suggest that someone cannot see something they simply cannot see... even if someone gets personally offended by my thought or suggestion that they can't see something they believe they truly can see perfectly. And personally, when I was told that I needed to wear glasses, I saw an eye doctor as soon as I could... and lo and behold I saw the world as all new not knowing what I couldn't see!!! Heh, and btw, I later accepted lasik surgery procedures, and now I don't need to wear glasses.

How would you define being “offensive”?According to the thesaurus I use, “offensive” means to be insulting, unpleasant, nasty, distasteful, disgusting, harsh, and hateful… … and antonymns are nice, kind, pleasant, and polite… among other and even many good words. And while some people are often offended by any hint at all they are “wrong”, I think there’s a nice way to simply share truth and point out that someone is “off”. And btw, I've used the word “off” to suggest that some cannot see the Light which shares ALL of the truth… not intending to be offensive to those who can’t see that what they’re doing (or saying) is wrong.

The simple answer is that those 3 Nephites (and the apostle John who also now lives as a translated being) didn’t and still don’t have ALL the authority from God which is necessary to regulate His kingdom on Earth. But that doesn’t mean those 4 people, or any other people, don’t know God, or don’t worship God, and it also doesn’t mean they don’t have some authority from God to do some good works on Earth. They simply don’t have all the authority from God which is necessary to regulate His kingdom on Earth.

We believe the "true" church of Christ was not on this Earth, until our Lord restored it.And yes, Tommy, I agree with that point... many didn't even know His spirit was not among them.

Before I answer that question, please tell me what you think it means for a church, or churches, to be apostate.Or in other words, do you think a church of Christ can be apostate and still be "true" to our Lord?

Heh, no, that's not quite what I was saying, and I'll be happy to explain what I meant. :)According to the thesaurus I use (and these things are very handy, btw), apostasy is another word for: abandonment, backsliding, defection, desertion, disloyalty, disobedience, estrangement, faithlessness, falling away, forsaking, heresy, infidelity, rebellion, rejection, secession, sedition, separation, treachery, and withdrawl… among several and even many other words. And what we (LDS) believe happened to people in the past who rejected some or all of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants is known as “apostasy” or “falling away” from some or all of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants. But that doesn’t mean that ALL people who apostasized (aka apostates) rejected ALL they were taught about God from God and His authorized servants… because SOME people still believed SOME, and taught other people to believe SOME, of the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants… they just believed NOT ALL, and taught other people to believe NOT ALL, the truths they were taught by God and His authorized servants. And btw, apostasy still happens right now in these days by those who reject some or all of the truths being taught by God and His authorized servants… even among people who accept SOME of the truths but not ALL of the truths being taught by God and His authorized servants. Or in other words, the fact that some "Christians" think they are teaching "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" while using quotes from God and His authorized servants doesn't mean they are teaching what is really the truth or that they have authority from God to teach others.

Hi Doc,The fact that LDS believe there was an apostasy, which you called a “total apostasy” and which is correct in a certain context, doesn’t mean we believe ALL truths that were known at one time became lost or corrupted later. We believe some of the truth has ALWAYS been taught but became lost or corrupted later by people who taught but did not know God… like preachers in churches who only teach some of the truth and not ALL that they teach is the truth. And btw, those 3 Nephites have been around in the flesh on this Earth since the day they were born in ancient America, and they’re only around now because our Lord honored their desire to minister to others on Earth. But the fact that they’re around doesn’t mean we can see them, when they do not want us to see them… just like there are angels we can’t see right now when they do not want us to see them. We're not as alone as some think.

Yes they were. They just didn't speak with grace as they said some of the things that they said... and that is why a lot of people didn't always like to hear what they said.And btw, Snow doesn't always speak with grace either when he says some of the things that he says, but a lot of people like to hear what he says because he makes people smile, or laugh. :)

I can now see more of what you know now, ApostleKnight. I hope we become one with our Lord. :) And btw, the voice of the Spirit can't be heard by some of us because some of us do not know our true Lord. ... "He came into His own and His own received Him not" is a reference to one coming of our Lord.

I can hear what you are saying, Traveler, and you're making some very good points, but I think He always has His power and glory because HE ALWAYS IS WHO HE IS... and we can feel His power and glory when we truly "see" Him or "hear" His words... and if we LOVE who He is we'll feel joy. :)And btw, those who don't or can't see Him or hear Him don't really want to know WHO He is. They only want to do what He can with all of His power and glory... and to do that we need to know HIM.

We can control God. He is bound when we do what He says, and I agree that having our center in Him is of prime importance. Heh, you can think of that idea as being in control of God if you want to, but He is the one who gave us that law and none of us could have made Him make it.

No, but He can take away someone's idea about HOW to be financially responsible, by assuring someone that they should rely upon Him, instead of only themselves or their employer or the government for finances.

Heh, one of the leaders of the Church is Jesus Christ Himself, and Yes, He can take those things away.

We also can't control God, and when He is our center we will not be disappointed in Him. :)

Yes, we all listen, and sometimes we follow, but the key is to then turn away.

Yes. Only leaders of the Church, or the kingdom of God, can give keys of the kingdom to others... and they can only give the keys they've received, and they can also take them away (or make them ineffective)

Heh, no, I gave Him my head too. And He then made me all new to live for Him. :)

Okay, I’ve got one. I heard it in this morning on a BYU-TV devotional, in someone’s opening comments to loosen up. And btw, I didn’t memorize it word for word, so I’m only going to give you the gist of it. In the beginning, when Adam talked with God, Adam told Him he was lonely, and that cows and sheep and other animals weren’t enough, so God told Adam he would give him a soul mate much better than the other things he had seen. God said she would cook, or make all of his meals, and do all the work in the garden. She would also always love him, no matter what he ever did, and be the first to apologize for disagreements. And to show him she loved him she would always be affectionate, and do everything she could do to try to please him. And then Adam asked God how much this would cost him, and God said just an arm and a leg. But Adam told God that was a little too much, and asked what he could get for a rib. End of joke. And btw, I gave God both my arms and my legs. :)

Wow. That is a very good post, especially from someone who is agnostic, but one other point that I am thinking of now is that a bishop is one of the main links in God's church.Or in other words, not only are bishops usually very good people, but they also have some of the main keys in God's kingdom, and anything they need to meet the needs of other people can be supplied through the work of the Church.... and the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints can do a LOT to meet the needs of ALL people.

I think most of it has to do with peer pressure, when someone doesn’t have enough confidence in themselves, or God, to avoid or get out of a hole… or what some people perceive to be a hole while telling others they’re in one, which, because they listen to them, they end up feeling depressed and would rather be dead than still living. Or in other words: Q: Why do so many of us listen to the promptings of Satan and other people who preach messages of doom and gloom? A: Because so many of us don’t know enough to NOT listen to those people, and listen to God who loves us and wants us all to progress and come to live with him LATER, no matter what obstacle we may face. Or in other words: Q: Why do so many of us listen to other people who tell us we’re not good enough and CANNOT fit in, because we’re either too fat, or too skinny, or don’t have enough money, or that no matter what we do they cannot love us, or that some person we love is the only person who could ever love us, and we would feel better off dead than still living? A: Because so many of us DON’T know enough to LISTEN to God, instead of listening to those of us who say things like that. And btw, many of us do have a lot of power to persuade, but knowing WHO to listen to is the key.

Well, good. That's a good sign. And I think you know how to get filled. :) I always look at these scriptures as a progression. First he saw them as intelligences, then as intelligences clothed in spirits, then as "Souls" or spirits clothed in mortal bodies. Just my two cents worth. :) Mags I agree that is one possible way to understand "intelligences", but there is also another way to interpret that idea and I have already shared what I mean. :)

Yes, sometimes, and often. I'm not saying "or". I'm saying "and", sometimes and often. Yes, sometimes and often. By those words that you just used did you have a design in mind when adding more ideas to share more knowledge of the truth than in another's lack of sharing more or all of the truth in their ideas which shared a partial knowledge of the truth that the other person is using ???Hmm? I don't get it. Are you rambling? Or are you trying to share some more of the truth?

My wife and I can receive satellite broadcasts, and what is gives us is more choices to choose from... choices that we would not have if we only had a simple antenna. Choices like BYU-TV, the History and Discovery channels, and many more stations we would not receive without a satellite dish receiver. But there are still times when nothing good is on... which are times for other choices. :)

Yes, that was a good story, Winnie... but some men can read and think too.