KosherXMorg Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Court: Sect children should be returned to parents 19 minutes ago AUSTIN, Texas - The Texas Supreme Court has ruled that children taken from a polygamist sect's ranch should be returned to their parents, saying child welfare officials overstepped their authority. ADVERTISEMENT The high court on Thursday affirmed a decision last week by an appeals court that said Child Protective Services failed to show an immediate danger to the more than 400 children swept up from the Yearning For Zion Ranch nearly two months ago. The ruling directs a lower-court judge to reverse her decision putting the children into foster case. The appeals court ordered the judge to return the children to the parents soon but it is unclear exactly when that will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Thank you for the information Kosher.I wonder how long it will take for those poor children to get over their ordeal, if they ever do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Thank you for the information Kosher.I wonder how long it will take for those poor children to get over their ordeal, if they ever do.Even if they didn't before these kids will surely not trust the government now. I'm sure you've seen the interviews with 60 year-old women who were children during the Short Creek Raid, they are STILL traumatized 55 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I've never even heard of the Short Creek Raid. I'm in the UK and ignorant of much of US recent history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I've never even heard of the Short Creek Raid. I'm in the UK and ignorant of much of US recent history.Google "Short Creek Raid"In 1953 the government did the same thing to this group of people. Shipping kids off to foster "care" and throwing men and women in jail. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I just did and was alarmed to read that the LDS church seemed to support the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I just did and was alarmed to read that the LDS church seemed to support the action. Yes, ole' Heber J. didn't like them plygs. At least they haven't gone that far this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Even if they didn't before these kids will surely not trust the government now. I'm sure you've seen the interviews with 60 year-old women who were children during the Short Creek Raid, they are STILL traumatized 55 years later.Unless they are mentally ill, how on earth could an adult with free agency be so traumatized for something a half century earlier?Normal human beings are a bit more resilient than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 I just did and was alarmed to read that the LDS church seemed to support the action. I would hope that the Church supports upholding the laws of the land. - they do and thank goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 This decision strikes me as forcibly as that picture of Warren Jeffs holding twelve year old Loretta in his arms and passionately kissing her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendadryPerc Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 I think it isn't so much what happens to you, as much as how much that differs from what you're used to. This is another point that hits home with these kids. If they were as isolated as they say they were, if they were homeschooled with stay at home moms, (I realize they had a communal school, so maybe this part isn't so bad), then the shock of being away from mom for the first time would be tremendous. Whereas your average, been being babysat by "stangers" since they were 3 months old, kid, that is shipped off to public school every day, would probably adjust much better, or at least not be quite as completely hysterical at the whole idea. Perception of the world is based on past experiences, there is little else individuals have to base it on. It is hard to imagine the forced seperation of ones family for 2 years, to not have an effect on a person for the rest of their life. Also, one may not feel they are traumatized by something, untill they find themselves in a particular situation that makes the past relevent. Perhaps you have not experienced, or come to a point in your adult life where it is extremely relevent, forced seperation from your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendadryPerc Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 I believe the churches stance on the current situation has been nothing more than miraculous. The church has a strong stance of not taking sides politically, but only teaching priciples. As much as almost all involved on either side were visiously drug through the mud, and much unhappiness has existed because of hatred and lack of forgiveness, it is a miracle the church has been able to stay out of it as much as they have, and not only remain neutral, but the media has not even been able to profit from trying to say otherwise. Considering it all, it is a miracle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendadryPerc Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 lol, I haven't adressed the real topic of this thread yet! Yes, as I understand, the worst of it is over! If CPS comes up with some way to keep the kids, it will not be by calling their belief system abuse. That was the worst of the many disputed crimes committed here. (at least that is how I understand the ruling - bookmeister?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Unless they are mentally ill, how on earth could an adult with free agency be so traumatized for something a half century earlier?Normal human beings are a bit more resilient than that. Oh come on...if you listen to those daytime talk shows it seems women on those shows and in the audience are traumatized if their husbands leave the toilet seat up at night.On the point about lifelong hatred of the government though, I remember seeing an interview with Alfred Hitchcock. He said that when he was 5 years old he took a piece of candy from a store and when his dad noticed what he did he thought it would be a good lesson to have a cop pretend to arrest him and took him to the station (in the England of those days I guess cops had time to spare). He was so terrified by the ordeal that he developed a lifelong phobia of cops -- breaking out in a sweat if a cop car was behind him on the road. And in all his movies the police are portrayed negatively.Now imagine some Boss Hogg-like police department coming in, tank and all as well as automatic weapons, and seizing you from your home and family. I would be incredibley shocked if one of these kids didn't grow up to be another Timothy McVeigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Unless they are mentally ill, how on earth could an adult with free agency be so traumatized for something a half century earlier?Normal human beings are a bit more resilient than that.Young children removed from the only home and security they have ever known in a frightening situation involving guns and armoured vehicles. Then being promised that their mothers would come back for them only to find that their mothers didn't come back (they were not allowed to - they were sent back to the ranch) and then being fostered in a home where the lifestyle was totally alien. You think they can just shrug that off and 'get over it'?You may never have seen many people who came back from wartime prison camps who appear on the surface to be 'normal' but who wake in the night screaming and bathed in sweat. They are adults. They have their free agency. They are a darn site more resilient than the ones who just commit suicide rather than try to cope - but life is never the same and I find it difficult to understand how you could be so heartless.I would say it's the normal human beings who are affected and the ones who aren't are the abnormal ones - like those poor kids in Romanian orphanages who were so resilient they didn't know how to show any emotion at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Young children removed from the only home and security they have ever known in a frightening situation involving guns and armoured vehicles. Then being promised that their mothers would come back for them only to find that their mothers didn't come back (they were not allowed to - they were sent back to the ranch) and then being fostered in a home where the lifestyle was totally alien. You think they can just shrug that off and 'get over it'?You may never have seen many people who came back from wartime prison camps who appear on the surface to be 'normal' but who wake in the night screaming and bathed in sweat. They are adults. They have their free agency. They are a darn site more resilient than the ones who just commit suicide rather than try to cope - but life is never the same and I find it difficult to understand how you could be so heartless.I would say it's the normal human beings who are affected and the ones who aren't are the abnormal ones - like those poor kids in Romanian orphanages who were so resilient they didn't know how to show any emotion at all. Like I have said, Texas better be prepared for some HUGE lawsuits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Texas CPS officials react to court's ruling that children must be returned to parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Texas CPS officials react to court's ruling that children must be returned to parents.HAHAHHAHASorry, I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but that was funny, Bravo Fiannan, nicely done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Texas Court answers concerns of abuse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 This decision strikes me as forcibly as that picture of Warren Jeffs holding twelve year old Loretta in his arms and passionately kissing her.Where is it shown that she is 12 years-old? CPS has already shown it is very inept at guessing the ages of FLDS women. BTW, Warren Jeffs is 6'7" just about anyone would appear short next to him, so we can't judge it by her size in the picture. Either way it doesn't matter Warren Jeffs is in jail and Texas has yet to prove anything besides polygamy occurred at the YFZ Ranch. If they want to make a case against Jeffs, go ahead, but this is about these families not him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Where is it shown that she is 12 years-old? SAN ANGELO, Texas - A single photograph introduced in court Friday could define Texas' case against a polygamous sect: FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs cradling a 12-year-old girl in his arms and kissing her, a state attorney said, "how a husband would kiss a wife." FLDS: Photos heat up Texas court fight - Salt Lake TribuneThe Kiss Of Jeffs - May 27, 2008They have since obscured her face in the photos and changed her name to protect her status as a twelve year old minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 SAN ANGELO, Texas - A single photograph introduced in court Friday could define Texas' case against a polygamous sect: FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs cradling a 12-year-old girl in his arms and kissing her, a state attorney said, "how a husband would kiss a wife." FLDS: Photos heat up Texas court fight - Salt Lake TribuneThe Kiss Of Jeffs - May 27, 2008They have since obscured her face in the photos and changed her name to protect her status as a twelve year old minor.Yes, I have read the news stories. But how are they determining and who determined that she is, in fact, 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosherXMorg Posted May 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Yes, I have read the news stories. But how are they determining and who determined that she is, in fact, 12?Ah, the famed "Bishop's Record". But like I said in my earlier post... this isn't about Warren Jeff's, if they want to, pursue HIM in criminal court. This raid was about the children of these specific families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Arresting one specific person for a specific case which can be investigated and probably/possibly proved is one thing - deciding on the strength of that and one unsubstantiated phone-call that the whole community was abusing their children is an entirely different thing.Incidentally the girl in Warren Jeff's arms doesn't look like she is objecting to his embrace. However, if she is/was only 12 then I agree that he should not have 'married' her that young whether the marriage was consumated or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have just received an email from my cousin in California with links to a newspaper article in which there are some letters from Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center staff, in San Angelo, Texas who 'assisted FLDS victims of CPS abuse in San Angelo shelters'. I don't know if it's possible or permissible to put the link on here but those reports just made me cry. The way the women and children were herded and treated is exactly like the way the Nazis treated the concentration camp victims when rounding them up and the conditions they were forced to live in. That was not a misguided comment earlier by another board member. How can a civilised country behave in this manner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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