Ray

Okay. Please get your story straight, shanstress. You just said this in another thread: And FYI, when you don’t have a testimony from God, and you are relying on the testimonies of other people who do have a testimony from God, you never really know who or what to believe, so you are very vulnerable to Satan and His influence. But if you now want to state that your testimony to leave was a testimony directly from God, and not Satan, then I’ll see you in court where we will both hear the truth directly from God and His prophets. And btw, hearing about those bad things you said happened to you and that you saw in the Church, really does break my heart, sincerely, and it let me know what to watch out for, but we should all know better than to rely on each other instead our own assurance from God. I have, and it was something to the effect of, "The LDS church is not the true church." Go elsewhere. Ray, it bugs me that you are so quick to discount the messages that others have gotten from God. You are not the 'end all, be all' who speaks for God. I know I'm not, and I never said I was, I'm simply relying on the faith I have received from God. ... and I know better than to listen to Satan.

Hey! Yah! I’d like that! I’ll just stick around til it’s finished. :) Heh, that was only the side issue, and not the main point, that I shared in all of those posts. And I hope those thoughts will be some help to you as you read the “primary texts” from God’s prophets. Each one of us who sees the truth can see when others don’t see it, but it’s hard to help those who think they can see and won’t seek the truth from God… and instead only come back with “what about this” ideas to support their own conclusions. Yes, I agree, but we all should do what we can to help each other find God, and stop arguing, and then our duty is done.And btw, for my going away cake, as a present, I’d prefer a COCONUT cake. :)

Heh, how come you still don’t get it? It’s not the board that is frustrating me, ApostleKnight, but the fact that some people won’t seek to know the truth from God, even when it’s placed right in front of their face. O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside supposing they know of themselves… … But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints. 2 Nephi 9:28 & 43 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom ; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. – 2 Nephi 28:30 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. – 2 Nephi 28:31 And btw, I’m saying all of this from a long way off, as I keep walking away from the darkness, and as I walk and continue to walk toward light from God, I bid those who aren't following "goodbye".

Thank you, Traveler. I'll look forward to meeting you personally. :) ApostleKnight, I’m a little surprised that you don’t understand me and that you still think discussions with us will solve anything. And I never suggested that we put our trust in the scriptures, so “GoReadTheScriptures.com” also wouldn’t solve anything. But if there was a website that suggested that people seek their answers directly from God, called “SeekYourAnswersDirectlyFromGod.com” or whatever, I would be more than happy to refer all people to that website, rather than a website where people simply share what they believe. … and it’s not because I have some kind of problem sharing what I believe with other people, but because I know what I know, in knowing that the only way for anyone else to know the truth is by seeking their own answers from God. And btw, I simply came to pick up my hat and to see who might possibly miss me, and for those who will, as I’ll miss some who came here, I’ll look forward to meeting you personally. Bye now.

Do you realize how many people in the past (Romans, Greeks, Jews, etc)just sat around discussing things, with no other real point to the discussions? If someone wants to know the truth, they can know it right now, and that's all I'm trying to say to those who want to know it... and even if some people don't really want to know it, the ideas they accept, and don't accept, will affect them right now and in the future. Anyway, I'm out of here now. Too many people talk without really wanting to know what is true, and it distresses me something fiere when I come here. Heh, but have a nice life, folks. You can do what you want to. And I'll hope that we'll all learn the truth. :)

FYI, the idea that you or anybody else needs to read ALL of God’s scriptures while investigating ALL the secular sources of information you or anyone else can dig up on God, or His Church, or any church that claims to be the true church of God, before you can know the truth, is an idea that does not come from God. Or in other words, all this procrastinating you are doing, and that other people are doing, is simply a big waste of your time, because all you really need to know that something is really true is an assurance you can get from God now, meaning you don’t have to wait until you’ve spent your whole life in search of the truth because God can assure you of the truth now… before you spend any more time reading any more of what you can read in some books or other sources of information from anybody, including those who claim to be speaking for God. And btw, I was once a member of another church, which claimed to be the true church of Christ, and my relationship with God then was good. And the only reason I didn’t accept these other truths that I’ve now found in this Church is because I didn’t know they were “out there” to begin with. Or in other words, you’ve put yourself in a delicate situation here, pushka, because you are now exposed to these teachings, and your decision about what to do about them is already affecting you, so you can either continue to reject them, or accept them, right now… and to NOT believe them now is to reject them now… and I don’t advise that you do anything without asking God first, and now. And btw, sorry about the pressure, but you’re a big girl now, and you are already making your decision. As a missionary, I was careful not to "give up" on people who rejected the message or just didn't listen. I went forth with the voice of warning, but I wasn't privy to the communications between them and God. Thus, I couldn't say if they'd "had their chance" because I didn't know if God did or didn't tell them our message was true. The same thing applies here, I think. We don't know what God has or hasn't told someone yet. Instead of drawing a line in the sand, let's erase the lines that divide us. The "line" is always there whether anyone acknowledges it or not, and anyone can receive a message from God at any time when they really want to know what is true, so when they don't know the truth, and by their words we can see that, then we can know they haven't really asked God for His answer. But yes, normally, in the mission field, things are done a bit differently. And those who come here should be ready to hear what they'll hear... because what they do with this information will affect them.

Heh, I thought I covered that by saying he will be judged by what he has received and by what he was willing to receive, with the understanding that our Lord will spew the “lukewarm” out of his mouth. Or in other words, we all have 3 choices: Believe God and those God has inspired to deliver His message(s), knowing God has inspired them through the power of the Holy Ghost. Believe Satan and those who Satan has inspired to deliver his message(s), believing the words of God were and are NOT inspired by God. Believe nothing, because you haven’t made up your mind, which is to NOT believe God or those God has inspired. It’s very simple really. And the solution is also simple. Get an answer and get it from God… RIGHT NOW!!!

Okay. I’d like to add one more thought on this issue before I hang up my hat. I believe the possibility exists that some people who won’t find themselves in the Celestial kingdom will never really know what they missed, and are missing, because they won't believe the Celestial kingdom really exists and they will only get what they were expecting to receive. Or in other words, God may never tell some people about what they missed, and are missing, instead only telling them about what they will and can receive, because God would not want to cause people any pain from knowing they could have received more, when it really wouldn’t do them any good. For instance, those who believe God is totally incorporeal and exists only as a Spirit without a body will live in their idea of heaven in the Telestial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit and certain angels of God, and maybe not knowing there is anything more. And those who believe God is totally incorporeal except for Jesus who has a real body will live in their idea of heaven in the Terrestrial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and certain other angels who are sent by God to them from heaven. And those who believe our Father also has a body like Jesus will live in their idea of heaven in the Celestial kingdom, because they will receive the ministry of our Father in heaven, and only they will truly know Him, or truly see him again, along with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and ALL the angels. Or in other words, I kinda doubt that either our Lord or our heavenly Father would want to “rub it in” for the people who don’t make it to higher kingdoms in heaven, so the judgment may be a very private moment without everybody seeing how everybody else has done. There is still a kink that I can’t work out yet on this, though, and that is what I would do if I lived in a kingdom that other people I know couldn’t get to, and they asked me about how to get to my place.

Ray, please could you clarify this last paragraph for me, I may be reading it wrong or being a little dim. Are you saying that if PC was killed tomorrow, whilst still investigating the Church's beliefs, although not having had the chance to read the BOM in full and come to a decision on whether or not he believes in and is going to be Baptised into the LDS church, he will not have a 2nd chance at hearing the Gospel according to the LDS when he dies, because he wasn't quick enough? Would that apply to all people investigating or hearing from members of the LDS church about their beliefs who were killed before deciding whether or not to accept it too? Okay, I’ll give you my answer to your example, according to my understanding, which I believe is inspired by God and has been inspired by God as I’ve learned from God and from God’s true prophets through the power of the Holy Ghost. If Tommy died at this moment, he would be judged by what he accepts and what he is willing to accept at this moment, so if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone with the actual authority to baptize him, or if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to receive faith or an assurance from God assuring him of the truth on this issue (and he can actually receive that faith or assurance from God at this moment), then after arriving in the spirit world he would later learn that he was wrong, and that he truly did need to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone who did have the authority to baptize him, while also learning that he should have sought for faith or an assurance from God to help him know this truth, as well as any and all other truths, but finding himself classed among others who had heard the gospel truth but rejected it in their mortal lives, instead accepting ideas from people (other than God) who taught or tried to teach what they believed was true but really wasn’t, not being found worthy of the celestial kingdom or the laws of the celestial kingdom because he had neither been baptized by someone with authority to baptize him nor received and relied upon faith (or an assurance) from God assuring him of this truth when he actually could have received that faith (or assurance) from God. Or in other words, people who hear the gospel in this world and do not accept what they hear, after hearing an actual truth, will be judged as people who were not willing to accept that truth, and instead were only willing to accept what Satan or people in this world taught them in their teachings which were not inspired or authorized by God, having chosen not to accept a truth they could have known to be true by simply seeking faith (or an assurance) from God. Or in other words, nobody can reject the gospel here in this world and then, upon finding themselves in spirit form in the spirit world, find out the gospel is true after all and then seek to have other people perform the ordinances they need and could have performed for themselves so they can then go to the Celestial kingdom, because it just doesn’t work that way. And if you don’t believe me, believe the words of our Lord, as recorded in D&C section 76. Or in other words, the only people who receive any benefit from hearing the gospel in the spirit world are and will be those who never heard it in this world, who would have received it in this world if they had heard it in this world, but because they didn't hear it, they didn't accept it. Or in other words, God is not going to punish or condemn people who never heard or hear the gospel in this world, according to some who think that those who never heard or hear it will suffer, because everyone will receive an equal chance to hear the gospel either here in this world or in the next world if they didn't or do not hear it here. Life is not just a game, people. Our decisions really matter. So let’s put our trust only in God. (edited repeatedly to try to make this very clear, and I think it is very clear now - posting finished)

Not necessarily, because I don’t know the exact date when members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) no longer had the keys of authority from our Lord. I do know it was sometime after the prophets and apostles, those who held the keys, no longer led the Church, because those who did not have the keys either put them to death or simply voted them out of office, after making their apostate doctrines popular among the members, thus usurping their authority and claiming to have our Lord’s authority when they actually had no authority to do that, but I don’t know exactly when that happened. But I can tell you this. Even if the members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) still had authority from our Lord until our Lord revoked His authority from among them and gave it to others, with Joseph Smith at the head directly under Jesus Christ through Peter, James & John, the members of the so-called Protestant religions in Christianity don’t have a real leg to stand on… because if the members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) still had and now has authority from our Lord, the Protestants were and are apostates of that church, and if the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints now has authority from our Lord, the Protestants either don’t accept the fact that we ever received authority from our Lord or they are apostates from our church … while claiming to have authority from our Lord just as others did in former days when they actually had and have no authority from our Lord. Anyway, I’d guess that was the long answer to your question, and the short version to what I think you were mainly asking is Yes, those who wish to enter the kingdom of God must be baptized by those who had or have authority to do that directly from our Lord or the people He has authorized to lead His true church on Earth. And btw, since this is now my 3600th post on this website, I am officially retiring from this website. Thank you and pray for the best. :)

I've helped you as much as I can, Tommy. Keep learning by learning from God. :) And btw, I hope you will someday find out whether or not I am speaking for myself, or whether I am speaking and/or writing as I am moved by the power of the Holy Ghost. And I hope that because I want to be one with you as I want to be one with God, and with everyone else who wants to be one with God. :)

Heh. Hello ApostleKnight. I thought you were thinking Jesus body wasn't like ours, because His physical Father was God, so I was trying to help you understand that His body was exactly like ours, even though He had power over all of the elements. And that's it. I thought you were confused on that issue, and I was trying to help you. :)

Yes, Jesus could've died in any way he chose. He had complete control. He could've commanded his cells to age to the point of failure; he could've consciously contracted leprosy without healing himself; he could've done a lot of things. My point was that Jesus didn't have to die if he didn't want to. You and I can buy pearl cream and HGH and drink bottled water but in the end, we will die. My point was that Jesus was the only mortal who didn't have to die, biologically speaking. He could've renewed his body forever if he chose. Jesus had blood in His body, ApostleKnight, and a blood body doesn’t last forever, so, biologically speaking, He would have had to do something miraculous to prevent His mortal body from dying as ours will. Yes and no. Again, the critical difference is that we can't prevent the separation of our spirit and body indefinitely. Jesus could have. But if Jesus had done that it would have been a miracle… the same miracle He can now perform for us. And btw, I know you do know He was immortal and divine, but it seems you don’t know He was mortal.

Yes, Jesus did have power over life and death, as the scriptures and the Holy Ghost will assure us, but does that necessarily mean He wouldn’t have died a mortal death had He not chosen to die as a mortal? For instance, to offer another possibility to explain how our Lord had power over life and death, suppose that means that our Lord had power to call in angels to fight for Him to prevent some people from killing Him. Or that He could have controlled the elements, even better than Storm of the X-Men (and women), by fighting His own battles against them. Or that He could have simply caused his attackers or persecutors to die by simply separating their spirits from their bodies. Or that before He died His mortal death He could have translated Himself (His body) so that He never had to taste death by dying. Or in other words, the fact that the scriptures and the Holy Ghost will assure us that our Lord had power over life and death could mean that He could have kept Himself from being killed by people who wanted to kill Him, with His spirit never separating from His body, unless He chose to die as we do when we die by what we call our mortal death. And remember, the scriptures and the Holy Ghost will also assure us that our Lord was both mortal and immortal, and being mortal means He was just as much of a mortal as all of us are now. And btw, to offer something on the idea of whether or not our Lord was married on this Earth, how about somebody answering all of this: If our Lord actually did get married, was it for time or was it for eternity? And if it was for eternity, who do you suppose would have performed that marriage? And if it was only for time, why would our Lord have done only that? And who would He have asked to perform that marriage if that was all He really wanted? I personally believe that if He didn’t get married while living as a mortal, He got married soon after His resurrection… or if He got married before He was killed He resurrected her soon after she died… so they would never be separated, or again.

Those were great comments, Tommy, and we [LDS] are very much in agreement, but as I read your post there were a few thoughts that occurred to me that I’m not sure you understand or accept. #1: The Holy Spirit is not the same Spirit or person as the Spirit of our Lord or our heavenly Father. Or in other words, the Holy Ghost is usually the person we are referring to by the name of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit can also refer to the Spirit of our Lord or even the Spirit of our Father in heaven, because their Spirits are also Holy. In some of your posts you seemed to know this, but in some of your other posts I wasn’t so sure. #2: The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) will only dwell within us (with his Spirit mingled with our spirit in our physical body) only as long as we are righteous, because the moment we do anything to offend the Holy Ghost he will leave our physical body… .although He may decide to come back to us once we have done our best to Repent. #3: The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) can dwell within any body, with the understanding that He can’t tolerate any degree of unrighteousness, but within only one body at a time, although His power can be felt by every body who receives a manifestation from Him. Or in other words, the Holy Spirit is a person, and any person can only be in one place at a time, but He can help every body to feel His presence by the power He has to do that. And btw, when I first joined the Church, this was made more clear to me by using an analogy of the sun, which is in only one place in our solar system and can be felt by all who feel it. #4: The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) can dwell with anybody, or with any group of people, but the people who have the “gift of the Holy Ghost” have the right to receive His presence. Or in other words, those outside of the Church, who do not have the “gift of the Holy Ghost” because nobody with authority has been authorized to give them that gift which can only come to them by the laying on of hands of those who do have the authority to give that gift, can still receive the presence of the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost chooses to dwell with them, but those who have the gift of the Holy Ghost have the right to call the Holy Ghost to them, while knowing that He will come to them if they are worthy of His presence. And that’s basically all I wanted to add, because everything else you said was right on, although I will also say that the best gifts available by the power of the Holy Ghost are the revelations of truth with love from God. :)

That's true, allmosthumble. Some of us know the truth, and some of us have been deceived, and there are forces working either for or against us as we are trying to learn the truth.And btw, I hope that as you are reading these threads you are also hearing from God, as He prompts you to see and know the truth through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ray, your answer to this question may clarify this whole issue of the general apostasy: During the period of the apostasy, from roughly 100 - 1840 AD, was it possible for those who believed in Christ sincerely, based on what knowledge they had, to DIRECTLY gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom (i.e., meaning that they did not have to depend on someone in doing a specific water baptism in their name after the Restoration)? No, because God made baptism a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of God. But if there are (or were) some people who don't (or didn't) hear or read that during their mortal life, simply because nobody is telling (or told) them that, either by speaking or writing in a book they can and have read, which would make it easy to understand how and why they are (or were) not prompted to ask God about it, then they will hear (or have heard) about it later, and after accepting that truth they are (or will be) able to accept a baptism which has been done (or will be done) by others who will do that (or have done that) for them.

That's good to hear. But even if you come to the point of knowing that our "primary texts" were written by prophets of God who wrote as they were inspired to know things God revealed to them, it will not be enough to totally prepare you for actually living with God... unless you actually live by every word God reveals to you. :)

My guess is that it would have something to do with the words used in the questions of that poll and the idea that we [LDS] believe there is more to attaining our salvation than what you said, or the way you said what you said, in your short little statement above.For instance, I have trouble with the idea that I and everyone else should believe we are “sinners”, even when we already know we’re not perfect and never have claimed to be. Or in other words, it seems to me that some of us (of all people on Earth) make a point out of using the word “sinner” to try to make others feel as if they should be groveling on the ground while pleading to God for mercy for every “wrong” thing they have done, instead of simply trying to help them realize that we ALL need divine help and guidance to be able to become as totally perfect as God is and wants us to be. Anyway, that’s my version of what it means to “Admit we are “sinners”, and I prefer positive over negative ideas, but I do agree we all need to know we are not totally perfect like God. From there it’s simply a matter of being informed that divine help is available, through the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, which means more than simply “believing in Him” because we also need to do what He tells us. And then from there, once we see we need help to become as perfect as God is and that help is available through Jesus Christ, we need to know that whenever we make a mistake while trying to become perfect we then simply need to Repent, which, again, means more than simply saying we need to “confess our sins” as if confessing our wrongs has any power to help us do anything better. And that’s basically it: the plan of salvation in a nutshell, because that includes all of the knowledge we need, but we must also try to apply that knowledge or the knowledge itself won’t help us. And just in case it might help if I go over this again while trying to elaborate a little more, I’ll try to go over this again while trying to point out all of the steps as simply as I know how to do that right now. #1: Have Faith that there is a God in heaven, the most perfect being in all of existence. #2: Have Faith that Jesus Christ was sent by God to help us all become perfect. #3: Have Faith that God can assure us concerning everything God wants us to know and do as we seek perfection through Jesus Christ. #4: Have Faith that as we know and do what God wants us to know and do it will please God to know us and help us become as perfect as God is. #5: Have Faith that Jesus Christ can forgive all our “sins” as long as we sincerely Repent. #6: Keep striving to become as perfect as God is no matter how long it may take us. #7: Enter the kingdom that is prepared for us where God will then tell us, “Well done”. And btw, the plan of salvation must necessarily include everything we need to know and do to achieve or attain salvation, including every step we must know to take before our salvation is granted by God… so not until we know and do everything necessary can we say we have totally made it. For instance, if we need to be baptized by someone who has been authorized by God to baptize us, we can know we need to do that through the Faith God can give or has given us to know that. But even after we have been baptized it won’t mean we have achieved our total salvation. And if we need to receive other ordinances, either in a chapel or in a temple God has authorized people on Earth to build, in which we can know and do those things, we can know we need to receive those ordinances through the Faith God can give or has given us to know that. But, again, even after we have received all of those ordinances we still have not totally made it. And one more thing. God can assure anyone of any truth at any time, so if you don’t get your assurance from God TODAY, or during your days of probation, after you’ve been told that you can get an assurance or assurances from God, as you have been told by us, Tommy, then it won’t be anyone’s fault but your own if you never accept what you could have received by simply receiving your assurances from God instead of what some others have told you. And one more thing. Contrary to what one or more persons have said in this thread, the only people who will be able to attain the Celestial kingdom by accepting the gospel after their mortal days of probation are and will be those who did not hear what you've now heard by hearing us tell you HOW you can know the truth… so if you don’t receive your assurances from God during your mortal days of probation (which could be cut short at any moment), now that you've heard us tell you HOW you can know the truth, you will then be among those who are or were deceived by Satan and the craftiness of men instead of accepting the truth through Faith in this life, and you will not be classed among those who relied upon Faith from God to assure them of what is really the truth.

Tommy, The way YOU get to Celestial kingdom is by accepting ALL the words of God YOU receive as they are presented to YOU by either God or by other people God inspires to present them to YOU. And the way YOU can know whether or not the words people present to YOU are presented or inspired by God is by YOU actually receiving an assurance from God assuring YOU that the people who presented them to YOU were either God or inspired by God. As I said before, many people who listened to our Lord did not know they were hearing from God. And btw, that's the same standard God uses with everyone to determine if they really love God and all of His words... not basing where they go by what other people know, but what they know and knew from God. Or in other words, nowhere have I said that you need to receive every word of God that God has already presented or is now presenting or can continue to present TO OTHER PEOPLE, by either God or some people God inspired to share the truth with those other people, because all that matters to God is what YOU have received and that you continue to receive every word from God, that is presented to YOU by either God or the people God inspires. For example, I am or at least claim to be inspired by God to know that Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, and now that I have shared this information with YOU it is now up to YOU to FIND OUT whether or not Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, by asking God for His assurance of that truth, and if YOU never act on that information, by asking for God’s assurance, YOU will never know if God truly inspired Joseph and that Joseph was a prophet of God… which means YOU will never know that much about God, by knowing what God has done through Joseph, and not only that, but YOU will also never know the truth about any of the other things God has revealed through Joseph. And btw, if there is or ever will be any other way for YOU to find out the truth God has already revealed through Joseph without you learning more about Joseph or by the teachings God inspired Joseph to speak and write, once God assures you of ALL of the truth, you will know the same truths that Joseph taught… because Joseph also gained his knowledge from God, and you would then be “one” in agreement with Joseph... and God and me and everybody else who knows those same truths that Joseph taught.

I just want to make sure everyone knows the corrections to the Bible came as revelations from God. I don't care one way or another whether Joseph saw sentences in his mind or chose his own words to express the revelation, as long as we agree it was an inspired translation (which I think we do). In other words, Joseph didn't just decide how best to rephrase the Bible in light of restored truths. It was a Spirit-guided, inspired process. I was simply trying to point out that Joseph Smith had (and continued to develop) his own style of writing and speaking, just like any and every other person did and does whether or not they were or are a prophet. Or in other words, when we read the words of Paul in the Bible, those are actually the words of Paul, just like the words of Peter, and James, and John, and Moses, and Isaiah, and Nephi, and Mormon, and Moroni, and Shakespeare, and me, and you, and everybody else has their own words they use to think with while speaking and writing to others. And through it all, as we read or hear the words that people choose to use to express the thoughts they have or had, we can all know whether or not anyone was or is inspired by God through the power of the Holy Ghost... as the Holy Ghost helps us to interpret their words and see any and all truth that is in them. But yes, to make this a little simpler for some people, I do know that Joseph Smith was inspired by God to write and speak and interpret the writings of others through the power of the Holy Ghost, and I also know he received priesthood or authority from God that was given to him by others who had priesthood or authority from God and laid their hands upon him to give him that priesthood or authority from God, and I also know he received inspiration and revelations given through thoughts and visions and personal appearances from our Lord and His authorized servants who received their authority from God... directly. Now there, does that just about cover it for you? And the main point I was trying to make is that we ALL need to receive inspiration or revelation from God to know whether or not anything is true... and NOT simply accept what "people" speak or write... even if their words are recorded in a collection of books that "other people" decided should be included within that collection of books... because to do that is pretty much the same as simply accepting the words that I speak or write declaring that I have received knowledge from God if I had been living and speaking and writing during the time Paul or Isaiah or Jeremiah or any other prophet of God lived and spoke and wrote their words and some people put my words in some books. Or in other words, anyone and everyone can know whether I am speaking the truth by receiving an assurance from God, just as anyone and everyone can also know whether or not anyone else is speaking the truth by receiving an assurance from God to assure them it is the truth. And Yes, I do know that the truth in the thoughts expressed in the Bible and Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants and in the words of our living prophets and apostles today were and are inspired by God, and I give them the reverence they're due... whether anyone else thinks I do or not.

Our Lord authorized Joseph to retranslate the Bible, giving him inspiration and revelation to know how. Our Lord did not say something like "now that you're here in Matthew chapter 3, put in exactly these words: " "... ... because our Lord always wanted Joseph to ask Him for guidance, and as Joseph did he came to know God through the thoughts that God gave him... as evidenced by Joseph's own choice of words. And btw, AK, we're just clashing because of some of the words we are choosing, and I think we are basically very much in agreement. :)

LDS believe that Joseph Smith was inspired to re-translate the Bible (which was more of him receiving direct revelations from God, correcting errors in the Bible). You and I/Ray/others can't even agree on what the verses should say, let alone how to interpret them. The verse above should read: "And all Scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (JST 2 Tim. 3:16). See the difference between saying, "All scripture is given by inspiration," and, "And all scripture given by inspiration..." The first dictates the ridiculous view that the Bible is perfect and infallible (oooooh boy). … or that the Holy Bible contains some words which aren’t scripture, because those words weren’t given by inspiration from God. Joseph simply clarified this scripture thinking his retranslation would be easier for us to understand, but in essence all scripture IS given by inspiration from God, otherwise it is not or should not be called scripture. Yes, another rephrase on what I just said. Again, Joseph was merely trying to clarify this scripture in his own words thinking he could make it easier for us to understand it. The holy scriptures are infallible as long as they are interpreted correctly, otherwise they will give some people who don’t interpret them correctly the wrong ideas… which was never God’s intention.

I’m saying that Alma was giving the opinion that God inspired Him to have, just like every other prophet of God spoke or wrote as they were inspired. Yes, and those were the words of Peter as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. And regardless of your private interpretation of what Peter actually meant by his words, we can truthfully interpret them only with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Yes, ALL scripture is very profitable for those purposes, as Paul was telling Timothy in his own words. Heh, I just told you they are two different “things”, although the soul does include the body. As you keep studying the Holy Bible you will hopefully see that each prophet has his own style of writing, and the words Paul chose to use expressed the thoughts he received as he was inspired with inspiration from God. Says you. But I know from God and the inspiration He gives me that those words are true as long as I interpret them correctly. I already gave you some by interpreting the scriptures you gave me, but if you want more, there are more to be found, at that link I gave you to our Topical Guide on the Soul. Says you, again. And while you can believe whatever you want to believe, I will get my inspiration from God. Heh, very interesting. So does mine. And yet we are not in agreement. So either one of us or possibly both of us only think our testimony is from God… otherwise God is telling us two different things that seem to conflict with each other... and my God is not a God of confusion. Yes, and just as the apostles received their testimony from God, you and I should also receive our testimony and assurances from God… and then not only will we know that Jesus is the Christ, but we will also know the truth of ALL things as they are made known to us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Thanks Tommy. My background does have a lot to do with the person I am, and I’m happy you’re not offended with my efforts to try to help you. :) And btw, the reason Hell is eternal is because God needs some place to put His wicked children, or those who don’t really want to love Him and accept what He tells them. And No, even if God could totally annihilate those of us who don’t truly love Him and accept what He tells us, He really and truly doesn’t want to do that, because He loves us all enough to leave us alone if we don’t really want to be with Him or have the happiness that He can help us know how to find. … except that we all can’t stay here, because this is to become a righteous planet where God and those who truly love Him can come. … so those of us who are wicked will still be resurrected, with their spirits never again to be separated from their bodies, and then sent somewhere else to live forever without God... just as they are doing right now.