Ray

Okay, from your response, ApostleKnight, I’m getting the idea that your reasons for discussing your ideas with other people is because you “like discussing things” with other people, even when they do not agree with you, and that you “enjoy the fellowship and intellectual stimulation” you get from other people even when they do not agree with your ideas. Did I correctly interpret your thoughts? If so, would you please tell me or try to explain what it is exactly that you actually “enjoy” while talking with other people who do not agree with you… especially on major issues of doctrine that reflect a knowledge of God? Do you enjoy the feeling of knowing some things that other people don’t know and will not accept as you try to share your ideas? Or do you maybe hope that someday you will be able to help them to see and come to believe what you know is really the truth? Or is the truth of no real importance to you as you discuss your ideas with other people, as long as you can “enjoy” whatever it is you enjoy while discussing your ideas with other people? And btw, I’m asking these questions not because I am trying to pick a fight with you, or cause trouble, or something like that, but because I am truly trying to understand how and why you would be able to actually “enjoy” talking to people when you can see they do not, and will not, agree with your ideas, considering the fact that I only enjoy associating with people who have values like mine and are trying to become perfect like God. Or in other words, I do not enjoy associating with people who want to be different than God and how God wants us all to be, and the only reason I try to share my beliefs is to help them see God is the being worth emulating… and only those who want to really be like Him are those who will someday live with Him.

I’m resurrecting this old thread for the same reason I resurrected another thread… to try to show others that someone who uses reasoning alone can’t prove anything or make someone else believe what they know … even on a more basic issue like whether or not trees are actually falling in forests when we don’t see them, and without any outside force making them fall… because this old thread has many other comments from people who thought they could prove their point. Or in other words, I’m trying to show that if or when person A discusses an idea with person B while person A uses reasoning alone, person A can’t cause person B to believe what person A knows to be true unless person B also receives his/her knowledge from God, because none of the reasoning we can use to support our beliefs can cause anyone else to believe us. And why am I doing this, you might ask? To simply ask others why THEY continue to have discussions with other people to share what they think or believe they know, while knowing that no amount of talking with other people can make them believe or accept what you say… unless God assures or tells that person that what you have said is really the truth? Or, for those who think they can convince someone of something else they know to be true, while using reasoning alone (without God’s help) to convince them of the truth, I’m challenging you or anyone else to convince me that anything you say is really the truth, and I’ll offer a few examples for those who want to try using reasoning alone. Example A: Prove whether or not there really is a true in God in heaven. Example B: Prove whether or not Jesus was and now still is the Christ. Example C: Prove whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who saw God. Example D: Prove whether or not the Book of Mormon is a book inspired by God that Joseph Smith translated through the power of God. Example E: Prove whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is now the only true church of God on this Earth with God’s authority to share the gospel with others. Example F: Prove whether or not the Holy Spirit has inspired you to help you know what you know and that what you know is really the truth. Example G: Prove whether or not you really know ME using all I have already told you. Or if you can think of anything else that is true please feel free to use those as examples. And btw, if others come to the same conclusion I have come to regarding how to share what they believe and know, I think we will all be able to see that all we can do is share what we believe and know along with our testimony of how we learned those things while then leaving others alone to either accept or reject what we know is the truth while hoping they will learn for themselves from God … knowing that any further “discussion” is pointless until they can see what they do not see or did not see when we actually shared our true knowledge.

I’m resurrecting this old thread to try to show others that someone who uses reasoning alone can’t prove anything or make someone else believe what they know … even on basic issues like whether or not Jesus is the Christ or if there is a God in heaven. Or in other words, I’m trying to show that if or when person A discusses an idea with person B while person A uses reasoning alone, person A can’t cause person B to believe what person A knows to be true unless person B also receives his/her knowledge from God, because none of the reasoning we can use to support our beliefs can cause anyone else to believe us. And why am I doing this, you might ask? To simply ask others why THEY continue to have discussions with other people to share what they think or believe they know, while knowing that no amount of talking with other people can make them believe or accept what you say… unless God assures or tells that person that what you have said is really the truth? Or, for those who think they can convince someone of something else they know to be true, while using reasoning alone (without God’s help) to convince them of the truth, I’m challenging you or anyone else to convince me that anything you say is really the truth, and I’ll offer a few examples for those who want to try using reasoning alone. Example A: Prove whether or not there really is a true in God in heaven. Example B: Prove whether or not Jesus was and now still is the Christ. Example C: Prove whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who saw God. Example D: Prove whether or not the Book of Mormon is a book inspired by God that Joseph Smith translated through the power of God. Example E: Prove whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is now the only true church of God on this Earth with God’s authority to share the gospel with others. Example F: Prove whether or not the Holy Spirit has inspired you to help you know what you know and that what you know is really the truth. Example G: Prove whether or not you really know ME using all I have already told you. Or if you can think of anything else that is true please feel free to use those as examples. And btw, if others come to the same conclusion I have come to regarding how to share what they believe and know, I think we will all be able to see that all we can do is share what we believe and know along with our testimony of how we learned those things while then leaving others alone to either accept or reject what we know is the truth while hoping they will learn for themselves from God … knowing that any further “discussion” is pointless until they can see what they do not see or did not see when we actually shared our true knowledge.

It takes work to try to share truth with grace, and I hope we'll all learn to love better.

Wow. That was awesome, Traveler. I'd love to have memories like that with my Dad. :)

Thank you for your support, cynyclsgirl. I will consider you to be my "second witness" to the things I have said, in accordance with God's law of witnesses, and now that we've shared what we know to be true, it is now up to others to either embrace or reject our testimony when they stand before God to be judged. How some people can believe and say that all beliefs are as valid or respectable as true beliefs is still very hard for me to understand, but I know they believe and do what they've been led to believe and do, and I know someday we'll all get what God will give us to understand.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :) How is that, Ray? Your picture is worth more than my words. I was assuming the whole time that you were kidding, but I see that I'm dealing with someone far more sinister here. You're actually helping to make your own point... that you are a self-righteous, judgemental bigot. Whatever you think will make your god happy, I suppose! Shannon, Take a look at your own words above. Would a "Christian" say something like that to someone else? And that picture you used was a picture you chose to use, not something that I made you do. You always accuse me of being the "bad" guy, and I'm simply saying you are deceived... and being "deceived" is not bad, if you'll learn what is true, instead of sharing what I know is not true and what I've told you isn't true, to try to give you some better information to think with.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :) How is that, Ray? Your picture is worth more than my words. Ray, you don't seem to be denying your accusation to Shantress here. But then you change your mind in another post and say you haven't accused Shantress of being demonized. You can't have it both ways - which is it? I understood the “gist” of what Tommy was saying in the post you just quoted above, but I did not use the word “demonized” to explain what I meant, unless it agrees with what I said about how certain people are deceived, if those people are what he called “demonized”.

Yes, everyone on Earth has been authorized to offer prayers to God, our Father in heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, to help them know the truth, so nobody is unauthorized in doing that. But everyone on Earth has not been authorized to do ALL things in the name of our Lord, such as perform baptisms, or give the gift of the Holy Ghost, or give God’s priesthood to others, or proclaim what is actually the true gospel of Jesus Christ, so people who do those things without being authorized by God, are not authorized, or are unauthorized, to do those things. And I think you should have already known I would say that. Heh, I was asking that question to try to get you to think about it, not because I didn’t know the answer.And even if you know what is really the true answer, which is to seek God’s assurance through prayer, you do not have authority from our Lord to share that idea or to share His true gospel, no matter what you may be thinking… … but that is not to say that you would be “evil” in sharing what you know to be true without actually having God’s authority, any more than someone who knows the laws of his land would be “evil” in sharing his knowledge of what the true laws really are. Heh, yes, I have heard of that. Are you trying to be funny or something? I agree. And I also shared that thought with you. But modern revelation from God is also God’s word, just as much as that received anciently.Did you really not know what I was asking? If modern prophets of God receive revelation from God today, why would that be inferior to revelations from God to other prophets of God in the past? But I also agree with all that. ALL revelations from God should be in harmony with all other revelations from God, but harmony doesn’t necessarily = the same information. For instance, the priesthood was once reserved for only the descendents of Aaron, except for certain people who held the same order of priesthood as Melchizedek and Moses and Joshua and Elijah and the other prophets who led the "church" in their days, but both orders of priesthood can now be given to anybody (under the right conditions), so to expect all revelation to state that the Aaronic priesthood can only be given to the descendents of Aaron in our day, or that only Melchizedek and our Lord had that order of priesthood, would not be in harmony with God’s word to other people later. But being in the canon doesn’t determine what is scripture, because “scripture” is simply information received through inspiration from God, while “canon” is the “standard” to know scripture. All “scriptures” (or all words written by men as they are moved by the power of the Holy Ghost) don’t need to be universally accepted by <all other> “Christians” before some “Christians” know those words were inspired by God, and those words that are “canon” have simply been accepted by a certain group or some “Christians” because those people accept all of those words... and expect other "Christians" to accept them, as a "standard" for determining what is scripture.Or in other words, nobody in this whole world, either before or after becoming a "Christian", needs to wait for everybody else on this Earth to learn which words were truly inspired by our God, because each person can receive his very own assurance to know whether they were inspired by God. Or in other words, if you’re trying to suggest the idea that all LDS should wait for every other “Christian” to determine which words were inspired by God, I’m sorry, but I’m not waiting upon anybody, other than God, to know what God wants me to know.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

I disagree, Shannon. Yes, we should try to respect each other as people, knowing we were all children of God, but No, we should not respect false beliefs, or beliefs we know are not true. Or in other words, I believe God wants all of us to know the truth, about God and other people and things, instead of what others choose to believe when we know those beliefs are not true… because if some of us have and share false beliefs we will not hear the truth on those things, about God and other people and things. And while I do know that I can’t convince anyone else I know the truth about the things that I say I know, because many other people also say they know things as they believe and share opposing beliefs, I still believe I can help other people to know what is true by sharing what I know about HOW to learn… and the only way any of us can truly know the truth is by getting our assurances from God. I'm a lot more easy-going than Shantress70. I'd just settle for us respecting each other as persons. Folk may think my opinions are ridiculous, unworthy of discussion, the product of unregistered pharmaceuticals, or whatever. But, when we degenerate to assessing the # of demons possessing one another--via the internet mind you!!!--it's just way over the top (or under the belt) posting, imho. Tommy, Once again you are misrepresenting me, whether you actually intend to or not, and while you are doing that you are being deceitful, whether you actually intend to be or not. And to try once again to clear up this error that you continue to present to other people, I’ll try to explain what I actually meant which you think is the work of some “demons”. Try to understand that being deceitful and being deceived are directly related to each other, with someone who is “deceitful” being someone who is “deceiving” someone else who accepts what they tell them is true when what they are saying is not true and they then become known as "deceived". Is that crystal clear to you now? I never used the word “demon” to describe anybody. I simply said some people are deceived by the deceitful. And just in case that’s not clear to you yet, I’ll illustrate with an actual example, while hoping you’ll see that people know the truth or they are simply deceived. The example: I have stated and will continue to state plainly that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is a record of people who lived anciently somewhere on the American continents who wrote what they were inspired to write through the power of the Holy Ghost. And I have also stated that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church of God upon the face of this Earth with actual authority from God to share the gospel with others. And I have also stated many other things I know are true, and I will continue to share my beliefs... and as I do so I am either deceived or I actually do know these truths. Or in other words, I am someone who is either deceived and being deceitful, (or someone you have essentially called a demon), or I am someone who knows these truths as I am sharing these truths with others, which I suppose you would call a saint. And there is no middle ground here, Tommy. I either know these truths or I am deceived. And it is you who seems to say that those who are deceived and being deceitful are what you would call a “demon.” And as others have said before, we can know a person by their fruits and their clothing, and some who are EVIL have a pleasant appearance or seem nice or have “smiling eyes”. That we all may learn from God, without being deceived, is my prayer in the name of my Lord.

Are you absolutely sure about that? And here's another example: God will always be the most ultimate being there was and is in existence. And yes I'm absolutely sure about that.

Heh, sometimes I really do love you, Jason. I hope you'll deserve to live someplace good... ... just not too close to me!!!

Heh, are you trying to suggest the idea that the ice you are skating on is not as thin as mine? And that your ice is thicker than mine because you really know the truth about God, from God Himself? I know what I know, Tommy, because God has assured me of those truths. And what I know does not agree with some of what you say you know, or with some of what you think you know, or with some of what you believe you know, or with some of what you feel so sure about because that you say or think or believe God has assured you of what you say and think and believe you know to be true. (I think that covers everything, doesn’t it?) So the bottom line is that only one of us, if any of us among the two of us, has really received our assurance from God, and the other one of us is only saying or thinking or believing his assurance has come from God, when in fact his assurance has actually come from Satan or himself or another person or persons who he is relying on as someone who has told him the truth… because we both do not agree with each other, on certain issues, and God always agrees with God. Right? Or do you not know God well enough to know that God is “one” in agreement with the truth? It’s not rocket science, folks. When people have beliefs about God that conflict with the beliefs other people have about God, one of those groups of people does not know the truth about God, if any of them know about God. And I am so sure that I truly know God, as well as I do, that I’d die to seal my testimony. And yeah. I know. You are too. So we’ll just have to wait for God to judge us. Right? And No, I'm not going to play “Chicken” with you on this, because I would change my position if I really knew you know the truth... after receiving my assurance from God... which I have already recieved and continue to receive as I seek to know ALL truth. And btw, I never said anyone was "demonized", unless you're referring to the fact that there are demons (or deceitful spirits) around all of us trying to get us to believe things that aren't true, with some of us believing them. Misrepresentation. Libel. Anyone know a good lawyer somewhere around here?I know what I know, Shannon. I never have claimed to know everything. And I do not put people down when I tell them I know them that what they are saying is not true, because those people have put themselves down to say and believe something that is not true, and I am only trying to help them get up. Try to understand those facts and you'll then know me a little bit better. :) And btw, God will judge all of us based on what we knew and could have known to be true by getting our assurance of truth from Him, so if you totally reject some truths you heard and could have known to be true by simply receiving an assurance from God, but instead chose to totally reject those truths because you didn’t seek faith from God to know the truth on those issues, then God will not give you the blessings you could have received if you had simply sought your assurance from Him. And I have warned and forewarned you several times, Shannon, because I'm trying to help you get up. :)

Of course I am, and she thinks Satan deceived me. Didn't you read those words we exchanged? Yes. Be aware. Be very very aware.I think some people very seriously underestimate the power Satan has to deceive us. Yeah. So. Do you have a problem with that?But I suppose you think you're contending for the faith that was "once" delivered to the saints. :)

Correct. Unauthorized use of the name of Jesus will only get us in trouble. But how can we do the will of the Father without really knowing what it is?And how is doing the will of the Father not what is doing “good works”? Correct again. There is only one way to know what is true, and that way is through “the way, the truth, and the life”, and the more we come to know and truly know Jesus the more we will know our Father… and what He wants us to know and do… hence, correct knowledge of and from and all about Jesus is “essential” to following Him. Would you be kind enough explain how or why you believe revelation written and spoken in the past by people who were inspired through the power of the Holy Ghost to know and understand God and God’s will for mankind is better or more reliable than revelation written and spoken in our present day by people who are inspired through the power of the Holy Ghost to know and understand God and God’s will for mankind???Or in other words, why do you believe ancient prophets and the revelations they received are better than those of today? Frankly, that makes no sense to me at all, especially in light of the fact that if older revelation is actually better than the new, then we should be using the oldest available, which means we should be using the revelations received and recorded by prophets in the Old Testament more than what we now have in the New Testament… simply because the oldest is better. And btw, if you'll alter your statement to say that we should make sure that what someone says is modern revelation from God is actually modern revelation from God, by testing those words against the words we know are actually scriptures, or words inspired by God, then of course I will agree with that statement, but that's different than saying words given in the past simply trump modern words, if they all were inspired by God.

Sounds like someone just got out of an Especially For Youth conference.... Yes, even some youth can cause us to feel shame or be proud. :)

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who. And I say the same about you, Ray. Heh, yes, I know you do. And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :) So maybe now that we know this about each other, we can become better friends? Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who. Well, OK. But have you holstered you gun and taken your medication? I can go back to Hannity for a few days if you want. Old Tex Yeah. I think I shot the last of the infidels, so it is now safe for you to come back. :)

Heh, you can come back now Tex. There's nothing wrong with my mood. :)

Almost. I want you to learn all of the truth that is now available on this Earth from God, beginning with the "standard" works... which to you right now seems to be only the words in the Bible, and I know there is a whole lot more available. Almost. I want you to rely on only God, by learning directly from God through Faith, or the assurances He can and will give you as you sincerely seek to know the truth. And once God does assure you of more truths than you currently accept right now, you will know what to do with that knowledge.Or in other words, I’m not asking you to rely on the teachings of this Church. I’m asking you to rely on God, as God assures you of the truth in any information or ideas you happen to come across. And now that you've come across some information from and about God in this Church, I'm asking you to ask God about all of this information and rely on the assurances He will give you so you can then know more truths than you know right now from and about God and this church. Almost. I’m not asking you to get “my” information from and about this Church, but I would like you to know the truth that is in this Church, so that once you know the truth concerning what the Church actually teaches, from the “authorities” in this Church, trying to make sure you interpret them correctly, and you then seek your assurances from God about those teachings to make sure you know the truth about what this Church is actually teaching, and has taught, you will then come to know more truth about God and this Church as God assures you of the truth that is in this Church. Why would you say that some prophets of God have fulfilled God’s perfect will by simply sharing some of the truths they know? While some truths may help you get closer to God, only all truth will help you get closest... and this Church has a lot more truth than you know. Almost, and I inserted a few words to try to help you understand me. Almost. I mean you should be open to all information until you learn the truth from God. But you can't know which words are inspired by God without receiving God’s assurance on those truths.Or in other words, simply reading and absorbing the information in some books will not help you to truly know about God…. unless God gives you His assurance that that information was inspired by Him, and as you continue to learn more about God from God and the people who He inspires. As you can see, I am trying to work with you, even though it seems to me that you are really not learning or even trying to really learn from God or from me as I try to share my knowledge of God with you.And btw, we are not on equal footing, because we both do not agree with each other, and I’m not going to believe what you are trying to tell me unless I can get an assurance from God about what you are telling me... which ain't gonna happen on at least some of the things you tell me because some of the things you tell me are directly opposed to many things I have learned from God. But your responses weren’t neutral, Tommy, because you were proclaiming your view on positions that were and are opposed to what I have learned from God. I gave you this before, but maybe this time you’ll read it, while trying to understand what he was saying or what he was actually trying to say… and he actually worked for BYU, and he was a very good scholar, and also a prophet of God.And btw, please also try to make sure that you interpret him correctly, by seeking an assurance from God. ... hmm, for some reason it won't upload this time, but you can find it on the internet, by searching for Hugh Nibley's talk entitled "Leaders to Managers, the Fatal Shift".

Hi Serg, No harm done. We’re all still trying to figure out ALL of the details, but there does seem to be a few things that I know that you don’t know, and I hope we’ll both become “one” with our God. And to share a few more of my thoughts with you, first of all, I'll tell you that I know God knows everything about everything and everybody… and knowing that, I know there must be a limited amount of things and bodies to know, otherwise God could not know everything about everything and everybody... and He would still have some more things to learn. Or in other words, I know God is not ever going to be surprised by a discovery of some other being, or some other kind of God who really was the “first cause’ of it all, and that would certainly be possible if God didn’t really know everything about everything and everybody… as you seem to be suggesting by the idea that there are some beings God will never know because they are too far back, or too far away, or whatever, for God to ever be able to know them or even meet them. Secondly, knowing there are a limited number of things and bodies in existence, in some form or another, I also know there is a basic “essence” that every thing and every body possesses, whether it’s a thing or body to be acted upon or a thing or body that acts. Furthermore, based upon revelation I have received from God, I have also concluded that things that are only acted upon are possessed by only eternal elements, without any form or degree of intelligence, and things that have the ability to actually act are things that are possessed of some form or degree of intelligence, as well as agency, to become what they choose to become….with the power to become better given through the power of God as God helps those who want to progress. Or in other words, I know that all living beings are composed of intelligence, to one degree or another, and the one being or one type of being that possesses more intelligence than all other beings is the being we now know as God… the ultimate being in all of existence that knows everything about all other beings with any form or degree of intelligence… as well as everything about other things without any form or degree of intelligence, or else God wouldn’t know everything about everything and everybody, and I know God possesses that knowledge. Anyway, just some food for thought. Let’s keep learning by learning from God, because we still have a long way to go to become like Him, and I know He is willing to help us. :)

That’s a good approach, but realizing that you still don’t know everything, even on specific issues, should make you cautious in stating your beliefs, unless you really know, by an actual assurance from God, that what you believe is really the truth, knowing God has given you His assurance of those truths. Or in other words, and to give you a clue about how and why I sometimes get frustrated with you and other people who declare what I know is not true, I’m saying we should all be careful when stating our beliefs, such as the true nature of God, and His church, for examples, until we receive an actual assurance from God concerning the truth of those things specifically, line upon line and precept upon precept… otherwise we’re simply spouting what others have said to us as they’ve tried to teach us what they believe, while those who know God know the truth about some things and are trying to teach those who they know still don’t know it. You do seem to almost understand my point now, but as I explained to you before, we (LDS) do not believe in the “office” of a prophet. Or in other words, the President of the Church is the “presiding” prophet over all of the Church, and also over all the other prophets in the world, because his appointment has come directly from our Lord, through others who were directly appointed by God. So, yes, every member of the Church should be a prophet, and every person on Earth should also be a prophet, by receiving their own knowledge from God… and as we gain knowledge from God we should all then be “one’ with God and God’s knowledge He has given us… and there is no good reason why anyone should have conflicting beliefs, since we can all gain our true knowledge from God. Not quite. Yes, that is all we can do as listeners, but as people who share our knowledge or beliefs with other people I think we should be careful about what we are actually sharing with others… unless we really know what is true and have authority from our Lord to share our knowledge with others… otherwise every person who has their own ideas will flood the world with their ideas and beliefs… some of which are not based on truth…. which can cause confusion of monumental proportions. See, you seem to be drawing that line again, thinking that “thinking inspired by God” is only written in the Bible, when I can see God’s truth in every idea, whether written or spoken, when someone is sharing the truth and I hear it. While you seem to have a much more limited idea than I do about how God shares the truth with all of us. I was using that definition to make a distinction between those who really know God by learning from God, rather than by learning from other people who know God or only think they know God… including people God has actually inspired with some true knowledge, because we can only know that when God personally assures us of those truths. Was that idea really so hard for you to understand from what I said to you in my other words? I hope that now that I’ve cleared up that erroneous idea you had about us having the “office” of a prophet, you will see we agree even more that you thought we did before. And to give you a little more information, I’ll tell you the “offices” of anyone who has priesthood in the Church: The Aaronic priesthood, which includes the Levitical priesthood, has the offices of deacon, teacher, priest, bishop (also known as the high priest, or the president of the priests) The Melchizedek priesthood, which is the highest order of authority, has the offices of elder, high priest, seventy, apostle, patriarch and president. No, I’m not against “formal” studies, knowing that teachers can only present some information, while alos knowing that God is the only true teacher… as we all learn through the power of the Holy Ghost. As I said before, I learn from God anytime and anywhere, either in books or the ideas shared by others, but all of that learning is not the work of the intellect, through reasoning alone, but as we learn or gain knowledge from God. So please tell me you're not against learning from God, knowing all truths are not contained in the Bible! Not quite. All of that comes from what I perceive to be the position you are taking when you respond with counter-arguments to the things that I tell you are true… which shows you’re not seeking your knowledge from God and are instead relying upon the understanding you already have… as you argue with me instead of seeking knowledge from God. Or in other words, if you were to ask questions, like: “how can that be true in light of this… or that idea”, I would then be able to see that you’re at least giving some thought to the ideas I and other LDS are presenting to you, which I and other LDS know to be true, but since you don’t do that, and instead only come back with counter-arguments while making assertions stating something completely opposed to what I have told you, I can see you’re not seeking the truth. And it’s as clear as sunshine to anyone who can see what you say and what you are actually doing. If you’ll start coming back with questions, instead of making counter-arguments and assertions which I know are not true, I’ll then give you the benefit of that doubt. Heh, oh boy, you still don’t see what I’m saying, and at this point I won’t make any comment. Just stop right there. You keep making statements like that, even after all that I’ve told you about how I learned how those revelations were and are true, so what are you really having trouble with understanding? I didn’t simply follow “the revelations of Joseph Smith”, I followed God knowing He had spoken through Joseph. Okay, then explain to me how those instructors were anointed, and how you know they were anoninted? And if it has anything to do with the fact that they simply went to college to learn what they taught you, then you still don’t seem to get what I’m saying… because learning from God has nothing to do with going to college, and anyone who knows that can tell you. And btw, by saying your instructors were “anointed”, are you saying you consider them to be prophets of God? If so, why don’t they agree with other prophets? I always praise God for inspiring me to know who He has anointed to be His prophets on Earth, because simply going to college to try to learn about God wouldn’t necessarily result in learning from God. Okay, let me put it like this. The only good thing about going to college, in my opinion, is the fact that a person can receive a piece of paper enabling them to get a “good job” in this world, because the fact that a person is exposed to so many ideas and is expected to learn what he or she is taught by their teachers may not result in them knowing the truth … unless they put their Faith in God knowing He will help teach them the truth.. and while that can be made even easier by having teachers who are also inspired to know the truth and teach the truths they were and are taught from God…. a person could also learn from God anytime and anywhere whether or not they ever went to a college. And btw, I also believe a college is the counterfeit of a temple, which is the best place to gain the best knowledge from God. Bottom line: We can all learn the truth but only by learning directly from God, and sharing how to learn from God is the best thing we can offer... as we all speak of gaining Faith from the true God.... ... and each person who accepts everything God has revealed to them personally, without rejecting any truths as they are presented in ideas to them personally, will be worthy of the Celestial kingdom.

Ray, didn't you recently make a big deal about leaving this board and us in darkness, and walking towards the light or something? What're you still doing here, arguing with us people who "won't hear?" Did someone forget to mail your coconut cake? I'll get right on it. :) I'd guess I'm still here for the same reasons you are still here. I just get a little frustrated sometimes. :) And btw, some other people still hang around where they once did work, even after they retire, because of some reasons that draw them back too... and yes I'd still like that coconut cake. :)

I will too be in the present of my Daddy in heaven--because I say, do, and believe what He teaches me through Jesus. Perhaps you have learned some true knowledge from God, but you still have a whole lot to learn, and until you learn to accept ALL His words, either from Him or ALL of His prophets, you will not know all you still need to learn. WOW. Any other LDS want to comment on this. Are the theology/religion professors at BYU prophets of God, and thus infallible? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt by believing that you actually did not mean to misquote me, when I said they are infallible on some things, or by the knowledge they receive from revelation from God, instead of simply what others have told them. Or in other words, not only is God infallible, but those who God teaches are too, in all of those things they do learn from God as God teaches them (and us) of His truths. While I never said that, I might. Think about it. Theos = God, ology is the common suffix for study of, or knowledge. So, theology = knowledge of God. So, a theologian is a student of God. If you're not learning about God, then how can you know God? Instantaneous revelation? But some people who study to gain knowledge of God do not learn who God truly is… because instead of learning directly from God they learn only from people who think they know God, so in fact they have not learned the truth. And yes, as strange as it seems to sound to you, we should all be learning by instantaneous revelation from God, every day as we pray to seek knowledge, instead of only from others who truly do know Him, or from those who only think that they do. It seems you didn’t understand me as I tried to reveal my thoughts in my words, because I was using the word “theologian” to refer to someone with a college diploma who has simply learned what others have taught him and did not learn true knowledge from God. Ray, are you a prophet? Would it be so strange to think that I was, by receiving my knowledge from God? All members of His Church are or should be true prophets, and receive all their knowledge from God. And I know we’ve discussed this in several other threads, though now you don’t seem to remember. But, apparently it's a good route, since you've stated that BYU theology professors are prophets of God. But the only way I knew and know that is true is by receiving that knowledge from God. Ray, you're just wrong. You’re seeing things. I've not said or implied any such thing. Furthermore, my training was not "worldly." Then why does it seem you believe revelation from God is only contained in the Bible, as you were taught that from your teachers in college? If anyone can gain true knowledge from God, then those people are also true prophets… to the degree they obtain their true knowledge from God… and not simply by reading and believing other people who said they were prophets even if their words are contained in the Bible. You do realize this crack sounds rather smart aleck, don't you? Seriously, you've been taught, and you've bragged that the LDS do not speak poorly about other religions or people. Then you accuse me, falsely, of flaunting my education, and of using my training simply to get a good job (as opposed to following the will of God, come what may). I'm disappointed, Ray. I thought you'd come to know me a little better than this. You misunderstood me again there, Tommy, though you may think you do know what I meant, but I know my thoughts even better than you and I know you did not see what I meant… and instead of simply asking me to clear up my point, you made another assumption with accusations. And to clear up this point for your benefit, I’ll try using some other good words, but to know what I mean you should try to understand that my words are imperfect reflections. Anyone who understands the ways of this world knows a college diploma helps to get a “good job”. But God does not care about that piece of paper, and we don’t need it to gain knowledge from God. Better now? Or in other words, “lay people” can learn as much if not more from God than people who go to college to learn, because learning from others instead of learning from God may not give them true knowledge from God… so only by learning directly from God can we know when we and others know the truth. True prophets very rarely admit it, except to teach what a prophet truly is, but anyone who does gain true knowledge from God should be considered a true prophet of God. And btw, in case you still don't get it, I'm not referring to Presidents of the Church, because while Presidents of the Church are prophets for the Church, we all are or should be God's true prophets... and aware there are "wolves in sheep's clothing".