Ray

prisonchaplain, I’m going to try to respond to your response with some quick and simple statements, hopefully in an order which will help you to see my point, and viewpoint, instead of quoting the words we’ve already shared and could continue to share forever. #1: The only way to truly know a truth is to receive an assurance from God, and without God and the assurance He will give us no amount of reading or hearing or talking or seeing can truly assure us of anything. (And in case you don’t know it, some of us choose to simply accept an assurance from people other than God … but those of us who do that are not accepting that assurance from God…and that also includes accepting an assurance from people who wrote the Bible, who claim to be speaking for God, as well as those from other people who write or say what they say… while claiming to speak for God.) #2: If you really want to receive God’s assurance you should learn from God and those who claim to speak for Him, and you should always check with God about what anyone but God has to say. (And as far as I know, there is nobody here at LDStalk who is claiming to speak for God, although some of us here are very sure He has assured us of some truths.) #3: The fact that you are still here at LDStalk shows that you either don’t know the truth or don’t know how you can know it, or that you think some of us are speaking the truth and can teach others about how to know it … so once you accept my statements above, and know those statements are true, you’ll hopefully get serious about learning the truth and learning those truths from God… when your only desire will be to learn from God and do the things He says to do while teaching some others about how to know Him so they can do that too. Make sense now? Or in other words: Do you really want to learn from us and accept the things we tell you? Or... do you really want us to learn from you and accept the things you tell us? If so, why? Or what real good would any of that do for those who know we should all be learning from God? You're simply spinning your wheels if you keep going the way you're going. And btw, the answer to your last question is, No, but for YOU, Tommy, the answer is a definite, Yes. Or in other words, generally, if someone doesn’t accept the truth of the restored gospel and all the ordinances thereof here during their mortal life, simply because they never had the opportunity, then they will receive an opportunity in the spirit world to hear and accept it there… and all the ordinances will be done for them here just in case they accept them there. But in YOUR case, Tommy, since you have now heard the true gospel and are aware of at least some of the ordinances you need, the Celestial kingdom will be out of the question if you do not accept it all right here, so stop talking to us and listening to us and call those missionaries NOW… or PM one of us and give us your address and we’ll have them sent to you. Heh, and Yes, I am speaking as someone who is sure of these truths and is sure of how to know them. And that's it. Thanks for listening. I hope you will enjoy your weekend. :)

Why? And in what sense? And do they also think Jesus has a limitation?

Yes, we [LDS] do allow other people to worship "whatever" or "however" or "wherever" they want to worship, but there is certainly nothing wrong with helping other people find the truth when we see they don't know it or how to find it...and I believe God is well pleased when we do. ... but I certainly wouldn't suggest that others simply believe what I tell them, or what we [LDS] or anyone else (but God) tells them either... because the only way to know the truth is to personally ask God, who will then help to assure them of the truth... ...and if they don't accept that, then it's still up to them, but I'll still do what I can to help them... in the best way I know from all the ways I can think of, while asking God to help me to help them. For instance, if I was talking to some people who said God is some sort of a mysterious blob who floats around in space, except for Jesus who has a body, I'd try to help teach them the truth... by either asking them why they believe that or trying to tell them how to find out if what they believe is really the truth... and I'll continue to try to teach them until they stopped listening to me... and I believe God would do the same for them too. But yes, I know, some people take the truth to be "hard", but those who really want it and are willing to look for it will love us... because they'll know we helped teach them about how they can find it in the only way we can really find out. :)

PC, I sure that I don't need to tell you but that's just not a true statement. If all official would were done under divine revelation and inspirations, then there would never be any mistakes or less than optimal choices made. While we believe that our leaders earnestly seek and recieve guidance, obviously they don't always get it or act on it correctly. Word to the Wise: Proper interpretation is very important, and it is not good to find fault for words... ...or in other words... It is very important that we seek inspiration (and even ask questions) to know how to truly interpret someone's thoughts from their words... ...or in other words... You didn't understand me, Snow, although you thought you truly did, while reading what I said in my words.

Heh, how is a revelatory confirmation from God not a revelation from God?And why wouldn’t you consider those thoughts to be scripture if you simply took time to write them down? I didn’t say you aren’t doing anything good. In fact, I’ve told you several times that you are doing a LOT of good works. But the work that you’re doing is the work of mere Man, and is not the work of God.Or in other words, (and I know I’ve said this to you before, in other words), when we do any work, that work is our work, unless we have been authorized to do that work by others … when our work then becomes our work and their work, because we are doing that work with their authorization … but we can’t simply assume that whatever we do is authorized by others, including God… even if God has authorized other people to do that work at some other time in history, or now. Or in other words, to put this in an example for you: You have received authority to do your "job" by the State of Washington and the leaders of your “church”, and I cannot assume to have authority to do that, even if I know how to do whatever you can do just as well or even better than you can. Or in other words, if you want to receive authority to do work for God, you must receive that authority from Him or from other people He has authorized to authorize you … and you can't receive that authority simply by knowing other people were authorized to do the work that they did for God. Yes, but God speaks to us in a “still, small voice”, so I’m trying to be as quiet as I can.... and the fact that God may speak to you and tell you the truth doesn't give you any authority from God.

Thank you for your time, Traveler, and I’m glad we agree, which is why I said the Telestial and Terrestials kingdoms could also be considered the kingdoms of Hell… at least to those who want total freedom. And regarding the idea of being able to go on to higher kingdoms, I recommend reading and thinking about what Joseph Fielding Smith said in his book called “Doctrines of Salvation”… and there is no better time to do that than the present. :)

Close, but not quite. I’m saying that our Lord has authorized His prophets and apostles to proclaim the gospel to the world and authorize other people (missionaries) to help them in their work, and that all the guidance necessary to make the decisions about who to authorize and where those authorized persons should go and what those authorized persons should proclaim is given through direct revelation from God through Jesus Christ, both in scripture and personal revelation given daily to prophets and apostles who are authorized to speak and act for God.But no, I’m not saying that someone who is authorized to proclaim the gospel (a missionary) may not at some later date do something which would lead his or her leaders to send him or her home, thus ending their authorized mission, or that a missionary can’t at some later date just decide to go home without any authorization from his or her leaders, or that a missionary can’t just decide to proclaim something other than that which he or she has been authorized to proclaim… or that those who control financial investments for the Church can’t do something to compromise their integrity and thus cause the Church to lose some money if the money is invested in a company and the company goes bankrupt because of the bad decisions of someone in charge of making financial decisions for that company, or that, in general, people can’t just decide to do something contrary to the will of our Lord … because our Lord never has and our Lord never will revoke anyone’s power to make their own decisions in opposition to His will… but as I said, our Lord does make His will very clear through revelation to all His prophets and apostles of His Church every day, as well as through His revelations He has given to His other prophets and apostles in the past who are now dead and speak only through scripture. Now there, is that plain enough for you? If not, ask God, because that is the truth, no matter what anyone but God has to say. Heh, and you still missed the main point I was making. I am saying that no other group, or organized body of religious leaders or followers, aside from those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, receives directions from our Lord in doing their missionary work or is authorized to do any other work for God… and thus nobody else is “godly” in doing what they are doing… because it is not godly to just assume God’s authority simply because other people have or had His authority. Or in other words, Tommy, you and your leaders are doing the work of Man while assuming to be God, because you are assuming to have God’s authority…. while I and other LDS and anyone else who knows the truth knows for a fact that God has not authorized you or your leaders. And btw, it might do you some good to read Doctrine & Covenants section 1, or again, while considering it to be the word of our Lord. ... and don't expect to hear any more about this from me. (heh, edited repeatedly to try to improve my "tone" while trying to make my thoughts more clear in words)

Just for clarification... are you saying that you beleive the people who will end up in the Terestrial and Telestial kingdoms will go there only because they would still be refusing to give up one or more of their sins... even though some scriptures state that those who will be sent to the Telestial kingdom will have paid the price for all of their sins? And btw, it would also help if you clarified exactly where you think Hell is. Or in other words, are you referring only to what we [LDS] refer to as outer darkness as Hell?

Yes it is, and that is one of our Lord's commandments, but those who haven't had or don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel now will have the chance to hear it later... well enough to be told about Jesus Christ and that they should exercise Faith in Him to know what He wants them to do... and if they don't follow through from that point then their fate is entirely of their own choice and making.Or in other words, Tommy, this is very important stuff we're talking about here because it affects your eternal welfare, and you should be seriously asking God whether any of this is true instead of relying on us and your reasoning... and if you don't do that in all the sincerity of your heart you won't receive what you could have received, because God can always hear you and assure you of the truth. So, when you decide to get really serious about all this, and I think you should be NOW, you should listen to His prophets and apostles and ask Him what He thinks about all that... instead of relying on us to tell you what they say or have said while thinking your bases are covered. ... and as I hinted at before, if you're seriously intent on cheating yourself by not talking to some active missionaries in your area, then at least study the writings of prophets and apostles instead of what we tell you here. p.s. I'll now tell you something else to help you, which you still won't know to be true, unless you ask our God to guide you in the way to know the truth. When our Lord died he bridged the gulf between the wicked and righteous dead by preaching the gospel to the wicked dead, or actually by appointing servants who would preach the gospel to them. And until that time, you're right, Abraham couldn't cross that gulf, but through the Atonement the captives were delivered who had no other way to cross... and as we are told in other revelations, those who reject the gospel (and the ordinances thereof) in this world will not receive the greatest blessings even if they receive the gospel there... because they could have learned the truth in this world if they had simply learned from God. ... and if you want to hear more than this I suggest you do a Search on lds.org for the key words "spirit prison"... instead of asking or expecting us to do any of your Searching for you... not that I mind trying to help you, but it's really not the best way for you.

Tommy,I am telling you that all of the official work done by the leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done in accordance with revelation and inspiration received directly from Jesus Christ, and the “issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices” are directly related to that. Or in other words, if by “the Church's administrative, tactical, and otherwise practical decisions” you’re referring to the decisions which direct the work of leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then Yes, I am saying that all of them are “inspired, coming directly from Christ… or in other words, all of them are authorized and approved through revelation the Church has received and continues to receive directly from God through Jesus Christ. And to continue to try to help you understand our position, again, I’ll follow the counsel of MrsS and support this point with some official comments from our authorized leaders who are prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ … and you can then continue to wrestle with this issue and His words if you feel you must. And btw, you can find the full discourses from these prophets and apostles (and I recommend you study them), as well as those from many other prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, online at our official Church website at http://www.lds.org by doing a Search with the key words “missionary work” or the name of the published discourse. … and remember: the point I was making is that the work we [LDS] are doing is authorized by Jesus Christ through direct revelation from Him, through His words to His living prophets and apostles today and the revelations they write for us...which is distinctly something different than what you and your leaders claim to receive and accept today in your groups... by your own open admission.

You seem to have missed what I meant. I’m saying that when the President of the Church and any other prophet and apostle of our Lord receives revelation from Him, they know beyond doubt it’s from Him, and they consider it to be of the same quality as other revelations received by other prophets and apostles in the past… or just as binding as “scripture”… and yet you and your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) do not consider what they receive to be of the same quality as other revelations from our Lord, or of the same quality as scripture… which shows that you do not have the same faith or confidence in the revelations you and your leaders receive, as we do from that of our leaders… after receiving our own assurances from God. But yes, on your point, that just as some people today misunderstand and misinterpret revelations from our Lord in the Bible, concerning what our Lord and His prophets and apostles actually meant, there are still people who misunderstand the revelations from our Presidents and other prophets and apostles in the Church, or don't know they are inspired by God. Or in other words, you don't have the same confidence in your leaders and the inspiration and revelations they receive, while claiming they are authorized and inspired by God, as we [LDS] have faith in our leaders and the revelations they receive, while knowing they are inspired by God... and you have admitted that fact.

I'll not reject anyone that God reveals to me is his prophet. If you'd stop kicking against those "pricks" in your heart, you might actually hear what God's saying. And yes, if I could, I'd give my own eyes to you.

Amen Sister Maureen! So do you think that now after Jesus has personally appeared on the Earth we don’t need to hear from any more of His prophets… like Peter and James and John, or any of what Paul had to say to us either? If so, I disagree, especially in light of what the prophet and apostle Paul said (and I believe we should hear what he said) concerning how our Lord gave His church prophets and apostles (and various other officers) “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man <or woman>, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”… and I’d say that right now by the look of things we still have a very long way to go. - see Ephesians chapter 4, especially verses 10-16 And btw, to those who are tired of hearing me talk about this, I’m sorry you feel that way… but I’ll say what I have to say… regardless of what you have to say either today or any other day. So there. :)

Shantress70, I am so sorry you feel that way. In John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that He is in leadership over all of us mortals, and He is the "middle man". Please see PC's post who nailed it for me... I was speaking of church leaders... mere men, or women for that matter. I was absolutely not speaking of Jesus Christ. But thanks for playing word games with me! So is that what you guys and gals plan to tell Him when He asks you why you rejected His prophets? And btw, if it’s really too hard for you to imagine that Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young, and John Taylor, … and Gordon Hinckley were and truly are God’s prophets in these latter days, try to imagine yourself in some other day and time when you would have heard from Moses, or Joshua, or Elijah, or Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or Malachi, or any of God’s other prophets who revealed God’s word to Man.

Yes I am, and Yes I do, although I didn’t compare it with any claims of the Pope.Or in other words, Yes, the President and other prophets and apostles of our Lord’s church on Earth do(es) seek inspiration and revelation from our Lord daily, to help them live their lives and make the best decisions they can possibly make in all their areas of responsiblity… just as anybody else on Earth now does or if not should start to do. And btw, I did notice that you didn’t even address my statement considering the fact that your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) openly admit to NOT receive revelation from God of the same quality that prophets and apostles did in the past, (and which LDS claim today), because you consider what you (and they) receive to be inferior to that in the scriptures… which shows not only do you lack His Faith but you really CAN see the difference… although you still can’t see the truth of His Faith, because you really don’t have His Faith… which you openly admit.

I agree that we should not try to make people feel that everything will be okay if they postpone their day of repentance, but those who don’t have the opportunity to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ and do the work He wants them to do will still have an opportunity to do their work or accept work done on their behalf. Or to put this in real simple and logical terms for you, Tommy, and everybody else, it’s either going to be one of 5 ways for you and me and everyone else on this Earth, if you or I or anyone else comes to learn anything about the true gospel of Jesus Christ: 1) I’ve now learned enough of the true gospel, so that I now know how to have Faith in Jesus Christ and do what He wants me to do. If I do those things and continue to learn from Him I’ll be on the path to a glorious Me. If I don’t do those things I won’t ever become the greatest person He knows I can be. 2) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it in this life. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be. 3) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it before the day of “final” judgment, before this world has come to an end. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be. 4) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it after the day of “final” judgment, after this world has come to an end. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be. 5) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, and I never will learn any better. My fate is now eternally sealed and I can’t ever do anything to change what I do. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person that He knows I can be. I’m now eternally stuck without anyone to help me overcome all or even some of my problems. And there never will be a “Savior” because there never was and never will be. And btw, while I believe I have learned enough about the true gospel of Jesus Christ, I am trying to learn everything there is to know. I believe I can learn more about it and embrace it both now and forever in eternity. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. But I can learn to admit my problems and mistakes once He makes them clear to me. And I now know that the day to Repent and become like Him is both now and forever in eternity… because my waiting only delays the greatest person I can become and leaves me with the person I am. But No! Not me! I can see what I can be! And I never will stop until the person I am is the greatest He knows I can be!

Why - What about the love, compassion, willingness to forgive and grace of G-d (anything in his nature) has convinced you of this? The Traveler 3 points to make here: 1) Whoever or whatever has convinced anyone of this idea, I think it’s important to state that this is not the true doctrine of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, no matter how much anyone believes it. And yes, anyone can believe what they want to believe no matter who speaks for or against them. 2) This idea is influenced partly from something one of the prophets who wrote the Bible said concerning the truth that how after death comes judgment, and it is also influenced partly by another statement from a prophet who said something about the truth that how after death no labor can be performed. 3) We [LDS] now know there will be some time between our death and the day of our “final” judgment, before this world comes to an end, and while it is true that we will not be able to do any of our own work that should be done in this world after the day of our mortal death, that doesn’t mean other people can’t do some work for some of us who don’t know they need to get it done, or that some of us won’t accept some of that work done in the behalf of others of us either before the day of “final” judgment or after this world has come to an end.

In case you weren't aware of it, our Lord Jesus Christ is a Man and so is God our Heavenly Father, so perhaps you would be happier finding some other religion in which you can worship a Heavenly Mother who sent Her only begotten daughter to redeem us from sin while revealing Her will to us through all Her appointed servants... ...or perhaps you will learn to do His will while not holding His masculinity against Him and those He appoints to lead us, whenever there is a male in a position of leadership over you.

Okay, if that was your purpose, let me make our [LDS] position short and simple for you.We [LDS] believe (and some of us know) we have prophets and apostles who are authorized by our Lord Jesus Christ to lead THE only organization on Earth which is authorized by our Lord to help Him in His work, as they receive personal revelation from Him to assure them of what our Lord wants them (and the members) to do. Or in other words, we believe our leadership decisions come directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, as He reveals His will to the President (or presiding officer) of His church here on this Earth, (who is President in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then reveals those revelations from our Lord concerning the Church and the world to other prophets and leaders of the Church (who are also authorized by our Lord in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then confirm those revelations with our Lord… if they have any doubts concerning what the President declares to be true… and then delegate some responsibilities to some other members of the Church. ........................................................................................................................................................ You (and most if not all non-LDS groups) have leaders in your (and their) organization(s) who believe they are blessed by our Lord with “strategic thinking” capabilities, although they do not claim to receive personal revelation from our Lord, nor do they claim to be authorized as prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, because they don’t believe our Lord works “that” way anymore with any of us who are now living on Earth. Or in other words, while the role of your (and their) leaders seems similar to that of our leaders, the “inspiration” your (and their) leaders believe and claim to receive is admittedly not of the same “quality” as that received by other prophets and apostles of our Lord who received personal revelations from God in the past, because you believe and admit there is something “special” about those other revelations (which are considered scripture) compared to the “inspiration” that you (and they) receive now. ....................................................................................................................................................... And btw, I said “most if not all non-LDS groups” up above because I believe there are some groups who actually do claim to be authorized by our Lord with personal revelation from Him, although in fact we [LDS] know they are not, because we [LDS] know our Lord only has “one” church. Or to make it even simpler for you, Tommy, we [LDS] believe you are not a member of the only church or organization on Earth which is authorized by our Lord’s authority… although you may and can be a Christian, and do a lot to do “good” works. Or in other words, while we [LDS] believe neither you nor any other people in any other church on the face of this Earth is authorized by our Lord to help Him in "His" work, you and they can and do help to accomplish a lot of “good" works on Earth, and some of that is done by showing the errors of your way. And btw, I still love you, so don't consider this a personal attack. :) p.s. If you'd really like to learn about our doctrine without meeting with any of our missionaries who should teach you, I recommend a book from Joseph F. Smith called "Doctrines of Salvation", which you can buy at any LDS bookstore or online at this site here. It's a fairly thick book but the doctrine is presented in a series of organized subjects... none of which would be better for you to study in all of our "standard" works.

prisonchaplain, I do believe you may have received assurances from God regarding the truth on many issues, but there are still some truths you do not know and the only way you can know those truths is by receiving assurances from God on those issues. And btw, I am only saying that you "may have received" assurances from God because it is possible that you believe the things you believe simply because you accept assurances from other people who say they have received assurances from God, and what they say combined with what you think simply "makes sense" and sounds "reasonable" to you. For instance, if you accept the Bible simply because the people who wrote it claimed to be inspired by God and you simply accept whatever they say, as well as some other people who accept it and interpret it the way you interpret it, then you really don't have an assurance from God... although you may think that you do. Or in other words, if you really believe you can know the truth by simply accepting the Bible, without receiving personal assurances from God to assure you that He inspired those words and how those words should be interpreted, then you still need to receive assurances from God to help you know the Bible was truly inspired by God and how you should truly interpret those words. And then, once you know how to receive assurances from God, not only will you know the truth on those issues that you have asked God about, but as you continue to ask and receive His assurances you will also know the truth on any other issue you ask God about until you know all of the truth. And btw, I also believe you should not be waiting until another one of us mortals manages to convince or assure you that you should pray to God to know the truth on any issue either, because knowing the Truth should be one of your goals if you truly want to know the truth about God... regardless of what anyone other than God has told you about Him or given their assurance about. And that is all I have to say about that. Now, to share a thought on an issue related to the topic of this thread, I think it may help you to know that we [LDS] do believe in only one God in the sense you seem to accept that idea, it’s just that we believe we can also say “Gods" because the true God is more than one person. Or in other words, there is only one God in the sense that there is only one supreme being in all of existence, and we use the word “God” to refer to that being, but that being exists as more than one person... just as all who are "man" can be referred to as "men". Anyway, I thought it might help you to see that we do seem to agree about that. Oh, and one more thing. While learning is fun, and sharing our knowledge is fun, it's not really the point of this "game", because what will really matter is not how much we know, but what we did with the knowledge we had. Anyway, take care brother. I sincerely hope you'll receive the best of all prizes. :)

Heh, all interpretations involve a "tricky distinction", and to know the truth we must have an assurance from God. But I congratulate you and your willingness to help people know what they cannot know without that assurance from God. :)

Okay. I understand you now. And I still believe some of us know something about all the things some of us do and will know about everything there is to know about. :)

Heh, Christos, my brother, if you don’t recall or realize it, I was simply trying to let you know that there are some of "us" who know some things that you said “nobody” knows. Or in other words, my commentary was a commentary on your commentary stating: Or in other words, you do not seem to be among the “we” who know the things that you don’t seem to know, and while I agree that many of us who are now living as mortals on this Earth don’t seem to know all the heights and depths of those things, there are many of us who do know something about all those things whether you or some other people know them or not. Or in other words, if you meant or were actually thinking that none of us who now write commentary on this website can now comprehend all the rewards and blessings God has in mind for those who live by Faith in Him, then I’ll be among the first to agree with that thought… but that is not what you actually said. And btw, I didn’t say those “who read commentary on this website” because I believe many of us who are now Gods are reading our words. AND: I use the word “we” and "us" to refer to all of us who are children of our Father in heaven. I use the word “know” to refer to having true knowledge, whether all or only in part. And I use the word “Faith” to refer to an assurance from God… which is the only true way to know anything. Sorry. I thought you were using the idea of “Hell” to refer to anyplace we might live without God…. which could be interpreted to mean that the limited amount of glory we might each have in our “Heaven” is to those who are God as “Hell”.And btw, I’m not just playing some word games with you, people. I believe “words” and “semantics” are very important.

Yes. The plan of salvation was presented to save us from death, and allow us to live like God.

Christos, You talk as if you really believe your ideas, but I know better than to believe all you say. .Of course we are not, but we do have the potential to become like Them, because we are the children of God, just as Seth was a child of Adam. And Adam was created in the image of God, as all sons are created by fathers. Oh, one must, must one? So what happens to those who don't? As a son is a figure of his very own father, a being in illusion or resemblence of him. Yes, because Man was naturally created by God. Heh, just wait til you see Jesus Christ and our Father. :) That refers to how a natural man cannot see God in His glory, unless that man is also "transfigured" by the power of God, as Moses was transfigured on the mountain.