Ray

Quite frankly, I believe that is one of the biggest problems for those who don’t but want to know God, because people who will put their trust in the Bible simply because some other people are putting their trust in the Bible don’t have or learn to put their trust in God by gaining a personal witness from Him to assure them that He inspired those people who wrote the Bible, which is the only way they and anyone else can ever learn the truth of anything.Or in other words, to come at this point from another angle, to take the inspiration of the Bible for granted makes just as much sense as taking the inspiration of the Book of Mormon for granted, or as taking the inspiration of the Doctrine & Covenants for granted, or as taking the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Joseph Smith for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Paul for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Peter for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Moses for granted, or as taking the inspiration of Abraham for granted, or of taking the inspiration of you or me or other "religious teachers" for granted, etc, etc, etc… without learning the truth from God concerning whether or not He actually inspired any of those people to speak or write what they said in any of their "talks" or writings. True. But not everyone who hears the Words of God knows those Words have come from God, even when they can look and see and hear those words come directly from His own lips as they did from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was and is God Himself, much less from others He inspires to speak or write through the power of the Holy Ghost.And btw, if you really want to know what He meant, try reading D&C section 1, or again, while trying to listen to God. Good, because that is the way to learn the truth, but if everyone was actually doing that don’t you think everyone would be in agreement concerning what God is communicating and has already communicated through the power of the Holy Ghost? Clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion. Yes, but the same Spirit can also give inspiration to others to help them know the truth of ALL things. And even if the Bible was the only collection of writings that were inspired by God, as you and some other “Christians” tell others, why can’t all of “Christendom” come to agreement concerning what those persons who wrote the Bible were actually inspired to write? Or what they actually meant?Again, clearly there must be some reason why all of “Christendom” is in confusion. My understanding of what Traveler meant is that those who have ears to hear will hear ALL the words of God, and the reason why some don’t, or why we don’t all agree with each other, is because those who don’t receive ALL the words of God are accepting other sources of information… otherwise everyone, or all individuals, would be “one” in knowing the truth they have learned from ALL of the words of God.And btw, as I said before, you really don’t need to learn from me, or hear what I have to tell you, because you and me and everyone else should be putting our trust in God…. and the most important message we should be sharing with others should be concerning how to get Faith from God… especially with those who simply "don’t know" how very important that is.

Btw, to those who have trouble understanding what Traveler was saying, try reading his words again while paying special attention to my highlights. We can shout all we want that we are right, and others wrong, but, those with confidence will speak simply, with calm assurance, and allow the Almighty to woo those "who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches." If I can get the time I would like to start a thread on this subject. Not that I really disagree with what PC tells us here – but I think he has missed the most important point. In a number of posts I have referenced the ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms. The scriptures tell us that G-d’s organization, both in heaven and on earth, is a Kingdom. The ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms is the law of Kingdoms understood at the time and place when the scriptures were written and is the context of understanding basic doctrines of Kingdoms from Abraham through Jesus Christ. When someone says that Jesus or G-d is king this is the standard measuring rod that defines what the ancients really meant as “a king”. In our day and time, most of us live in and understand representative democracy and have no experience at all with kingdom societies – even within our religious organizations that we may erroneously call a kingdom. This is because, in reality, we think of religions and religious societies in terms of the societies to which we are custom and experienced; as in terms of doctrines that “suit” us or that “appeal” to us in democratic societies. With the idea that if we have the spirit of G-d in our heart the correct doctrines will suit or appeal to us... I believe this is a gross oversimplification of the ancient concept and the reason that many religions and sects of many religions in their sincere diversity would demonstrate this error. I am not saying to believe this makes you wrong – just that many sincere seekers of divine enlightenment somehow find divergent paths to “oneness” with G-d, employing this method, in part because they oversimplify the scriptures and the intended meaning based on what suits them or appeals to them. There is no such diversity among loyal citizens of a kingdom – or the covenant children of G-d. Within a kingdom there is no room for individual understanding or private interpretation of divine doctrines, laws and ideas in terms of concepts that suit or appeal to specific individuals. There is no “wooing” in the sense that competing servants could espouse their opinions, which the populist was left to choose which wooer is the best orator or demonstrated the most charisma to suit them. We may operate today, based on our opinions or beliefs in our democratic society but in a kingdom, such thinking is treasonous. Though it may sound harsh to us in our society, anciently punishments were considered quite standard and common in dealing with those claiming or pretending to be appointed vassals or servants of the supreme Suzerain but were not appointed or that were appointed but overstepped their appointments... (remember that Jesus said he did nothing but that he was commanded by his father). The punishment was the same and applied both to those that taught the law correctly but were not properly appointed by the Suzerain or those appointed by the Suzerain that taught according to their own ideas. Both were considered traitors (spelling corrected from traders) of the Suzerain (a concept lost in modern thinking) if they were not put to death or sometimes prior to being put to death their eyes were burned out (as per Samson - spelling corrected from Sampson) and those that supported or listened to them – their ears were burned out. Thus the saying, “those that have eyes to see and ears to hear” is in reference not so much to those that understood correct or proper doctrine as much as those that are loyal to the Suzerain and his appointed servant vassals of the kingdom. The Traveler And btw, Traveler, I appreciate your post and thoughts, as expressed in your own words. :)

Tommy, Isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the Bible is true and how those scriptures should be interpreted, etc? I believe it is only the "wooing of the Holy Spirit" which can assure me (and all of us) of the truth... although some people do seem to be satisfied by the assurances of other "persons'.

Raleigh is where they filmed the Andy Griffith and Mayberry RFD TV shows, isn't it? (those are some more of my favorite TV shows btw, and the family of the returned missionary who "converted" me to the Church is also living there. :) ) And btw, we had a really nice long bike path close to where we last lived too, and I will miss having that close by, but the town where we are moving to also has a nice path that follows the Columbia river... and the "downtown" of that small town is only 3 miles from our house. :) That's sad news about the "bad" school near you, though, and I can see why school is important, but you could choose to home teach them or have them home taught by some of your neighbors. Heh, anyway. I'm glad you're a "country" girl (in your heart). :)

I understood what you meant by “biblical references”, but you (and we) can still find more references to that topic at the scripture site I gave you than you seemed to be able to find by “doing your best” to look them up, but perhaps that was because you weren't familiar with how to use that site to help you look them up. So maybe, just maybe, I can teach you how to use that site, although you still don’t need ME to teach you this because you can learn with help from God. Anyway, if you (and we) will go to that scripture site again, http://scriptures.lds.org/, you (and we) can see those scriptures are divided according to the different “books” they’re in, ie, the Old Testamant, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. And if you (and we) will look below the link to the scriptures that are in the Pearl of Great Price, you (and we) can see there are some links to “STUDY HELPS”, which includes a Topical Guide…which is the Topical Guide I was referring to in my other post. And if you (and we) will click on that link, ie, the link to the Topical Guide, you (and we) can see some letters of the Alphabet with links to different topics, with the letters of the alphabet corresponding to the first letter of the word or phrase referring to the topic you (and we) can look up to study those topics. For example, you (and we) can look up the scriptures on the topic of “Premortal Existence” by clicking on the letter P, which will send you (and us) to a list of topics that start with the letter P, and by scrolling down that list you (and we) can find that the topic of “Premortal Existence” is actually referenced in the Topical Guide as “Premortal Life”, with some other suggested topics which are related to that topic. And btw, when you (and we) click on the link to “Premortal Life” that is in our Topical Guide, you (and we) can see that the suggested topics are the only source of scriptures, which is actually trying to teach you (and us) that you (and we) should use other titles for this topic and look at those other topic titles to find the actual scriptures. For example, by clicking on the suggested topic titled “Man, Antemortal Existence of”, you (and we) can be taken to a list of scriptures which can lead us to the knowledge of how or in what manner Man (all of us) existed before being mortal, with insights from those scriptures… and I can count 19 different scriptures or scripture passages which are in the Bible alone. (12 in the list and 7 at the bottom suggesting that we should "See also" ...) And I also suggest that you study, ponder and pray about the scriptures in the other suggested topics for this topic, entitled “Council in Heaven”, “Spirit Body”, and “Spirit Creation”, and any other suggested topic titles you (and we) can find as you (and we) search those other topics... and receive inspiration from God. I just showed you the Bible contains at least 19 different scriptures or scripture passages on this topic, while also showing you (and others) how to find them, so the statement you just made was based on a lack of all true knowledge about it.And btw, so are most of your other comments, but instead of trying to spend my life trying to teach you, apparently to little or no avail, I’ll suggest you (and others) learn from the God, and the scriptures, and other prophets of God who are living today... who write as well as read the "thoughts" that God can give to them (and all of us).

...but some will say we can have eternal life in the future, thinking we did not have that in the past, but with a little more thinking they will then think it's at least possible that we did live in the past... which will then hopefully prepare them to receive some faith from God as He assures them that the possibility is not only possible, but true. With hope, faith, and love from God we have everything we need to know what is true. :)

Good. Glad to hear it. I was only trying to "judge" you by what you have said, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with that. If you mean that we both have the same potential, I can totally agree with that too. :) Yes, we have all sinned at times in our lives, but we should NOT be "sinners" any more. A sinner is someone who doesn't repent, when they know they are sinning against God.And we are capable of making good judgments, when our decisions are based on good knowledge. And we should not be hippocrites, by not living what we teach, and not repenting when we know to do better. Of course He isn't, and I never said He was. Why did you think saying that was necessary? Heh, you're one who started this "debate", by asking if we agreed with what you said about our Father... which should have been posted in the Gospel forum. :)

Why are you waiting until your child is out of school?...there are good schools in the country too. :) And your money will go "farther" than living in the city, if you do all the things you can do. :) And btw, I'll be driving 20 minutues to catch an express bus, which will take another 40 minutes to get me to work (with lots of time for good reading!). And that's about the same amount of time it takes me from the suburbs, at least from where we were last living. Right now we're staying with some friends (in their basement "apartment") until our house is finished. But when we move we'll then have a very nice 2400 sq ft single level (triple wide manufactured) house on 2 acres (mostly flat)... with a wonderful view of trees and the river below from 1350 feet high! :) And we'll have spent less than the selling price of our last house including the features we're adding! :) Heh, but I'm not trying to change YOUR plans for you. This is simply the best way for us, and we are also empty nesters now... but I would have done it sooner if I'd given it some more careful consideration. :)

Yes, I totally agree with all of that, Christos, but I wonder if you really do. There seem to be some things you do not agree with, as you've said in some other posts.

How bout just saying the gnomes were translated, and that they'll be coming back with our Lord? That way you won't be admitting to "stealing" if they find them in your yard. :)

prisonchaplain, I’m going to point out a few things for you now because you still don’t seem to know our (LDS) doctrine, even though we (LDS) have discussed some of these points several times in our (LDS) posts, and I thought you understood these things… but I am NOT doing this with the idea that I can convince of any of these truths I am stating… I’m simply going to state our (LDS) beliefs because you still don’t seem to know what we (LDS) believe. #1: There are several “biblical references” which refer to our (Man's) premortal existence, and you can find those for yourself or with our [LDS] Topical Guide… at http://scriptures.lds.org/ #2: We (LDS) do not believe and never have claimed to have been created as begotten children of God in the flesh, if you’re referring to us as children of God that He created by creating our flesh and blood. #3: We (LDS) do claim to have been created by God as children of God as spirits… and there are also some “biblical references” which can help you to see this point. #4: We (LDS) can see what you do not believe, as we (LDS) share our beliefs, but it should not be considered a “nonsense” question to question your own ideas… because by asking you those questions we’re hoping to help you receive an answer … which is not a nonsense purpose if we can help you achieve that goal. #5: Our “LDS position” doesn’t "require" that humans have an eternal premortal existence, our “LDS position” is simply our (LDS) belief that the scriptures reveal knowledge from God on this issue... through personal revelations which have been given to us, which first came to some other prophets of God.#6: We (LDS) do not believe and never have stated our Heavenly Father is an evolving God, like us… because He’s already achieved His state of perfection that is known as God by Man. #7: Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit so they could become more like God than they were… and they never could have become more like God without a knowledge of good and evil.#8: When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they actually did become more like God, so the lie that Satan told them was NOT in saying they would become more like God, but in saying they wouldn’t die… and yes there are some scriptures to show that they became more like God after eating that fruit. #9: We (LDS) don’t claim that we don’t need God even though we are now more like Him, and we also don't believe we will ever come to the point where we won't need Him, or love Him, any more. #10: When Adam and Eve “rebelled” they had already received their independence from God, and there is nothing at all that is “bad” or “wrong’ with being independent persons… but with our independence it is best to follow God by choosing to become more like God, otherwise we won’t achieve our state of perfection by becoming like those who are God. #11: We (all of Man) are already godlike as children of God and with our knowledge of good and evil, as prophets through scriptures can tell you, and we (all of Man) may become to be more like God as we choose to follow our Savior.#12: We (all of Man) are already of the same essence as God because we (all of Man) are literally God’s children, and the essence of "us" is also eternal, but we will only live as God now lives by choosing to follow our Savior. #13: Through the atonement of Jesus Christ we (all of Man) may become co-equal partners and joint-heirs with God through Jesus Christ… not His servants, not His subjects, but joint-heirs of all He (Jesus Christ) has when we have become exactly like Him. #14: Absurdities to those who believe like you, perhaps, but not to those who can learn to become like God, and we (LDS) believe that is possible for all who seek the truth and a knowledge of God through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ... instead of accepting what Satan or Man tries to say in his role or work as a deceiver.Or in other words, prisonchaplain, I’m simply trying to tell you that you should seek the truth by learning directly from God, and I’m NOT telling you to believe anyone other than God as they tell you what they think or believe … although I do believe it might do some good for you to know what we (LDS) truly believe, and how we interpret the scriptures, so you can then commune with God about what we believe and listen to what He will tell you. #15: Man was created as the offspring of God, and many of us are becoming more like God… but No, we won’t ever be our Father in heaven, who we (Man) often refer to as God. #16: Man only appears “a little lower than the angels” to fulfill the plan of redemption. Or in other words, all of our spirits (the spirits of Man) were created by God in heaven (the Celestial kingdom) before we came to this Earth… and we may all become to be even more like God by accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ. And btw, if we could see our spirits, as they were created in heaven, we would all see that we had glory before we came here, but we will lose our glory and not get it back if we reject what God tells us through Jesus, and what Jesus tells us through the Holy Ghost... when we will have then become what can then be called either a prophet of God, or a prophetess. #17: Jesus is uniquely the only one of the children of our Father who was created by our Father in the flesh, with no mortal Father like ours, but all of us who were created as male children of our Father were spiritually created as sons by our Father… and daughters are like their Mother.#18: All of us, all of Man, were and are co-eternal with God as intelligence … but we will only develop to be co-equal with God if we accept ALL intelligence through the gospel. #19: All of us, or all of Man, can become what God is through the gospel, and we already are in essence like God because God is literally our Progenitor, who created us as male and female, or in the images of God our Father and Mother, and God is trying to raise us to become like They are as do and believe what God tells us by our own free will and choices. #20: We [LDS] already know you don’t agree with these points, but we (LDS) still do. Or in other words, while you and others of Man say we aren't or can't, we (LDS) say we are and can... because God has told us those truths. #21: All offspring created by any creator are inherently or "essentially” like their creator, although not immediately after they are first created because they have not grown up yet… but all offspring can become just like their creator by fulfilling their full measure of creation... or by becoming as perfect as their creator.And btw, I understand how you can get “lost” by knowing a creator can create something that is NOT like the creator, but in this regard our Creator did Create us in a different sense than His other creations… and He can personally assure you of that just as He has already assured us that He did. For instance, to put this in more “human” terms for you, although you as a parent can create a child as well as a work of art, like a fly on a fishing line, your most glorious creation is your offspring, regardless of any of your other creations. Anyway, that’s it from me. I know I can’t convince you of the truth, and I'm not even trying to do that, but it would be nice if you’d at least get your facts straight concerning what [LDS] really believe… and for that I'll recommend you to the the General Authorities of our church and the missionaries they can and do authorize. Heh, after posting my message I saw you post this… … so I guess I should explain what I meant.Tommy, if you know anything about God who can help to teach you ALL truth, you should also know that there is somebody called Satan, whose work is to deceive and lure us away from the truth by trying to spread false doctrine… and the reason any of us have a hard time knowing the truth is because of the influence of Satan who works against us, by working both directly and indirectly in all of our lives to keep us from knowing the truth. Okay now? That’s all I meant. To know the truth we must learn from God, because there are many people who have been deceived by Satan and the precepts of men he has influenced… and I’m not saying that the deceived persons are bad, or evil, but that is the reason they don’t know the truth. Heh, and whether you believe me or not, that was what I actually meant, when I said what I said to Traveler. And btw, yes, I do know which side of the line you are on now on some of the things you believe, and I know I have some beliefs from God that you haven't learned from Him (yet, I hope), so I’m trying to help you know ALL that is true, by telling you WHO to believe… instead of any other "person" who has some beliefs, who could and can be deceived, and is spreading some deceptions they truly believe... by spreading false beliefs from Satan... even though they "think" they're from God. Heh, anyway. Take care now, brother. You really don't need to learn anything from me. :)

Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :) And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say. How has this "father" told you that it is true? I just want to know because if it is this "warm feeling in the bosem" thing again I think I'll go mad! I get warm feelings in my bosem when I listen to Beethoven, when I read good literature, when I am very pleased. So how do you feel when God speaks to you, or assures you of the truth? How do I feel? Humbled, in awe, reverence, humility, and above all, Fear. But how does that "feel"? Try to describe the feelings... without putting a label on them. And try to explain how you know that's from God, and not the influence of Satan. Why? Is that some sort of unspoken rule that I'm expected to follow? I'm waiting to see how you'll describe those feelings before I try to do that for you... and you haven't done that yet.

Because even some of us who are so-called "Christians" have been deceived by Satan. Now come on. Admit it. You already knew that, didn't you? :) Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :) And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say. How has this "father" told you that it is true? I just want to know because if it is this "warm feeling in the bosem" thing again I think I'll go mad! I get warm feelings in my bosem when I listen to Beethoven, when I read good literature, when I am very pleased. So how do you feel when God speaks to you, or assures you of the truth?

Amen to the fact that I can say nothing to help you to see the truth as I do, but I haven't lost even a bit of my faith in what He's assured me is true. And yes, I know, you will say the same thing too. So now what? What's next? Where do we go from here? If we both keep believing the things we believe we will not both know the truth. p.s. If you didn't notice, I just disagreed with your thought here... ...if you meant we can help them to see the truth, or maybe while that works for those who are receptive, it seems to do nothing for those who are not.And now to respond to some other comments you made, which I hope will somehow help you: I believe God is ALWAYS prepared to give us His answer, if we will simply and sincerely seek Him... and I don't believe it is God who is delaying people or making people wait. I try, but be careful. God is not pleased with those who teach false doctrine. Yes, we agree on that thought, but we do not agree on God’s word, because you seem to totally reject any of His words which are not written in the Bible... and we also have different interpretations about the words which actually were. When do you think He’ll do that, or why isn’t He doing that NOW? Or why don't we need to ALWAYS ask Him to assure us of the truth?

Yes. I know. We clearly do not agree. Now what?

The spirit that was in Him was His, not our Father's or the Holy Spirit. The latter are two different people who are also God just as much as He was, and is, and always will be forever. And as we become like Him, and our Father, as we are guided by the Holy Spirit, we will all be "one" just as much as they are, and always will be forever. But you just can't see that, can you? How else can I possibly help you? You think you know what is really the truth as much as you think I do... and yet we are not one together.

Heh, I give up. What more can I say to you? I know the truth and I know that I know it, but I can do nothing to assure you I do. And Yes you too will be blessed by all you can do as you rely on Him. :)

HE healed the sick. HE cast out evil spirits. HE raised the dead. HE rose from the dead. HE was our God.And if you really don't believe that, then you really don't know who He was.

Okay, let's see if another rephrase might help you to "see" by giving you some more to pray about. God has always been God, and God has never been Man, but Man may become what is known as God by becoming who and what God is. Or, in other words, God has always been God, and God has never been Man, but our Father became what is known as God, even though He was once like us, or Man. Or, in other words, God has always been God, and God has never been Man, but Man may become to be known as God by becoming as "unique, all-knowing, all-powerful, infinite, without beginning or end, and unchanging"... exactly like God is now. ...and once you know who God really is you will know we can be like Him.

Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :)And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say.

Why? And in what sense? And do they also think Jesus has a limitation? Why is because a body is defining--it marks us in a place. There is a part of me that is here and not there. Likewise, though it could be argued that God's spirit is everywhere, there is still a part of God that is confined to a particular place. Just as we are here. Or do you think I have no control of this “place” because I am sitting where I am? That’s a misinterpretation of scripture, because He was still our God on Earth. And He still had every one of His “powers” though He appeared in form as Man. That’s good, but you still need to receive an assurance from God so you can know this truth.

Nothing we do, and nothing we can ever do, will diminish who and what He is.And to put simply. He is really our Father... but we won't all become like Him.

I'm looking forward to raising our own chickens, and am working to prepare the facilities. The fresh eggs and meat are said to taste better than any we can buy from a store... and we'll be that much closer to independence. :) We already have our own well, and next year we'll have a big garden. The land we just bought is still in development, but we can already breathe better air. :)

"If you <discuss> it, they will come." ... borrowed from 'Field of Dreams' :)

One of favorite TV shows is 'The Walton's' (we watch the DVDs), and another one of my favorites is 'Little House on the Prarie' (we have those DVDs too). But I really don't have "a" favorite, because it depends on what mood I'm in. And btw, from what's available on TV these days, my favorites are 'Smallville' and 'Monk' and some Home & Garden programs (the ones showing how to make and grow things... especially woodcrafts and plants for our gardens)... not counting BYU-TV broadcasts featuring our prophets and apostles who talk about God and His gospel and living. :)