Ray

It is one thing to contend that individuals, and perhaps even whole congregations might give themselves over to apostasy. However, the entire Christian world? The whole church...not one that stays true? Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against his church. And the grand span of the biblical account is one of a remnant of believers prevailing until conviction and repentence comes to the House of God. No, the belief in free will (or free agency) does not extend to a belief that the whole of creation would embrace apostasy for 1700+ years. I would argue that Christ is the rock, the foundation, upon which his church is built. Peter's confession was that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God--and it is upon this confession--this rock--that Christ builds his church. It wasn't about Peter, or the disciples, or who would be greatest in the Kingdom--it has always been about Jesus. But the only way to know Jesus is to get direct revelation from Him, or by knowing who He has authorized to establish His church. And in case you don't know it, there have always been people to reject Him and ALL of His prophets. For instance, who led the true church of Jesus Christ of the former day saints? Do you know? And what were they teaching for doctrine? And FYI, the "Bible" would not be a very good answer, because His church is not the church of THE BIBLE. And even if the Bible were the best answer or the best thing to follow as members of our Lord's true church, how do you suppose we are all supposed to know which people truthfully interpret the Bible? Heh, some of you people seem to have no real clue about what is really going on in this world.

You’re still not interpreting the scriptures correctly, so keep trying with inspiration from God. Try reading Alma 40:15 again, beginning with the beginning of the chapter. Notice how Alma wrote, beginning with verse 1, that he had tried to understand this issue by seeking inspiration from God, as he talked or wrote to one of his sons about the separation of the spirit from the body, (which is the dissolution of the soul). Notice particularly verses 11-14, where Alma uses the word soul to refer to the state of the total person until the time of their resurrection,, and he further declares that he is giving his opinion in verse 20 while talking or writing to his son.And btw, the scriptures are made up of the words of people as they wrote with inspiration from God, so we shouldn’t believe that all of the scriptures are the actual words of God… except where the prophets of God have actually written the actual words of God… as Joseph did in D&C 88:15. Our Lord actually meant that we should fear Him who is able to separate the spirit from its body, and the body from His spirit, in hell. Again, a prophet of God speaks or writes using his own words to convey the ideas that are or were inspired by God, and here we have the apostle Paul using his own words to describe the complete person in his letter to the Thessalonians. And the words of the apostle Paul are not as perfect as the words used by our Lord. Yes, and the words of others who are inspired by God can also do that to us if we interpret them correctly. The word “soul” was used by many prophets of God to refer to the complete persons we are, so any time our spirit bodies become separated from our physical bodies, or our spirit AND physical bodies both become separated from God, we can refer to that separation as the destruction or dissolution of our souls, which consist of our spirits and bodies. Or in other words, John saw the persons who had been killed by having their physical bodies put in the condition where the spirit was compelled to leave, and the reason they were killed was because of their testimonies from God which assured them that Jesus was and is the Christ.And btw, you and I and everyone else also need an assurance from God to assure us that Jesus was and is the Christ, as well as how to interpret His words and the words written by His prophets, and unless and until we actually receive our assurances from God we are only relying on the assurances of men (and women) like us.

But your definition of “soul” comes from your interpretation of the scriptures, NOT from the words themselves, and even then you’re not using all of the scriptures to help you to understand “us”. So I recommend that you ponder the words in the scriptures, including ALL God has given to us, while seeking your inspiration from God to help you understand the “beings” He created, or “us”. And in the spirit of love and friendship I’ll give you a link to all of those words, but, to be of any use to you, you’re going to have to study them, while seeking God’s inspiration and assurance. Soul OR If you’re not interested in studying all of the words of God while asking God to help you understand “us”, I’ll give you a summary and state it very simply, our soul is our spirit and body….as stated in God’s own words, and those words He used there are in complete and total harmony with all the other words God inspired His other prophets to write. Heh, but you can disagree if you want to, as if that can alter the truth, but know that what God has stated is totally true, and we can all be assured of that by God. I hope you'll have a good day. :)

Heh, okay, try thinking about what happens in the womb, or before even those parts were formed, because each of us is made up of "parts" from the ones who created us. :)

You said that as if the two ideas are mutually exclusive... but they're not.Or maybe you just don't see the "building blocks" which make up the "parts" we have? If not, try realizing that each of us have DNA in each of the parts we have, which not only puts our "parts" together, but determine which "parts" we'll have. Sing it with me now... the foot bones are connected to the... leg bones... the leg bones are connected to the... thigh bones... the thigh bones are connected to the... back bones... as they make up the "parts" we have. :) And btw, some of our parts are big and noticable, but each of the big parts are made up of teeennny tiiiiiiinnny parts that we can't really see right now.

Hi Serg, You have some misunderstandings about me, and I hope I can help you to see them, but even if you don’t try to understand the words that I'm using as I try to share with you what I'm thinking. I have never said anything like that, or if I did, it’s not what I meant, because I believe a lot of non-LDS people know some of the truth, just not some of the truths that we [LDS] know. Heh, I have also never said anything like that, or if I did, it’s not what I meant, because I believe the only way for anyone to learn the truth is by receiving their assurances from God… not from us [LDS]… not from anybody other than God… including God’s true prophets and apostles. What “IT” are you referring to? What are you saying we [LDS] should tell people?I’ve tried to make a habit of always telling people that the only way to learn the truth is from God… by receiving our assurances (known as Faith) from Him… as God assures us and anyone else of the truth, as conveyed through the power of the Holy Ghost. Not necessarily, because one of the things that helped me learn the truth as taught from members and missionaries of our Church was hearing them tell me HOW I can know the truth… by receiving my assurances from God… not by accepting what they told me, or even what our prophets and apostles have said, if not accompanied by an assurance from God. And if anyone else is learning the truth differently, then we should point out that gulf between our understandings…. while telling them they can believe whatever they want or choose to believe, while we rely on our assurances from God. Again I think you misunderstand me, because I’m not trying to convince anyone about the divinity of the Church. I’m simply trying to tell people HOW we can ALL learn the truth, by receiving our assurances from God.But yes I do believe that our Church is the true church of Jesus Christ upon this Earth, and the only one with His power and authority, but whenever I say that or share my understanding I ALWAYS share HOW I learned that from God. I have simply shared my testimony, about HOW I know the truth, and what I actually know, and anytime I tell people about anything I know I ALWAYS try to tell them HOW I came to know what I know. I am trying to keep it simple, Serg, by talking about HOW to know the truth, and whenever I add anything that is related to a topic my main topic is always that of Faith.And btw, I do this because I now understand what our Lord was saying as He told several people that we should talk about Faith and Repentance, while not contending or arguing about our other doctrines, because I now understand that everything else is just “words”, until we know HOW and actually DO receive God’s assurance of the truth.

Good points. Thank you. I agree. :)

Hey...let this post wander...what made the Work and Glory movies so much better. I haven't seen them, but will check if Netflix has them available. For one thing, they're very close to the quality I've come to expect from movies or short films and videos produced by the Church. One of those kind of things you kinda have to "feel" to know what I mean. Another reason was probably because I hadn't read the books, although my wife had, so I wasn't comparing the movies to the ideas and images I had in my mind. Another reason was because the movies don't even pretend to be true stories, although the stories do revolve around actual events that occurred in the history of the Church during those days. Basically, the stories revolve around the lives of members of a fictional family during the time of the restoration of the Church… with some of them accepting, and some disbelieving, the Prophet and teachings of the Church. Another reason was because I liked the way the actors and actresses played their parts, with costumes and make-up that did NOT distract from the story. My main “gripe” with the BoM movie was with the actors who had pearly white teeth (you know they were definitely bleached) and a fresh change of clothes (in perfect condition) practically every day (despite their wandering in the wilderness) which WAS very distracting from the story. But I also had read the book, so I was comparing the movie to the images I had in my mind. And who knows, maybe they did have teeth that white, and they mended their clothes in the wilderness while continuing to make new clothes. I did like certain things about the movie, though, like how they portrayed how the angel who “popped in” to stop Laman and Lemuel from beating on Nephi. And I also thought the story itself was good, with life-like scenery as the backdrop to the story. I don’t remember the music, though, and I think I would recall if it was distracting, because I also agree that music helps to convey the “feelings” involved in the story.

... but we must also continue to learn from God, until we know ALL truth, while discarding any false ideas and beliefs we may have... that became a part of us as we simply accepted what people other than God taught us... including some people with the best of intentions... such as our mothers and fathers, and even "good" preachers, who simply accept some precepts and traditions from men.Heh, sorry, but I was in kindof a hurry to get out of here yesterday and wanted to add that thought. :)

Yes, it did cause me to stop, ponder, consider, pray, "tarry", etc, but while the ideas were presented in a way that I hadn't thought about before, there really was and is nothing new in this doctrine than in what I already believed and had come to accept by studying the Bible and receiving assurances from God to help me know it was and is true... even though it was and is at variance with my father's and grandfather's beliefs... because they were taught in a college by certain "bible teachers" about how they should interpret "God's word" in the scriptures.And btw, you also won't find your idea of "macroevolution" and "microevolution" mentioned in the Bible, except as certain people interpret certain scriptures and teach other people to interpret them that way, so once you know HOW to find the true interpretation of any "scripture" you won't have any problem finding the truth in all words. But I will admit that I can still recall the new and more powerful feelings I received after I had actually received the gift of the Holy Ghost, which continued and still continues to help me to see and hear all things differently than I had seen or heard them before through that church.

Heh, don't judge all LDS movies or movies about LDS beliefs by that movie. My wife and I watched it, and it was kinda good, but the book is very definitely much better. And yes, we do have it in our collection, but only because it was given to us as a gift. I do really appreciate the "Work and the Glory" movies, though. They are both movies we do and did want to buy. The first one came out sometime last year, and the second one is coming out soon. And there is also going to be a 3rd one coming out, but we really don't know exactly when.

A few other ideas, which I hope will be of help to you, but which will still not actually teach you the truth of anything. If LDS “scholars” have been and are still the only ones who accept this doctrine, then of course your statement would be true, because once some non-LDS “scholars” come to accept this as doctrine, they would then be a “scholar” of the Church. Heh, why did you state this idea as you did? We [LDS] don’t believe Joseph Smith “stumbled” on anything. We [LDS] believe God personally assured him of His truths. But you are still basing that on your “private interpretations”, while we [LDS] are relying on our “revelations from God”. To put this another way, I neither relied on other people with private interpretations of scripture nor did I presuppose Mormon doctrine was true simply because other people told me it was. I simply took information that was presented in “ideas” and asked God to assure me of the truth. Or in other words, I am not suggesting that you presuppose “Mormon doctrine” is true before you ask God for His assurance of the truth. And I am also not suggesting that you presuppose any other information is true simply because you received that information from someone other than God. Or in other words, yet again, I am suggesting that instead of “interpreting” the Bible and other ideas, to find out which “interpretation” is the truth, simply ask God to assure you of the truth, without relying on any ideas or assurances from anyone else. And btw, once you do this, if you have never done it before, you will know that an “idea” is the truth… but not because that idea was written in the Bible, or any other book, but because God has assured you it’s true.

Good job, Maureen. That is also possibly true. And I’ve also heard it said that our Lord is the firstborn of all who follow our heavenly Father as our Lord followed our heavenly Father, with some people even thinking that our Lord followed our heavenly Father only after being born on this Earth. Heh, so again, I’ll give you some credit for your creativity, or coming up with some alternative beliefs, but I still believe we can be sure about which of the possibilities to believe by receiving our assurances from God. And now that you know our beliefs, you are accountable for having received them, though you may not believe or choose to believe what God assures us [LDS] is the truth. Ahhh. Isn't life great. It's a beautiful day here in Portland. :)

If you’re saying that once we know we were literally created as spirits by our Father in heaven we can then more easily differentiate and distinguish that understanding from the teachings of other people who think and believe we evolved from lower forms of life, YES, it does help us do that, doesn’t it, because we can then see that NO, we did not evolve from lower forms of life, but we were literally and actually created by our Father in heaven as His children, with a spirit exactly like His… except that we still have a long way to go before we become perfected like Him. For those who are inclined to embrace certain teachings from people who teach or taught them they are not a child of God, or that God is not our Father, Yes, I suppose it would be a surprise to hear that we are literally the children of God, with a capacity to become like Him as we learn to accept His word. But I, personally, was always taught that I am a child of God, and that God is our heavenly Father, although I never totally embraced those words until I received that testimony from God... by His assurance known as Faith... by which we can be assured we can call Him our Father… while knowing He actually is. …but not in the same way. And I think we’ve already explained the distinction, if you’d care to go back and read it. But to try to say it again simply, our Lord is the only one of us whose physical Father was and is God… the one we all can refer to as the Father of our spirits in heaven. Yes it does, doesn’t it. So by knowing the truth on this issue, we can see which understanding is true. Yes. It refers to the first of those who are born. Yes, but those rights and blessings were inherently those of the firstborn. You seem to want to change those words from “first” to “the most majestic” being, so perhaps knowing that our Lord is the first born of all the sons of the most majestic being we know of will help you see that a Son is as great as His Father once He becomes "one" with Him. Yes and No. We [LDS] consider God to be a name/title of all of the most majestic beings there are in all of existence, which exist as individual persons, but we ALSO use the name/title God to refer to specific individual persons, such as when we use the word God to refer to our heavenly Father. And although we (all of Mankind) are the sons and daughters of God, we do not refer to ourselves as God until we become "one" with God and perfected "like" God (referring to ALL who are known as God). I agree with everything you said here, and I couldn’t have said it better. :) Enough to state that other non-LDS churches seem to be teaching a different doctrine… and have been for a VERY LONG time... after they fell into what we [LDS] call Apostasy… when even some “Jews” didn’t know these truths about their own true God.... and I still say the only way you can know these truths is by receiving your assurances from God. :)

Okay, Ben. Please specify exactly what it was I said that was rude, because I simply don't see it. Or in other words, please use quotation marks to show me exactly which of my words were rude. And btw, I'm not asking for your interpretation of my words, but exactly the words that I used. And if that's not clear enough for you, try to understand this: I simply was saying that we should all learn from God, without assuming or presuming or presupposing or supposing anything, and I do not see how that was "being rude". And btw, I'm not "playing dumb" or anything like that either. I simply think it's best to not assume. p.s. Oh, and one more thing, which I hope is most obvious: No man can convert any other man to God.

That was a great answer, Maureen, and it’s exactly how I once felt about this site, it's just that you don’t seem to realize that the main reason you keep coming back here while being: “interested in reading other opinions and thoughts,” "understanding" why people choose the things they choose”, and “having choices and choosing things” as people “add their ideas”, is because you are interested in either accepting some ideas from others who come here or hoping to help others accept your ideas, as you: share who you are and how you feel and what you believe with everybody here and gather what you see and believe are the best ideas you can gather from everybody else who is here as they try to do the same thing for you. Or in other words, you are still here for pretty much the same reason everyone else is still here, which is simply because you are interested in sharing your thoughts and opinions about what you believe is the truth or the best way to be (especially when asked, though sometimes even when not), and gathering some information as people share their ideas to help you know how to be better. And btw, if you thought I was saying something rude to Tommy, or that I was trying to criticize him for continuing to come back to this website to share his thoughts with us as we share our thoughts with him, you are mistaken. I was simply saying that once he accepts what some of us are telling him about HOW to know the truth, if he ever does, he will become more like those of us who are sharing our knowledge about HOW to know the truth… which is by not simply accepting what we and other people tell him, but with an assurance from God. And btw, if you still won’t accept what I and others will tell you, it really won’t be anything new. Oh, and the reason I don't still feel "that" way anymore about this site is because I would rather learn from the members and apostles and prophets of the Church as they share their knowledge from God, without having to hear and put up with opposing views. Heh, so now, if I can simply break my addiction to this site, and my desire to help you and all other people, I will no longer come back to visit this site while knowing God doesn't need me to help anybody. And I'm just about to the point where I will feel content with helping the people who are and come near me in my usual and everyday life. :)

And how dare they make us wait for (how many?) MONTHS to find out what happens in SMALLVILLE ?!?!? And btw, speak carefully, because some people haven't seen that show yet.

So why are you still here, Maureen? And btw, I never said there aren't some other good reasons, but I still stand by my words above. I believe those issues are directly related, Serg, because they prevail against the gates of Hell.Or in other words, we're talking about both sides of the issues that lead to OR away from Hell. I don't know if that is what Tommy is saying, but that is what I am saying, because if we ever stop thinking we can live without His assurance (or the assurance all Gods have in common), then we're only relying on our own assurance when we still need to learn from God.And btw, I would now like to thank you for all your support, and for the pleasure of getting to know you. :)

Tommy,Are those the only conclusions or suppositions you can make from all of those scriptures? Or in other words, could you possibly make any other assumptions than the ones you already made? Or in other words, do you think it's at least possible that other people learn things from the scriptures that you do not "suppose"? Or in other words, do you think it's at least possible that God could help other people to understand and interpret the scriptures in some way you can't even imagine right now, which is at variance with your beliefs? As I said before, I'm done trying to teach you (and other people) everything I know, because that is not my job, and the only thing I need to tell you (and everyone else) is that you should have learned and be learning and continuing to learn from God... by getting ALL of your assurances from Him... and from there you can go whereever you want, and I hope you'll end up with God. And btw, I've already told you that you should be learning from God, so I don't need to say anymore. Bye bye now. :)

I believe we won't ever be fully mature until we're exactly like God. And despite what some of us choose to believe here, we still have a LONG way to go... ... except for those of us who are already there, but nobody here is there. And btw, there is nothing at all wrong with being a child, but somehow being "childish" is bad??? And yes I do know what some people mean, but it still gives good children a bad rep.

Yeah, that's what she said too. She worked for Mariott before and immediately after her mission. Anyway, I hope all things will work out well for you, Shannon... just like I hope and pray for the very best for everybody. :)

I'll recommend that people read what our Lord and His prophets have said in the scriptures as they described how it will feel to suffer the pains of Hell, because they are much more eloquent than I am.

Heh, I now see that I neglected to mention the fact that the topic of HELL is in our Topical Guide, and to make this simple for everybody I’m going to post that link right HERE. And btw, the link to HELL in our Bible Dictionary, which I did give in post #29 on page 2 of this thread, explains that HELL refers to more than one place, or state of being, with the idea of how it will cease to exist.

I believe our official Church website, http://www.lds.org, is our best website for official information from our Church... which includes links to our other official websites, such as http://www.mormon.org, http://scriptures.lds.org/, http://www.providentliving.org/, http://www.familysearch.org/, and http://www.ldscatalog.com. :) …and I believe the best way to use http://www.ldstalk.com is in trying to promote http://www.lds.org as the best online source of official information from our Church. :)

Hmmm. Software trainer, from near Raleigh, who was once a member of the Church. Do you happen to know someone named Brenda, whose last (maiden) name rhymes with Raleigh? And yes, if we ever get over and down that way, I'd like to visit those towns. :)