Something to Contemplate

[KosherXMorg]

If a missionary from another Book of Mormon believing church goes into a country and teaches the Book of Mormon and asks the people he teaches to pray about it will G-d withhold that witness because they aren't LDS?

If G-d does give them that witness (He cannot lie) and as far as these people know that missionary and that church were THE ones that had the Book of Mormon wouldn't they naturally assume that THAT church is the "true church"?

[Hemidakota]

I would presume to say 'Yes'. If the person uses the same approach as to Joseph, "..which church is true?". I used this approach as Joseph did and it works.

They would assume it would be true if it came by the promptings of the spirit. Yet, there is another method of receiving such an answer beside the feelings, when we see that Paul saw and hear the Savior's voice; or Joseph Smith seeing both the FATHER and the Son.

And?

[KosherXMorg]

I would presume to say 'Yes'. If the person uses the same approach as to Joseph, "..which church is true?". I used this approach as Joseph did and it works.

They would assume it would be true if it came by the promptings of the spirit. Yet, there is another method of receiving such an answer beside the feelings, when we see that Paul saw and hear the Savior's voice; or Joseph Smith seeing both the FATHER and the Son.

And?

As a LDS, would you not believe they are projecting their witness of the Book of Mormon onto the issue of church veracity if they joined that other church?

[utcowboy]

I agree with Hemi. If they are asking if the BoM is true then the spirit will support that. But they need to ask if the church is true, if the doctrines that the church teaches, are they true!! That is the question any missionary from any church should be asking, Is their doctrine the truth?!?!?

[Hemidakota]

Concur...I never asked about if the BOM was true but whether the Church itself, along with the Prophet Joseph Smith was His church and His prophet. That was answered. It was later that I received a testimony of the people of the BOM.

[KosherXMorg]

Concur...I never asked about if the BOM was true but whether the Church itself, along with the Prophet Joseph Smith was His church and His prophet. That was answered. It was later that I received a testimony of the people of the BOM.

The first thing LDS missionaries do is ask the people to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, you are quite the exception.

[Dr T]

Hi KosherX,

Are u asking if a hypothetical person was to present it/or any book for that matter, and the receiving person prayed about it and "felt it was true" would that actually make it true? Is that your question? And are you assuming that the "good feeling" must come from God in that case?

[KosherXMorg]

Hi KosherX,

Are u asking if a hypothetical person was to present it/or any book for that matter, and the receiving person prayed about it and "felt it was true" would that actually make it true? Is that your question? And are you assuming that the "good feeling" must come from God in that case?

No, I am specifically referring to the Book of Mormon. I believe often LDS missionaries go into an area, present the Book of Mormon, the sincere person gets a witness of it, and because of the false notion that the "Mormon Church" is the only one that uses it, project their witness onto the veracity of the church. Many people become disillusioned with the LDS church when finally delving into it pages completely and then give up on the whole thing, because they see what is taught in the BofM and what is taught in the LDS church are vastly different and they begin to doubt the whole shebang. I think if more people were aware of the different Book of Mormon believing churches at the time of their BofM witness, the breakdown of adherents in the different churches would be vastly different then it currently stands.

[Dr T]

Ok, thanks for clarifying for me.

[utcowboy]

I would be curious to learn these difference Kosher, could you start a thread with one of these teachings so that we can all learn?

[WillowTheWhisp]

That's a good question Kosher because I didn't know there were other Book of Mormon believing churches at first and assumed that if one believed the book to be true then it must follow that the Church was. I actually got my testimony of Joseph Smith first but not because missionaries asked me to pray about him.

[KosherXMorg]

I would be curious to learn these difference Kosher, could you start a thread with one of these teachings so that we can all learn?

Sure. It would be easiest for me for whoever to ask about a certain doctrine then we can explore that, then move to another, instead of me trying to figure out which differences to talk about.

[KosherXMorg]

That's a good question Kosher because I didn't know there were other Book of Mormon believing churches at first and assumed that if one believed the book to be true then it must follow that the Church was. I actually got my testimony of Joseph Smith first but not because missionaries asked me to pray about him.

My first witness of the Restored Gospel was of Joseph Smith, during a Youth Stake Choir presentation of "My Servant Joseph" when I was approx. 15-16 years-old. I know Joseph had a mission from YHWH, and suffered for it by the hands of evil men.

[NeuroTypical]

If a missionary from another Book of Mormon believing church goes into a country and teaches the Book of Mormon and asks the people he teaches to pray about it will G-d withhold that witness because they aren't LDS?

I suppose you'd have to find another such church first. The RLDS/CoC are the largest, and they've pretty much abandoned the BoM. Other splinter churches grow less "BoM-centric" and more mainline evangelical with each year. Most others don't have any sort of missionary force.

The state of reality is evidence for the CoJCoLDS (them Utar Marminz) being the correct and true one.

However, to answer your questions, no, I don't specifically believe G-d would refuse to answer their sincere prayer about the truthfullness of the BoM. Even if that answer led them into an 'apostate' splinter faction.

LM

[Guest tomk]

If a missionary from another Book of Mormon believing church goes into a country and teaches the Book of Mormon and asks the people he teaches to pray about it will G-d withhold that witness because they aren't LDS?

If G-d does give them that witness (He cannot lie) and as far as these people know that missionary and that church were THE ones that had the Book of Mormon wouldn't they naturally assume that THAT church is the "true church"?

Excerpt from the INTRODUCTION:

We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.)

Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.

So my question is -- how would these supposed missionaries explain that they are from a different church? Are these increasingly hypothetical missionaries instructing people to skip the introduction?

[Guest Xzain]

Excerpt from the INTRODUCTION:

...

So my question is -- how would these supposed missionaries explain that they are from a different church? Are these increasingly hypothetical missionaries instructing people to skip the introduction?

I've been in discussion with a knowledgeable member of a splinter faction- he couldn't decide which one because he was still searching. (He believed the BoM to be true, but didn't believe in the LDS Church- he hinted at falling away because of 'disagreements with the doctrine') I asked him some questions about splinter groups' relation with the LDS Church, the BoM, etc.

To my understanding, most large splinter LDS groups often tout Joseph as a divine translator, but then say he fell into sin (as 'evidenced' by his involvement in polygamy). After that their history varies- except for the Community of Christ (which has basically abandoned the BoM) most still believe in the BoM as scripture and some sort of divine authority held within their ecclesiastical structure. I have come to understand it as 'Mormon Protestantism', except the split was moving away from the greater light rather than towards it.

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The presentation posited in the OP is interesting.

If a missionary from a non-LDS church comes bearing the BoM and promises of a divine witness, any listener may very well receive one, as has been mentioned earlier. The missionary may give an entirely different history than the LDS history, and their proselytes may believe it for a time; or indefinitely.

Truth will out, however- when the mainstream LDS chuch gains presence in the area, the two doctrines will conflict and the true one will prevail. Such was the case with rogue LDS missionaries in the early days.

Case in point- Walter Gibson, a missionary sent to Hawaii who quickly began preaching false doctrines. After being confounded and excommunicated he abandoned religious pretenses and rose to power secularly; however he lost it and eventually died 'peniless in San Francisco'.

(Walter M. Gibson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[Guest tomk]

I've been in discussion with a knowledgeable member of a splinter faction- he couldn't decide which one because he was still searching. (He believed the BoM to be true, but didn't believe in the LDS Church- he hinted at falling away because of 'disagreements with the doctrine') I asked him some questions about splinter groups' relation with the LDS Church, the BoM, etc.

To my understanding, most large splinter LDS groups often tout Joseph as a divine translator, but then say he fell into sin (as 'evidenced' by his involvement in polygamy). After that their history varies- except for the Community of Christ (which has basically abandoned the BoM) most still believe in the BoM as scripture and some sort of divine authority held within their ecclesiastical structure. I have come to understand it as 'Mormon Protestantism', except the split was moving away from the greater light rather than towards it.

----------

The presentation posited in the OP is interesting.

If a missionary from a non-LDS church comes bearing the BoM and promises of a divine witness, any listener may very well receive one, as has been mentioned earlier. The missionary may give an entirely different history than the LDS history, and their proselytes may believe it for a time; or indefinitely.

Truth will out, however- when the mainstream LDS chuch gains presence in the area, the two doctrines will conflict and the true one will prevail. Such was the case with rogue LDS missionaries in the early days.

Case in point- Walter Gibson, a missionary sent to Hawaii who quickly began preaching false doctrines. After being confounded and excommunicated he abandoned religious pretenses and rose to power secularly; however he lost it and eventually died 'peniless in San Francisco'.

(Walter M. Gibson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Of one thing you can be sure -- any deception, while it may prosper for a season, will ultimately be shown for what it really is and will not last.

[KosherXMorg]

I suppose you'd have to find another such church first. The RLDS/CoC are the largest, and they've pretty much abandoned the BoM. Other splinter churches grow less "BoM-centric" and more mainline evangelical with each year. Most others don't have any sort of missionary force.

The state of reality is evidence for the CoJCoLDS (them Utar Marminz) being the correct and true one.

However, to answer your questions, no, I don't specifically believe G-d would refuse to answer their sincere prayer about the truthfullness of the BoM. Even if that answer led them into an 'apostate' splinter faction.

LM

What are you even talking about "less BoM-centric"? Only the Community of Christ has distanced themselves from it, all the others still believe in it very strongly. Where are you getting your information? Seriously.

[Elphaba]

What are you even talking about "less BoM-centric"? Only the Community of Christ has distanced themselves from it, all the others still believe in it very strongly. Where are you getting your information? Seriously.

Kosher, you obviously belong to one of the many religions that believe in the Book of Mormon, of which there are a few. One not many people know about was in Missouri, and I think was called "Temple Lot Church of Christ." Maybe it still is.

Why not just tell us?

Elphaba

[KosherXMorg]

Kosher, you obviously belong to one of the many religions that believe in the Book of Mormon, of which there are a few. One not many people know about was in Missouri, and I think was called "Temple Lot Church of Christ." Maybe it still is.

Why not just tell us?

Elphaba

Why not read my profile? I explain fairly clearly where I stand.

It's the Church of Christ, "Temple Lot" is added by many as a clarifier.

[Elphaba]

Why not read my profile? I explain fairly clearly where I stand.

Wow. . . your page just got a gajillion hits, including mine.

While your profile was entertaining I am too tired and grumpy to read it all. Why the need to be so cryptic?

It's the Church of Christ, "Temple Lot" is added by many as a clarifier.

Is that a clarification or a statement of membership?

Elphaba

[KosherXMorg]

Wow. . . your page just got a gajillion hits, including mine.

While your profile was entertaining I am too tired and grumpy to read it all. Why the need to be so cryptic?

Is that a clarification or a statement of membership?

Elphaba

Cryptic??

I am a member of no church. No organized Book of Mormon believeing church shares my beliefs. I'd stick out like a sore thumb resting on the Sabbath (Saturday), not eating pork, shellfish etc... ignoring x-mas and easter but celebrating Passover, Tabernacles etc... and using the true names etc...

[Elphaba]

Cryptic??

I am a member of no church. No organized Book of Mormon believeing church shares my beliefs. I'd stick out like a sore thumb resting on the Sabbath (Saturday), not eating pork, shellfish etc... ignoring x-mas and easter but celebrating Passover, Tabernacles etc... and using the true names etc...

Okay, I understand see what you are saying.

Are you alone in this? Do other people share your beliefs and fellowship with you?

Do you see yourself as something like a prophet? (That is not a sarcastic question.) Or as a teacher perhaps?

And yes, every post you've written in this thread has been cryptic, as you just only answered all of the questions people have had about your position.

Elphaba

[KosherXMorg]

Okay, I understand see what you are saying.

Are you alone in this? Do other people share your beliefs and fellowship with you?

Do you see yourself as something like a prophet? (That is not a sarcastic question.) Or as a teacher perhaps?

And yes, every post you've written in this thread has been cryptic, as you just only answered all of the questions people have had about your position.

Elphaba

I guess I still have latent cryptic tendencies from my years growing up LDS, where giving the full story might drive people away (no offense folks but ask outsiders how you come across when answering theological questions).

More people within the Restoration Movement are starting to wake up to Torah Observance. In fact someone from here has contacted me because him and his wife are in the same boat.

The lady who has inspired me has never been a member of any church of the Restoration. She grew up Baptist, converted to Messianic Judaism, gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon and YHWH has used her to bring forth some awesome truths. If you want to read her writings visit: http://www.zionheritage.org

I'll try to be less cryptic in the future, I think part of it may be my gospel vocabulary which tends to incorporate words and phrases from a bunch of different religious thought patterns.

[LegendadryPerc]

Matthew chapter 13:

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Many people have made the same good point on this thread. What is being overlooked is the individual love and concern of God for each of His children. If they did join a different church for a time, or even for their whole lives, it would not be some accident because they were decieved. God knows the intents of our hearts. He knows what we need at any given moment. He wants to give us good gifts. Our experiences moment to moment are orchestrated for our utmost benifit for where we are in our journey toward perfection. If this happened, (and I'm sure it's happened to many - pretty sure I met people on my mission whom this had happened to) then it is part of their journey or free agency and learning and the perfect environment a loving Heavenly Father has provided them for what they need to learn then. Perhaps there is something they need to learn by belonging to that church. If it wasn't right for them to belong to it, if it was detrimental to their pesonal journey of free agency, to ultimate happiness, then God simply would cause something to happen to prevent them from being decieved. He is perfect.

I think this is something LDS members need to talk about. I know it blew me away and really shook the foundation of my faith, how strong the spirit was the first time I attended a religious ceromony not my own. Now, ironically, I look back, and wonder how it could have posibly surprised me, and how I could posibly have been that old before I realized God talked to all His children, not just the ones of my religion. So there is no doubt in my mind that truth, where ever it is found, will be known through the spirit.

I have not read your profile. But from what you have said here, the things you've mentioned seem rather superficial. I long for the social closeness there is in some wards and isn't in others, but that doesn't change the spiritual truths I feal.