Ray

If you are doing your best at doing God's will, in all of the things you can do, then you are doing God's will in doing those things by doing the best you can do. :) The first principle of the gospel is Faith in God, which involves gaining and living by God's assurance in all that God wants you to do. And the second principle of the gospel is Repenting from what God will tell you is "sin", which means to turn away from things you do wrong and to do the best you can do. And then as you keep doing those things, the best you can do, you'll continue to learn more of what God wants you to do... and not just to do the things that He'll tell you but to help you become a new, and better, You. :)

All people will be rewarded for the good things they do and did, but the only people who will go to "heaven" will be those who do and did what Jesus did... which was everything He knew our Father wanted Him to do, not missing a jot or a tittle, in all of the laws He knew and taught that all of us should do. And if you don't know what you should do, there is a very easy way to find out... just do what you know God wants you to do and He'll teach you more to do. :)

Ahh, a breath of fresh air.Thank you, ApostleKnight. It was very good for me to see you say that. :) Testimonies from God, with assurances from Him, are the best answers we can possibly find. Far better than those from other people who give us their thoughts or a piece of their mind.

Just a word of caution to everyone who isn’t already aware of this: There is a difference between actual teachings of our Lord to His prophets who instruct other members of His church, and what some members of the Church (and other people) believe our Lord and His prophets were and are teaching. And I think ApostleKnight did a good job explaining that some of his beliefs are not official teachings of our Lord to His church, but even when people use very plain words some others don’t correctly understand them. And as always, if anyone has any doubts or troubles distinguishing what are actual teachings of our Lord and His prophets, they can read and study the words of God and His prophets while asking God for more wisdom.

Yes, that would help too, but we must first understand the term: "scientifically proven evidence".Some guys called scientists thinking they have proved something by what they consider to be evidence wouldn't necessarily prove anything to me... if I could find another way to possibly interpret their "evidence", perhaps after some new instruments have become available to interpret it, or perhaps by knowing Who to believe. And btw, faith is a substance, or is substantial evidence, we can't see but which still assures us of a truth... if the person who assures us really knows it.. and the fact that we can't see faith or that type of evidence doesn't mean the assurance is not true... no matter how much some people may be assured to believe otherwise. Or in other words, we can choose to believe an assurance from God, as well as an assurance from Satan, (as well as an assurance from ourself or another person or people), and I choose to believe God because I know God doesn't lie, no matter how many other people may choose to NOT believe Him.

The miracle is what you and Nick are becoming. Stay strong and have faith in our Father. :)

I believe our Lord is using “in the flesh” to refer to the flesh of our fleshly bodies, whether mortal or otherwise. Or in other words, without the ordinances of the gospel and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest to men in their bodies of flesh. Or in other words, without the ordinances of the gospel, including the ordinance whereby we are baptized into the church of Christ, and the ordinance whereby we are confirmed in His Church by the laying on of hands (and by which we are told to receive the Holy Ghost), and the ordinance whereby we receive our washings and anointings, and the ordinance whereby we receive our endowments, and the ordinance whereby we are sealed to our spouse(s) and our children and our fathers (and their wives), the power of godliness, or the power to become as God, is not manifest or obvious to men in the flesh, or to men who have bodies of flesh. Or in other words, without coming to this Earth, and receiving our flesh, and receiving the ordinances of the gospel and the authority of the priesthood (whereby men can also receive the priesthood), the power of godliness, or the power to become as God, will not be manifest, or obvious. And btw, our Lord has a wonderful way of using words, but it still helps me to use other words, or in other words, to liken His words to ourselves and our understanding so that we can better understand Him.

Please define the parameters you are thinking of when you think of "scientifically proven evidence".I'd really like to hear your answer - from someone who has faith in science.

It helps me to realize that prayer is a word we use to refer to talking to God about something, to know Him and ask Him about something He knows or to thank Him for something He’s done. And all of that talking can be easily done just as talking to others about something, and the more that we talk the more that we know both God and all that He knows. Prayer – the way to know God and all that He knows – and the more that we talk we will know - and the more we can be like God.

Never said rude Ray. Harsh is not rude. Never said be rude Ray, I said you can be harsh in critiquing my ideas if you have scriptural basis for doing so. Talking about scriptures isn't a waste of time. By that standard, Paul and Nephi and anyone who discussed scripture at length with others was wasting time. I disagree. Before you can ask God if something's true, you have to read/learn it. All I'm asking is that if you disagree with an idea you show me what scriptures God told you were true that refute the idea you disagree with. Jesus would discuss scripture with those wanting to learn more, as he did all through his ministry in explaining his role as Savior and the reality of his divine Sonship. Yes, Nephi and Peter and other prophets of our Lord, and even our Lord Himself, often used scripture to support what they said, ApostleKnight, but they didn't always do that, and you don't always do that either, and yet you come down on me as if I am wrong by sharing what I think and believe and know with you and other people while advising you to learn from God... not me, but God, the "one" I am learning from. And basically, you came down on me, "harshly", because I advise and keep advising people to learn from God, and for not providing scriptural references, and even if you know you should learn from God it still is not wrong to say that... and it is certainly not condescending to say that we should all be learning from God. Anyway, you can say what you want, and be how you want, including being "harsh" with me if you want to be, but I know that is not the way that my Lord would want me to be with you or other people, and I will never do that to you or to others while sharing what I know is the truth. I hope you enjoy your life. :) Heh, I'm not interested in starting a fan club, Doc. Let's all learn the truth from God. :)

If this is the way you really feel, ApostleKnight, these comments are also a waste of my time, but I'll say it again to share how I feel and to try to help you again. You have basically admitted to being deliberately rude to me while also saying that you aren’t asking for any pardon (neither mine nor God’s) about acting that way to me, and later you even went so far as to say you would welcome me to be as rude to you as long as I defend my position with scriptures… while I have simply said (and said repeatedly) that if you (or anyone else) disagrees with me on something, that you (or anyone else) should simply ask God to know the truth about that issue for yourself. And the fact that I also tell you (and other people) that I know what I know to be true, while telling you that you should ask God to know the truth for yourself, doesn’t mean I have a superior attitude in telling you what I know to be true. I’m simply telling you (and other people) what I know to be true, while saying you can ask God for yourself… and you can take my advice or leave it but I know I am not being rude. And btw, even if all I ever did was to tell people what I know to be true, without EVER sharing or explaining how or why I know the things that I know to be true, (and I have often shared some thoughts from other people who know what I know to be true), it would be no different than the way some people wrote some scriptures to tell you (and me) what they all knew to be true, because all of those people who wrote what they knew also learned the way I do… and the way I think all of us should learn the truth instead of “talking about” some scriptures while being rude with people as if that would help anybody know anything. Anyway, you can go ahead and have your fun being rude to people while “talking about” some scriptures with them. I’ll just spend my time with some other people who I believe know “What Jesus Would Do”. p.s. And btw, I aired this in public because it happened in public. He did not come to me privately.

Because you, it seemed to me, were upholding ApostleKnight's disparaging comments to me, while saying that I should learn from him about how to talk to people.. when instead you could have tried to tell him that he may be mistaken in some of his assumptions about me and what I was trying to say.And btw, I think it is helpful to distinguish between things I think, things I believe, and things that I know to be true, because not every idea that I have about everything is supported by knowledge through a testimony from God. Or in other words, when I say "I think", I am sometimes expressing a personal opinion, that may or may not be true, but when I say "I know" something is true I am saying that is true according to knowledge I have received from God, through a personal assurance (or testimony) from Him to me, and believe me, there is a difference, so I will continue to make the distinctions.

ApostleKnight: After those fateful words follows a post that could only have been written in martyr-mode. Your response to my posts is rife with infantile outbursts like, "Why is it okay for you to talk like that...how come I can't?" My question had a purpose, ApostleKnight. Why didn’t you just answer it? What makes you think you can you say things like this without sounding condescending to me? And your characterization of my comment being an “infantile outburst” is exactly the type of thing I was talking about before when I said you were being rude. A comment I wouldn’t have made, and yet for some reason you think you can make a comment like that… while actually being justified in doing it. You apparently have a different understanding of what "true LDS beliefs" are. I'm unaware of any official LDS teaching that says when a man/woman is exalted to godhood they become a different species. But then really, the silly argument over the word "species" is semantic and one which I'm not interested in hashing out any further. I never said that Man is or will become a different species even when exalted to godhood, ApostleKnight. I was simply trying to say that our species (the species of Man) is of the same species as God. I have to say again--sincerely—get over yourself. Did you say this, AGAIN, without thinking about it at all, or did you know what you were saying when you made that comment while knowing how I would interpret it? And what makes you think you can say something like that without sounding condescending to me? Have you ever heard me make a comment like that to you, even when speaking in a thread like this? I wasn't even thinking of your previous posts when I wrote my post about "keeping our eyes on the ball." If you don't like the phrase I used, fine, but Ray, there's a huge difference between you assuming I was inferring that you were "off," and you flat out saying, "Pray about my teachings AK, before you get more off than you are already." I didn’t say you were thinking about my posts when you wrote what you wrote in your post. And yet you still said, to all of us, that we should “keep our eyes on the ball” as you proceeded to make your comments. And yet you don’t think we’ll think that remark was condescending while you’d think my comments were. And btw, I believe there is NOTHING wrong with ANYONE telling someone else they are wrong while asking them to think and pray some more… as long as that person who is making that comment actually knows they are right beyond doubt and can back that up with a testimony. (and yes, I said a testimony, instead of some words in some books) You're tilting at windmills, Quixote. A cute phrase, ApostleKnight, but it sounds like it may be another disparaging remark to me, based on what you have said to me in the past. Bleh. What a tantrum! And you were acting mature when you said this? Why do you say things like this without regard to my feelings, while assuming that I’m condescending? "Note it well," is a syntactical device meant to function as an underline or highlight of the concept immediately following. If you take it to mean, "I'm always right so listen to my words of wisdom oh ye hopeless ignorant saps," well that's your choice. But geez...c'mon! What? You want me to cut you some slack? Then why don’t you try cutting me some slack… before responding to my comments while assuming that I’m condescending when I have not said that to you? Okay Ray, let's get this over with so we can move on. What official teachings of the Church am I "off" about? Be specific, give quotes, references, etc... Seriously, if I'm in error I'd like to be corrected. No one likes being wrong. However, I'm not going to let you just sew a red flag to my post and sail by. Back it up, where am I mistaken in doctrine? You were off in saying that God is not a species, and my first response to you alluded to some references. But if you’re not satisfied with that, you can do some more research. I’m not doing your homework for you. The thing that upsets me about this whole argument, Ray, is that we really agree...on every point I believe. But you are misreading my post--or I didn't express myself clearly enough--and we have this whole series of posts back and forth trying to harmonize views that are already in harmony. Heh, I think you are saying this now because, after my other posts, you can now see the point I was making, but before you were saying God is not a species, while saying godhood an office, that is attained through the priesthood, without mentioning that we (all of Man) are of His race. And yes, we were in more harmony that you thought we were before, and you were upset with me because you misread my posts… but I never made disparaging comments to you(not counting my words in red, which revealed my thoughts to you, which I did not express before) Instead of telling me I'm off, Ray, you might just ask me, "AK, I'm not sure I agree with you on <insert concept here>, would you clarify what you mean when you say <insert excerpt here>?" Yes, and you could also have done that, instead of making disparaging remarks about me to me and other people who read and are reading this thread. Or in other words, you could have asked me what I meant by what I said when I said what I said before, instead of making those disparaging comments to and about me. See, this is what I'm talking about. I wasn't even referring to you in my post, yet here you are acting like I wrote your name in all caps, bold, italics, underlined, highlighted in yellow and bracketed by insulting emoticons. Let's make a deal Ray: If I don't address you specifically in my posts, assume I'm not talking about you. If I direct my comments to you by name, assume I'm talking to you. Seems sensible to me. No, I wasn’t thinking that you were thinking about me as you made those comments you made, except for those comments you made to me which I told you I thought were rude and disparaging to me. And even then when I told you, you continued to say that I was being condescending. I find it strange that you think that way, while thinking that you can somehow be justified. I never once addressed you by name until I told you to stop being condescending. But I wasn’t, even though you thought I was. And I never have acted with a condescending attitude, even though you and others have thought that I was. You do not know the real me. Don't assume I'm always talking to or about you unless I use your name! I wouldn’t, and you did. I'm not going to waste any more of my day responding to a gross misinterpretation of my words. I also wouldn’t be responding to your misinterpretation of my words unless I thought I could clear this up, and I hope that if we do it, when we’ve done it, we’ll forget about all of this, while using our experience to avoid making this mistake again, while we both think and say better things to and about each other. I don't like arguing with you or fighting with you. I just wish the same spirit of that last quote was in all your posts. If it is, and I'm missing it, it's my fault. I'll look harder. Thank you. I never have tried to make disparaging remarks, even though I have seen that coming from others, and the only reason I have tried to express my thoughts with you here is to try to clear up this misunderstanding. But the final words are all yours, as I hope you won’t make even one more disparaging comment to or about me again.

Tommy: Ray: IMHO AK is not being rude, he's being direct. You may disagree with him, but understand, he's not trying to be smart aleck, or to engage you in a battle of wits. He's trying to offer you some advice on how to intelligently and, yes, spiritually engage non-LDS. Since AK is almost universally respected by everyone on this board--particularly us non-Mormons, you might consider his counsel, rather than reacting to it. Heh, another dagger thrust at my heart. But okay, I’ll take your advice and counsel, Tommy, by trying to see what it is YOU think I can learn from ApostleKnight about how to “intelligently and, yes, spiritually engage non-LDS people”. And here’s my review of this experience: After several posts where I had been trying to explain that God and Man are of the same species, ApostleKnight came in with the following post (and I’ll share what I thought and continue to think about it): And then after that post from ApostleKnight, I then said this to him: … which I thought was very gracious of me considering all that ApostleKnight had said and implied about me in his post, because not only did I try to tell him the truth I know about that key point in this thread, but I also offered him an alternative perspective which could easily appear to be true and make sense to someone who would say that God was and is not a species, while advising him to think and pray about that alternative viewpoint before continuing with the attitude he had. To which ApostleKnight then responded by trying to set me straight with his “proper perspective”, again, and I was pretty much prepared for a response like that if he continued to disagree with me, and while he did say something which made more sense to me than what he had said before, when he clarified his beliefs by implying the same idea I had while I was trying to share what I know about how God and Man are of the same species, although he didn’t identify that species as God, he also said some other things which showed that he still had the same attitude he had before after quoting my advice to him: And for those of you who think it's okay to talk to other people like ApostleKnight talked to me, which is not the same way I talked to him (although my red comments might show that I thought about it), I'd say you still have a lot to learn about Jesus Christ, and all of those who truly follow Him – but yes, we all do stumble from time to time, which is why I forgave ApostleKnight. And I truly do hope your father gets to feeling better, ApostleKnight. A good Father is a wonderful asset.

Get over yourself Ray. Figure out what everyone's been saying over the months about how you communicate. Pray about it, before you get more "off" in your manner of dialogue. Again, get over yourself. You're not always right, everyone else isn't always wrong, and it's possible for you to be "off" about someone else being "off" so buzz off already. I'm done sugar-coating this, I'm so tired of your stubbornness and unwillingness to change. Get it together, it's very annoying and if speaking candidly is being rude then you need to grow thicker skin to withstand honest critique. Again, if I had said something like this to you, you would say I was very rude. Wouldn't you? And btw, your comments are making no effect upon me because I know that I was not rude, so don't feel bad if you later can see that talking like you did is not good. I've already forgiven you. :)

Heh, tests (in school) do not test your knowledge. They test what you can remember. And while it is good to remember what you have learned, not remembering doesn't mean you don't know or never knew the answers.And Satan was "kicked out' of heaven, because he chose to rebel, and he had the chance to repent (turn away from) his choice, but instead he chose to go to war with our Father... a war he could and never can win.

ApostleKnight: Speaking LDS to LDS, Ray, let me be clear. What makes mankind, mankind, is our intelligence (as per D&C's definition; I'm not referring to knowledge of facts, but the core of our beings). Animals don't hold the priesthood. Mankind does. Plants don't hold the priesthood. Mankind does. Animals and plants can't become gods. Mankind can. See D&C 132 for more info. In that sense, mankind--meaning those with intelligences capable of being exalted--is one species. Jesus's type of intelligence or being is the same as ours so we're of the "same species as gods," meaning the nature of our being, not our status or position of authority. Priesthood authority isn't an organic genetic marker or species delineator. Having priesthood doesn't make one man/woman a different species or intelligence than another who does have it. I already know the truth, ApostleKnight. I don't need to look anything up. And the one species we are is all of God, so let's refer to God as our species. Ray: And try thinking and praying before you answer that question to keep you from getting more "off". ApostleKnight: Ray, you need to quit these condescending remarks. It's childish, and I'm not the only one who's tired of this habit of yours. Your post would've been fine without that last comment. Why do you put that crap in your posts? Cut it out, grow up, be aware of how you articulate yourself, learn when to hold back and when to share, and just get on the same page everyone else on this board is on as far as communicating effectively and positively. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm in no mood to be trifled with today, especially by you who has had so many warnings about your habit of talking down. You may not mean to talk down, but it's talking down nonetheless. Figure out another way of encouraging someone to ponder an issue without warning them of how wrong they are and are likely to be without your not-so-gentle nudging. There. Like it or lump it. That's how it is. ApostleKnight, it pains me to say this to you, but you are being very rude. Try comparing what I said, to what you said to me as if I had said that to you. There is a way to let someone know they are "off" without being blatantly rude, and while you might prefer to never have someone correct you, it was still a good thing to do.

Yes. You and everyone else is a god, in embryo, with the potential to become perfect. And by obeying our Father we'll attain all He has, in all of His glory and power. I mean possessing all of the traits that make God God, in all of His glory and power. If I asked you something about something you once knew, would you think you're less perfect than you think you are right now if you couldn't remember, although you know you knew that once? For instance, what did you say and do on the day you were born, after coming from your Mother's womb? I know you truly possess all that knowledge but can you remember that now? Why think you're less perfect by not remembering right now of all you've done and said in the past? You are what you have done and said, regardless of if you remember. No. Thank God. I wouldn't even be here without Him. :) Our physical bodies, through Adam, were created from the dust (or elements) of the Earth. And when they were formed God put our spirits into them, thus giving them "breath of life".I'll bet you could have thought of that if you had thought some more. It's easy or simple to know and understand, once we have an assurance from God. :)

There is some truth in what you said, ApostleKnight, but you're still "off" on at least one key point, because God is a species, and is the only species from whom Man was created in the beginning... with male and female genders. Or do you consider Man to be the species from whom Gods can be formed, by obtaining Man's highest office, after obtaining what we call the priesthood and then obeying Man's greatest laws? And try thinking and praying before you answer that question to keep you from getting more "off".

Serg, I've noticed lately that you really have trouble with the message that's taught by the Church. Do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message with us? If you no longer believe Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, then who do you think has shared God's true message with all of us now here on Earth? Or do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message? Why share what's not true, or what you think is false, if you can share the truth with all of us?

Dr. T.: I’m curious if you are certain that you and PC have a similar take on that (the idea that Jesus was both God and Man) ? From where do you get that conclusion? From some posts he wrote just before that post I wrote, when I stated what I saw as agreement. Dr. T.: It seems to me, He (Jesus) was one person not two. When I say He was God, I am not saying He was the same person some other people (and sometimes I) refer to as “God”, when referring to our Father in heaven. I am saying He was God because He: #1: was and still is a son of God, firstborn in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh by our Father in heaven, and a son is always of the same species as that from which his father was. #2: was and still is Jehovah, the one and only God who communicated with Man from the beginning after the fall of Adam and Eve, and who still communicates as God with Man on Earth to reveal the will of our Father in heaven. #3: possessed all the perfection of our Father in heaven, even though in form He was only as Man, and He is still as perfect as God ever was, and as all Gods can ever be. Dr. T.: When we say He was God and not God, all knowing yet didn't know something, etc. this is a logical violation. Yes, it is, and I never did say that. We all know our Lord, or we all can know, that as Man, “he grew from grace to grace” and “in favor with God and Man”. Yet, as God, He still knew everything He knew before He was born on Earth, which was everything about everything, even though He couldn’t remember all of that... just as we can’t remember everything we once knew when we lived in heaven before we were born on Earth. Dr. T.: If we try and solve this by saying that He merely compartmentalized His divine attributes and did not use them, then we are essentially saying the same thing. Even if He chose to not know something for a split second, He ceased to be all knowing. Have you ever known anyone who has lost their memory, like from amnesia, and then seen them recover their memory? And how before they totally regain everything they once knew they seem “quick” to pick it up again? That’s pretty much the same thing that can happen to all of us here. The things that we knew can come back quickly if we are in tune with our Father in heaven. And btw, I’m not going to prove that point to you, and there is nothing I can do to make you believe it, but at least you have that thought to think about now while asking our Father if it is really the truth. Dr. T.: I think that we are obligated to putting logic aside and accept this on faith (in this instance) if we are going to accept this belief. Here they do not harmonize so what do we do? Keep reading and thinking and studying and praying while asking our Father to give us His assurance of the truth, while knowing that some things we don’t know right now will make more sense, and help us see true harmony, when we know and can see everything... or at least all we need to know to know something. Now doesn't that make sense to you?

Heh, I was just stating "our" beliefs, Tommy. I'm not trying to "conquer" anybody... other than Satan and his forces, of course. But I do think it helps to share our ideas, and get to know our "adversaries". :) Let me play Kierkegaard's advocate (not ready to call him a devil). If faith and reason could be absolutely harmonized, then the "faith" would not be faith, it would be supporting evidence. First, let's just state the obvious by stating that faith (or assurance) can be harmonized with our reasoning, as we use our reasoning to explain or share our beliefs while "feeling sure" that our reasoning is true. Now, does that mean our faith or assurance that our reasoning is true is no longer faith when we know what is true? Heh, I don't think so. And I am just as sure of my reasoning as I share my reasoning as I know that my reasoning is true.

Phepfffh. (that's me vibrating my lips). Whoever can believe that thought seriously needs some professional help. Doc, Faith is simply another word for assurance. Are you now telling me you can't have some reasoning while also feeling sure that your reasoning is true? Or that you can't have some reasoning while having God assure you it's true? Think, Man!!! It ain't that hard to figure out. But I guess we can believe whatever we want.

Very good, Tommy. I’m glad to see we are in more agreement than I thought. And now I will just add my witness, to state just what I mean. :) The scriptures referring to our Lord being “made a little lower than the angels”, found in Hebrews 2:9 should be understood within the context of verse 7, stating our Lord was born as a Man, and also with the understanding that all of Man, or Mankind, are “made a little lower than the angels” in our form of glory, not that Man originated or is from some other species than God and Angels are. Or in other words, in form of glory, there is Man and Angel and God, but all of us, and all of them, are literally children of God, whether Man or Angel or God was ever born as a Son to a Father. And Philipians 2:6 also does not mean that our Lord did not continue to be God, although he was only in the form of Man (which differs in glory from God). And for anyone who doesn’t agree with me and Tommy, I hope you’ll continue to learn. :)

Who ever said that a prophet is the one to "turn it on"??? A prophet is only acting as a prophet when he, or she (in which case she was be a prophetess), is receiving inspiration and revelation from God, and since that person must wait upon God to communicate with him/her, and God doesn't always communicate with each and every person who ever was or has been a prophet each and every day 24/7, the control is all up to God. Or in other words, Man cannnot compel God to communicate with him/her, so God is in control, and only when Man receives inspiration or revelation from God is Man acting as a prophet. But of course, once God has communiated with an individual, that person can still be considered to be a prophet or prophetess, even though they may no longer communicate with God any more, if you define a prophet or prophetess as someone who has ever received communication from God. And yes, God has changed in the past, because God was once born on Earth, and before God was born He lived in Heaven, where He returned after being resurrected. To think that God has always been the same, each and every day in the past, does not take into consideration the things He has done and has yet to do. Some people should think more before they say something, while knowing there's more to learn.