Ray

I've been told by many people recently that I look a lot like George Clooney (sp?), and when I was younger I was told I looked a lot like Bruce Springstein, although I think they look a lot more like me. :) And if you were to ever see me, I hope you will also see me as me. :)

Does this mean you're staying? Yes, until I leave, and I’m trying to leave as soon as I can… which I think will come soon after I share some more truths... I would like to see you see some more truths. :) Again, it's subtle...but when there is a tight-knit group within a community, and there are aspects of that community which remain hidden...well, fallen humanity can get paranoid. Because they are fallen or what? And why should outsiders know everything about things that can only be learned spiritually from God... when some insiders are also still trying to learn? Once again--and Snow may have refined this for me--it's probably more the secular or non-spiritually-engaged folk who are discomforted by tightly-committed religious groups. I think you agree that it’s good vs. evil, and you’re just not using those words. I think for religious people, the opposition is more related to beliefs and practices, perceived orthodox vs. heresy. The Work and the Glory seemed to focus on the non-LDS fears of this bloc of people and how they might vote, how they might 'take over' etc., vs. purely theological opposition. Are you saying that when people actually practice or live by the principles of God’s true religion, something causes other “bad” people to try to oppose them… kinda like how some people might be opposed to being led by a prophet who is leading with guidance from God? So which is worse, a heretic or an apostate? I think they’re both trying to teach things or support things our Lord doesn't approve of, if they’re heretics or apostates against God or the people God inspires with true religion. Yes, those who are against God can be inspired and used by Satan to poison relationships against God and God’s people. I think it can happen both ways. One of the LDS posters at hannity.com did point out a few things that LDS settlers may have done that were "not helpful." I never said that all LDS are good or perfect people, but we generally try to help people instead of trying to hurt them, as those people actually hurt members of our Church. We (LDS) also believe in both sides of the issue, or heaven and hell, too, Tommy. We simply believe everyone will actually hear the true gospel at some point… in contrast to the idea taught by some people saying those who never hear the gospel in this life are totally out of luck, and will never hear the true gospel and be able to benefit from God’s blessings.. I just pray that when you do finally leave us, you'll be going to a better place. I have no doubts about that. But as soon as I leave, I won’t know about you and some other people here, and I’d like to see y’all see some more truths. :) But yes, I know, it’s vanity, and I probably won't get to see that, but I’d still like to do some more to try to help you. :)

Heh. Whoo boy!!! Try to be more concise a little bit, would you? First of all, there never was a beginning for any of us, including our Father or the Fathers of Elohim, because all of us have always existed, and there never will be any more of us… because intelligence cannot be created. While discussing that point you seemed to go off on a tangent thinking all of us didn’t exist, or at least not as distinct personalities, when in fact we believe that we actually did… because intelligence is in fact what we were and still are, in essence, before we ever came to be where we are. Or in other words, our individual “intelligence” has always existed in eternity, and we were then what we are right now, although we were not then as “perfect” or as “one” in intelligence and other attributes as those who are perfect like God. Or in other words, the process of “growing up” involves becoming “one” with ALL intelligence and at that point we’ll then know all there is, and yes it is possible to know all intelligence, and become totally perfect like God... if we contiinue to learn from God throughout eternity. And yes, when we do that, we will also know every Father and Son, because there is only so much of intelligence in existence, or else God couldn’t have all true knowledge of intelligence, to see all things as they truly are and will be. And btw, if you didn’t follow all that, keep seeking intelligence through an assurance from God, and if you still don’t get it while you are still here you’ll still have some more time to know God… as long as you accept and do what He tells you... as you try to become perfect like God. And yes, I also still don't know about everything yet, but I hope to keep learning from God. :)

Not essential to salvation, Ray--to our "entry into the Celestial Kingdom," the title of this string. I say it because, as I said elsewhere, most Christians expect to see most other Christians in heaven. Most Calvinists expect to see most Arminians in heaven. Most in the Assemblies of God expect to see most Baptists in heaven. And yes, I expect to see one of my faithful Church of Christ volunteers in heaven--even if he's not willing to play his guitars in church on Sundays. Well, guess what. You will. But you won’t see our Father in heaven unless you do and believe what He tells you through Jesus. Well, of course we never stop growing in truth. We want to get what we can right. When Jesus said that, he was, in context, referring to our loving our enemies. 1 Cor. 13 reminds that right now we see through the glass that is cloudy or dark, but when we see Jesus we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. I agree that we can’t learn everything about God and His ways in this life, but we can learn to know Him when we see Him, and those who do see Him will not be surprised that He is what He told them through revelation. Yes, I do, on some things, because I know the “theologians” at BYU are God’s prophets… with a prophet being defined as someone who receives knowledge from God, instead of simply relying upon what other people have taught them. And I wish you’d try to get it through your head that you don’t have to be a “theologian” to know God. And as a matter of fact, any theologian who is not a prophet of God does not know true knowledge from God. Or in other words, a college degree in “theology” is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God’s prophets, the sooner we’ll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God. As I told you before, a long time ago, you still seem to be basing most of your knowledge upon college, by thinking you know more than we “lay persons" know about God, when a “worldly” education is not at all necessary to gain any true knowledge from God. But it does help to get a "good job” in the world, though. Doesn’t it. Hello. My name is Ray. And I am addicted to LDS Talk.

If he's not too deaf or stubborn I'll take Him. My Lord will cover all of the costs. But if he's rebellious, and won't do his work, he's good for only how good he is. Btw, the worth of a soul is not priceless, because it's directly related to potential for excellence, and those who are willing are worth a far more (and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory) than those who don't want to be excellent. But he still has some time to come around.

Some people just have to learn the hard way, Winnie. Be thankful it wasn’t any worse… for either your daughter or your good little granddaughters, who still have our Father watching them. And be thankful this happened while your daughter is young, while hoping she will learn to do better. And for how this could happen, they were all her own choices, and she may need to learn to choose better. Some people feel an urge to try something new, not knowing those things are bad to begin with, and also not knowing the good that they have… until they can see they are losing or lost them, and then try to get those things back. I was once a wild kid with a lot of ideas when I was still young and naive. And only the love of our Lord and our Father could have saved such a wretch like me… and They are not still done with me yet. So just keep hanging in there, while doing your best for yourself and for others who are near in your everyday life. You never really know when your love will touch others in all the ways God can help us help them. I’ll pray that your daughter will see in all of her traveling how good a home with her family can be.

Love destroys fear and gives peace the world longs for but for some reason doesn't know how to make, so the world tries to get it by trying to incite fear while thinking God doesn't give it to take. Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow make love instead of war through the peace that we fake? Maybe we could give cookies to our neighbors around us, and then make the world shake as we bake. Hello. My name is Ray. I am addicted to LDS Talk. Thank you all very much for your time. :)

Hi Ray, I was just going through some old files on my computer and ran across our old LDSTalk photos. There was one of you and your family.... it was nice to see you all. Anyway, what are the last 3 or 4 books you read that are among the "best?" I'm always on the lookout for something to add to my list. Hello. My name is Ray. And I am addicted to LDS Talk. Heh, you still have that, do you? That was taken about a year after my wife and I first got married, after her (our) younger son graduated from seminary. And just so you know, I still remember what you look like, from that picture I saw of you and your wife on a cruise. Anyway, I’m only reading books written by prophets of the Church, because I think all those books are the “best”, and I’d guess you’ve already read the ones that I’m reading, since I just started reading seriously a little over 2 years ago… after I got my palm computer with a gospel library. The one I just read is “Doctrines of Salvation”, by Joseph Fielding Smith. And I’m reading it again, to pick up on more thoughts that I didn’t fully absorb the first time I read through it. Before that I read volume 1 of the discourses from President Hinckley, and I’ll be getting volume 2 at my next visit to the bookstore. (I was inactive for 10 years and missed most of those talks when he first gave them in conference or wherever) Before that I read 2 books from Hugh Nibley, “Abraham in Egypt” and “Temple and Cosmos”. Before that I read the discourses of Brigham Young, in a book of collected works on my palm. Before that I read the “Personal Writings of Joseph Smith”, written by a prophet and scholar from BYU. Before that I read the Comprehensive History of the Church, written by B.H. Roberts, and before that I read the ‘History of the Church’ written by the Prophet Joseph Smith and his scribes. Before that I can’t remember my order of reading, but I’ve read almost all in the gospel library. And all through the 17 years I’ve been a member of the Church, I’ve read a few others I can’t totally recall now, like ‘Jesus the Christ’, ‘Articles of Faith’, ‘Lectures on Faith’, ‘Mormon Doctrine’, ‘Marvelous Work and Wonder’, and most of the others we refer to as the “classics”. And btw, when I say prophets of the Church, I’m not referring to only the Presidents of the Church, but to all those I know who are and were prophets, and after I read what they wrote I know better about them and what they knew of God and His gospel and His church. :)

Hello. My name is Ray. And I am addicted to LDS Talk. Tommy, You’re on the verge of making a very good point here, but I think you still need to give it some more thought. What would it be that would make others uncomfortable around LDS and their (and my) worship of God? The fact that most LDS seem to have a “tight community” should not make good people uncomfortable, unless some aspect of what LDS are, or are not, would do harm or infringe upon the good in society. Should a person worshipping God be uncomfortable around LDS if LDS are also worshipping God, or at least worshipping God as well as other people who are also worshipping God as they do? How could good public servants and good leaders in other religions be so opposed to LDS and LDS religion, when even they do not agree with others and other religions, and to the point of doing evil to LDS people... when good people cannot be so evil. And to give you my answer, just in case you are interested, there was a war going on between the forces of good and evil... and that war is still going on, and those who are “evil” will always be opposed to those who are or are trying to be “good”. And btw, just in case you didn’t notice, from the movie or from the history of the Church, the LDS did and still don’t persecute others, not even others with a false knowledge of God… although we do try to help others know God, as much as we think we can help… but once others show they don’t want to know Him, we still do what we can as His church… because doing good to others, even those who persecute us, is what God would have us do as His church. p.s. And I'm still trying to break my addiction to this website, so pray that I'll someday be gone. :)

can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children? I've got to respond, because it's the kind of quote I might have said--and something I've been driving at for some time. The question "Which church is the right one?" is a question that has no answer--other than the holy catholic (read: universal) church of Jesus Christ. In other words, there is a remnant of true believers in MOST Christian churches. Ray asks, "How can this be so, since they teach different doctrines?" From my initial readings into the primary texts, and from viewing some LDS movies (hey--you can at least catch the flavor of the culture)--this is the very issue that young Joseph Smith found so distressing. The answer: The simple gospel can be understood by little children, but none of our theologians--including the ones at BYU--will ever have a total grasp on God's word--written or revealed in these latter days. So, those churches that anchor themselves in the simple gospel, will vary in their teachings far less than you imagine--and over issues that, while serious, are not essential. Not essential to what, or to who, and who are you to say that to others? If we believe we are to become as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, as our Lord gave that command to others, then we should be trying to learn ALL truth in our effort to become that perfect. So who is to say this truth is not essential, while that truth definitely is, if each truth can help us to know God better and become just as perfect as Him. And while I do know there are “true believers” in every walk and way to live life, who simply don’t know about certain truths because they don’t know where or how to find them, I also know we will all become “one” as we become more and more like God, and those who know the most truths on Earth are those who are and were in His church with inspiration and authority from God to share His truths with others... who can also receive inspiration and authority from God. And btw, I didn’t intend to beat that horse anymore but I felt “I’ve got to respond”, and now that I know this thought has been shared I’ll let the dead horse waste away. p.s. And to try to help control my "urge" in the future, I'll try to avoid even reading your posts.

Good, I'm glad to hear it. But that almost sounds like we don't agree on all things, so I'll hope we'll learn to agree with God, and tolerate each other until then. We use ours only when we go camping. The coals don't add good flavor. And we also have a fairly nice kitchen, so my wife likes to cook in there. Hmmm. A couple of days, huh. We might try that sometime, but we like our dry rub, although I'm willing to give it a chance. Heh. YAH! Is there any other way to grill meat??? Whatever will heat the coals. :)We actually have a Kirkland grill, and I'm not sure who makes those for Costco. You mean a big smoker? Yah, I'd like to have one of those too, but it's a little ways down our list. :)We also like to grill and pull our pork for sandwiches, using a crock pot to make it tender and juicy. :)

The purpose of life is... to live... the very best life there is. And to truly know God is to know how He lives, and there is and can be none better. Heh, so forget about the Jones', as far as keeping up with them, I'm trying to keep up with God. And everyone else who knows to do better should also be following God. :)

Heh, very well said, and I love what you eat, though on most days I try to eat healthier. And coming from Texas I think I do well to be eating more than meat and potatoes… thanks to loving and wonderful wife.On 3 or 4 days a week we eat a small bit of meat, with the meal made mostly from whole grains and fresh vegetables. And on most other days we’ll have only vegetables, with nuts or some beans for our protein. But when we eat STEAKS, we ALWAYS have Ribeye, with no gristle and a nice marble of fat, and the ones that we eat are better than in any restaurant because of the time and the trouble it takes – choice and cured at room temperature for about an hour before being grilled and rubbed with herbs and spices. Another one of my favorite meals is a big bowl of beans with grilled vegetables and buttered cornbread on the bottom (to get juicy) and on the side … with peach cobbler for dessert, made special by my wife, who knows what she’s doing in a kitchen. :)

Yes. With or without a cake. :)

Okay, one more time, Serg, since I know you won’t be satisfied with what I’ve already told you. There never was a first man, because men have always been, just as there never was a first god, because gods have always been. But was there ever a first man on this Earth? Yes, named Adam. I’d like to see that quote from Orson Pratt, without someone else’s interpretation, because in reality there is a true God and we can define Him as we know Him by our rational senses with inspiration from Him. Yes. Everything Joseph said in that quote is true. What problem do you have with it? Heh, the person who wrote these words simply failed to understand “Mormonism”, or perhaps he or she simply didn’t understand that not all things have a beginning. More evidence of the fact that this person is limited in his or her knowledge of God and our nature and religion. And to try to say this simply, nothing is bigger or better than God, whether God is a Father or a Son. Good going to this point, Serg. There is nothing wrong with your statements just quoted. All good to this point, except for what I think you are stating in saying that matter is out of God’s control, because God does in fact control matter. Pretty much everything you said in this statement is true too, except for your idea that there was a time before there was Elohim, or that other beings existed before Him… because Elohim has always been. Since you seem to have some misunderstandings of our doctrine, please specify what is actually being taught. Please rephrase this statement. It’s too garbled for me to translate it perfectly. The first cause of what? And btw, please don’t mention anything you have seen in the temple with outsiders again. Again, the first cause of what? Again, the first cause of what? There is no first cause to God, or Man, because we have always been… although there was a first God and Man on this Earth, and I'm sure you know whose those were. Again, the first cause of what? Please see my comments above, while seeking further light and truth from God. We go out together every Friday night, and I always help around the house. And yes, I know, when I ask her for a cake, she'll bake it very happily because I asked. And my wife is an excellent baker. :) ... but I also want you guys to give me a cake, for my going away present, before parting.

Oh. Yeah. Well. Uh. Sure. I love you too.

Okay. Come on, Shannon. Just tell me you love me now. Don't be cruel... to a heart that's tru HEH ue

Heh, why did you say that was funny? I simply want some cake, and preferably coconut cake.And Shannon, I want the real thing now and that counterfeit just doesn’t cut it. Serg, I suggest that you try to wrap your thoughts around the idea that some things have ALWAYS existed, which means there was NEVER a first cause for those things, because those things have ALWAYS been and NEVER were created. But was there a first cause which caused a planet to be created? Yes. And was there a first cause which caused us to be created as spirit children of God? Yes. But the elements and intelligence and all the other basic building blocks of all things were not created because those things have always been. And to say something more in response to your question I’ll give you these other ideas to think about: God does not create intelligence, because intelligence cannot be created, although intelligence can become “one” with other intelligence to become even more intelligent. You have heard someone say that the glory of God is intelligence, haven’t you? What did you think he meant by that while knowing that intelligence is light and truth? And btw, all those scriptures you quoted were from our Lord suggesting that we should reason with Him, not that you or I should only use our own reasoning or the reasoning of other men. And I still want some coconut cake. :) p.s. I'm giving you a link to some other ideas that will help as you reason with our Lord for INTELLIGENCE

I hope you're not putting too much trust in that assurance, shanstress, because I only buy, and read and study, the "best" books... and a work of fiction very simply isn't "best". It does sound like it could be used to make an entertaining movie, though, and I could see myself buying that. And btw, for those who might think I'm being rude, or whatever, I simply have a rule for my mind, which is, I only read books that are true, from the best, to help separate what is true from entertainment... although I also enjoy watching movies of true events.

Perhaps if you’ll think about trying to define what you mean when you say “First Cause”, for instance, by thinking about “First cause of what?”, God will help answer your question as you seek your answers from Him. To my understanding, there never was a beginning to everything, because some things have always been, so perhaps the question to ask God and think about is what first caused us to be God’s children. Can I have my piece of cake now please?

Okay. But I'd still like a coconut cake from somebody. :)

Yes, you are, shanstress, but other people are too, and God should agree with Himself.And the revelations you can receive are related to your stewardship, just as others can receive revelations for their stewardships. So those who have stewardships over families and other organizations can receive revelations from God to help with those stewardships. Hint: the key word is "stewardship". And btw, I love you. :)

I'm glad we agree, pushka. I also don't believe we should follow "man-made rules", although I do believe God gives rules (or instructions) to men on Earth telling them to pass them on to the rest of us. :) And btw, if you choose to disagree with me, that's your choice, and you're entitled to it, but I hope you'll learn and continue to learn from God and His prophets.

Okay, then without asking me, or anyone else but God, please explain how this statement… can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children? And if you try to tell me that God really doesn’t really care about what we believe and what we all do, then I’ll know better than to believe what you say. Ta ta. :)

Okay. I’ll try to clear this up for you. 1st question: Have you or have you not ever received a “burning in the bosom” from God? In one post you stated that you “never really got the “burning in the bosom” <from God>. 2nd question: Have you or have you not ever had a testimony <of truth from God>? In that post of yours you simply stated that you never “got the feeling” <from God> that you should stay in the Church, although you did get a feeling <from somebody, and you didn't say who> making you feel as if you should leave the Church, which is not a positive message, and anyone who knows Satan knows he’ll avoid declaring a truth by declaring lies and trying to divert our attention. And btw, when a latter day saint talks about receiving a “burning in the bosom” or a “testimony” from God, as God assures a latter day saint of the truth, we’re saying we have received, and know how to receive, an assurance from God telling us what is true… so don’t act all shocked and surprised when you hear a LDS say we know the truth as well as how to find out what is true, as if you don't understand what we're saying. And btw, if you have also received an assurance from God, you should also know how to find out what is true, so why ask me when you can ask God for the truth? Hmmmmmm??? :)